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The best YouTubers are data heads, bro. Anything above 50% on the retention graph at the three second mark will be a great performing video. Social has shifted the entire landscape for even how they're producing movies in Hollywood where you have to get someone's attention in five minutes or you're going to lose them. [SPEAKER_01] Who understands their consumer the best and can make something that will resonate emotionally with them in the moment?
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[SPEAKER_02] We're all competing with the machines. You got to be able to beat the person that's giving the input to the machine.
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And so as a brand, you should be thinking about that. That's how you're going to win. So I want to start with one of the first things that I've been thinking about is this idea of being early on social.
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You're so early on social. I was very early on social where probably at the time when you started on social, brands were paying, shelling out only two grand and you were running social. You're the content creator. You're doing strategy. You're managing the community at the time. You were doing everything for roughly two grand, right? Those same individuals that were the social media managers are now the CMOs. They're now the creative directors. They're playing a C-suite level or executives at some of these brands. When you're looking at brands hiring, or helping brands hire the right talent, what are the top individuals that are currently on the market?
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And who do you think is going to be the most important looking at this year? I think that the most recent thing that's happening is this head of social role. Yeah, but if you take it, if you zoom out. [SPEAKER_01] Every brand, you know this—every brand is now acting more like an entertainment company. [SPEAKER_01] So when you go into entertainment, it's like what are all the roles that act more like a production team? [SPEAKER_01] And so those are now going within brands.
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So you typically would not see a creative director, art director, set designer inside of a brand. Those would be external agencies that are coming in and doing it. And now brands are actually looking to bring it in-house because they're doing so much creative because it's the thing that's getting them into culture. So this new role that's been popping up, and for the people that are listening, we go and help brands build out their own social team. So typically what we would do is hire these creators that understand how to make individual videos and these brands will hire them for their own team.
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But what we started noticing is creators will go in and, as you just said, they would start as a social media manager or a content creator. And then after six months the brand would come back to us and be like, "Yo, this person is now running a team of creators." So that's what's happening. Brands are realizing, "Oh, we don't just want one creator and we don't just want one consistent face. We actually want this rotating cast or this always-on creative team." And so we need somebody to architect this and oversee it and build a strategy around all these different people. So that's the role that I think everybody's looking for right now.
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What would be the description for the head of social? Because head of social has existed for the last, call it, eight to ten years. But it's shifted. That individual is completely different now than it was even three years ago. [SPEAKER_02] And then even where social is going, where we're saying it's more like we're building our own Netflix studios internally. [SPEAKER_02] We're building our own Peacock studios internally. [SPEAKER_02] What are the what is the description of that role? What are they doing day to day?
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I think it depends on the brand. And the way that I look at it is the typical head of social in the past would oversee creative, but they also would oversee budgeting and they would be really on the analytical side as well. I actually think we're going to get into a world where the head of social is way more like a creative director. So it's all the visual touch points—whether that's what influencers are we working with? What do our events look like so that people that go to them take photos of it? [SPEAKER_01] What is our content series? [SPEAKER_01] Who are the people that we're bringing in-house to do this? [SPEAKER_01] That's the role that they're going to go into.
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So it depends on the brand. Some companies still are like, "We need this person to do all this and we need this person to do all the budgeting, forecasting, and management of it." But then you have brands that are like, "We literally just want this person to act more like a creative director, art director." That's the way that I would lean because I think you remove a lot of the talent if you're having this person oversee that because a lot of these creators don't want to do any of the management side. So I would lean way more into the creative and find the best people at that and then find somebody in tech and a lot of things that can do the analytical side.
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All right. So over the last two years of building Nibble and shipping nearly 8,000 UGC ads and getting performance data, it became clear. There were two types of brands: those that understand creative volume and testing and those that don't. The core difference was what they focused on. Brands that focused on volume and hit rate didn't have to constantly complain about Meta changing the algorithm. Their stuff just worked. And anytime we did work with one of those savvy brands, it was always on the same platform—Motion. Motion is by far the best tool to optimize your creative pipeline.
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[SPEAKER_00] It provides structure, visibility, and the exact insights your growth team needs to make more informed decisions. [SPEAKER_00] I like to think of it as what Meta would show you if they actually cared about your success. [SPEAKER_00] All of the key metrics like three seconds, stop rate, average watch time, winning angles, formats, competitive research—it's all built into their platform so you can make quicker and better decisions.
SPEAKER_00
They even just launched their new A.I. agent Run It, which functions as a creative strategist working for you 24/7 providing recommendations to the ad account. So if you're a brand prioritizing Meta this year and you want to get your performance creative dialed in, I highly recommend you go over to motionapp.com. Sign up, get a trial. You're going to love it. It's the most insightful platform you can use to run your ads. Tell them we sent you. All right. Back to the show. So something that I've been talking a lot about is social has shifted to the point where social is now the nucleus for a brand. Right. It's the core of every other channel.
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And what I mean by that is it's so key to have an analytical person in social that's looking at every aspect of a video. So if I have a content pillar that's centered around education and I have X, Y, Z episodes, but I'm actually looking at every single hook and seeing which one performs best, but then relaying that information to email, SMS, paid landing pages, and the landing page copy. That's a completely different operating system and one that is extremely efficient. We did a seminar, we had a webinar today and we were talking about how efficient teams have to be to win now. Right.
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Right. It's the core of every other channel. And what I mean by that, it's so key to have an analytical personal and social that's looking at every aspect of a video. So if I have a content pillar that's centered around education and I have X, Y, Z episodes, but I'm actually looking at every single hook and seeing which one performs best, but then relaying that information to email, SMS, paid landing pages and the landing page copy. That's a completely different operating system and one that is extremely efficient. We did a seminar, we had a webinar today and we were talking about how efficient teams have to be to win now. Right. And when you can look at social from that lens of, hey, this is, yes, this is a creative center, but it's also a data center. It shifts how the whole team operates because teams are so used to operating in these silos where it's like, yo, I'm the email guy. I'm just focused on the 10 emails or the 15, 20 emails I got to get out today. But if email all of a sudden is working with social and social is like, yo, these are the top performing pieces of content. Here's how you can repackage them or repurpose them for email. Do you not feel like that's come just because of organic now?
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[SPEAKER_02] Yeah, completely because of organic. Everything is tested through organic. Then you can see, and you do these, this is what we're going to get into these social shows. You can test these small pilots, couple of feed posts, couple of reels. And then that gives you the actual data to show we should double down on this and invest more and build into bigger campaigns. Email and all that stuff. Everything for me starts on social or organic when I say social. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where in the past, everything started paid. And the problem though was it started paid, but it only lived in paid and it never worked its way down. Like again, every once in a while, you'd talk to a team that was dialed and everybody was operating in a way where they were connecting the dots together. But organic has shifted it where, again, if you know what you're doing and if you're looking at the content correctly, it will feed every other channel and everything else will work much more efficiently because of it. Bandit running is a great example of an entire world and ecosystem on every single channel. There's also a lot of brands where they're one way on organic social, and then they're a completely different way on paid and a completely different way on email and SMS. Whereas if I almost look at organic as the script for the movie and then the rest of the parts or all the different channels, it completely shifts how I'm going to approach every single channel.
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[SPEAKER_01] Because the other thing is, you have unlimited touch points on social. Yeah. If I want to publish 50 stories a month or a hundred stories a month, I can. If I want to have close friends, you use leverage close friends or broadcast channels or in feed posts, et cetera, that could be a hundred plus touch points a month. Or even more, right? It depends on your scale. But if my touch points across other channels, if I'm leveraging all that to then convert them in email, but then my email feels like a completely different experience. I'm cooked.
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[SPEAKER_02] I was just going to say it almost feels like the thing that you just posted with T-Y-R of how the campaign is that is the storyline that you architect. And then that same storyline is now looked at as, okay, how do we communicate this in all of these different touch points? So email, what does that look like in an email campaign? Social show, what does that look like in a campaign in a social show? Feed post, single carousel, how, what are the derivatives of that storyline? All coming from social, from social first. Yeah. That's really interesting because for me, just the way that people scroll now, you need to be seen more than one time for somebody to actually have an interest in the product. And so if you're thinking about, okay, well, where are all these places that this person could reach us?
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[SPEAKER_01] Telling that same story to them from seeing it in a carousel to then seeing it in a reel, to then seeing an influencer green screening it, talking about the storyline, to then being in the newsletter and getting something like that. That's the way that you're actually going to pull somebody out.
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[SPEAKER_02] Yes. And again, I just think the brands missed the mark on this. They'll work so hard on a campaign and they won't think about all the other touch points and how they should all essentially build off the last one. So I don't want to toot our own horn by any means with the tier campaign, but when you receive, when you were an influencer and you received the seating box, the seating box was filled with receipts.
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[SPEAKER_01] Because that was one of the campaigns, the shoes literally lived on receipts. And then the outside of it was a receipt machine, printing into the box. Cool. Right. And it was all based off the campaign, "The Work is the Way." And then one of the things, one of the micro stories within it was "receipts is the proof." Right. And so it all built off that idea.
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[SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So it's smart, everything has to be part of it, especially when we think about the one missing element. I wish that we would have done something in real life. That would have been the connecting element, right? Whether it was getting all the influencers or creators to do a workout or something could have been difficult. But we did have a, I think the tier team came up with this, but they did something where, do you know who Tia Toomey is?
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[SPEAKER_02] She's the Michael Jordan of CrossFit. She won CrossFit Games six times or seven, maybe eight times or something like that. And we had something where you could scan and complete her workout because she was pregnant at the time. So we couldn't have her in the campaign, but it would have been great to have some variation with that. Something that we could have done in real life. I think that was the missing element.
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[SPEAKER_02] Okay. So tying this back to what the original question was of what brands are hiring, the person that can see that storyline. First of all, the person that could come up with that storyline, but then the person that can see that storyline and understand what are all of these ways that we connect this story into culture from our own creative to external creative, influencers, events, all that.
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And we had something like you could scan and complete her workout because she was pregnant at the time. So we couldn't have her in the campaign, but it would have been great to have some variation with that. Something that we could have done in real life. I think that's the missing element. Okay. So tying this back to what the original question was of what brands are hiring, the person that can see that storyline.
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First of all, the person that could come up with that storyline, but then the person that can see that storyline and understand what are all of these ways that we connect this story into culture from our own creative to external creative influencers, events, all that. That's the thing that everybody's missing. That's the thing that everybody's looking for. [SPEAKER_01] And that's a resource that's really hard to find right now, which is why I think you start seeing these brands like Gap going and hiring a chief entertainment officer, where it's somebody that comes from actual entertainment that has had to do that before.
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And other verticals that is now coming into the brand world and being like, cool, I'm going to build this in house here. And I think Gap's doing a lot of really cool stuff right now. So that's what people are looking for. And it is crazy to me, the shift that we've seen because it does feel like it happened slow then all of a sudden at once where you saw brands like La La Land, Kind Cafe, where they had their drive by event or I forgot the name of it, but the drive. Drive by gratitude. Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02] Yeah. [SPEAKER_02] And then you saw Emmy Eats with ramen on the street. [SPEAKER_02] Yep. [SPEAKER_02] And then it felt like all of a sudden everybody's like, oh, I need to do the thing. [SPEAKER_02] And I know we were all advocates for it. We were talking about on social, that is the move, you got to do it. [SPEAKER_02] But it is crazy, the adoption from brands because brands typically operate so much slower where you see Gap basically building an entertainment studio in house to be able to create as many things as possible. [SPEAKER_02] It's crazy to see that shift happen and happen so fast.
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[SPEAKER_01] I think the reason for that is the adoption of social itself.
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Most people are spending six, seven, eight hours a day scrolling.
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[SPEAKER_01] And I would say that we live in a world right now where novelty is a big thing. [SPEAKER_01] Everybody's always looking for what's new, what can give me a quick rush of some sort of emotion. [SPEAKER_01] And so that is why the drop culture just as an entire strategy in general, not even just with content, but brands that are coming out with new limited runs of things because it appeals to the novelty of the consumer. [SPEAKER_01] That I think has now gone into social shows as well or social content as well. [SPEAKER_01] So it's like I want to see new things that are interesting to me that the algorithm is going to serve up.
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[SPEAKER_01] And so when brands are thinking about it, typically before it was like, OK, we have this is our brand and here's what we post and we post at this cadence and we just let that rock and hope that it works. [SPEAKER_01] Now it's like the way that it's done is it has to be something that's in the moment going to be relevant that the audience is going to want to watch. So you have to pay attention to what their interests are.
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[SPEAKER_02] So you're building campaigns around all of that.
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[SPEAKER_01] And so I think the adoption of everything has had to move much faster. And so brands are like, OK, well, if we want to be relevant, we need to do social. What's happening on social? I'm seeing things like Brooklyn Coffee Shop and Gimmie Ramen and Drive by Gratitude and all of these short shows. OK, we need to do those. And the other thing on that is you can do them quick.
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[SPEAKER_02] Campaign, traditional campaigns, three months, six months, we're going to build this whole thing out. [SPEAKER_02] Then we're going to take a month to film it and then we're going to edit it and post it. [SPEAKER_02] These people can flip a show in a weekend, single day, book something out, batch eight episodes, edit over a weekend and get it out. [SPEAKER_02] And it's more affordable, too. So I think it's a good testing ground for brands, which is why a lot of them are adopting it. And I think there's actually the good from AI is the fact that AI killed the middle ground of content.
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That middle ground where some people are like, yeah, I got 30 posts ready in the queue. And they're thinking about it through the lens of did we publish 30 times? [SPEAKER_01] AI killed that brand, and they killed that type of content because anybody can make that now versus what we're talking about, where we're thinking about through the lens of social first and making the best possible content that they can't compete with the casting. They can't compete with the storytelling. That's why storytelling has gotten so important as well. If we're all competing with the machines, you got to be able to beat the person that's giving the input to the machine.
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And at that point, it's like, who's the better storyteller who could come up with the better ideas, who could come up with the better concepts. And that has accelerated the game. But I think it's a good thing. I fully agree. The whole game over the next couple of years is going to be who understands their consumer the best and can make something that will resonate emotionally with them in the moment. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So another role that I think brands are going to be looking for, this has not actually started happening yet.
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[SPEAKER_01] But I actually think that the two things that people are going to start looking for, one is this creative director head of social kind of person that is art directing everything visual touch points, getting people interested in the brand. [SPEAKER_01] The other one is a cultural strategist. So what that is for me is who are the people that our audience appeals to or who are the people that our product appeals to and where are they in the world and who do they look up to and how do we become friends with them and get them into our ecosystem.
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[SPEAKER_01] So I think I was just talking about Adidas just did this campaign and they had ten different celebrities that are in the campaign. [SPEAKER_01] And typically a brand is going and hiring one celebrity to be the poster of their campaign. [SPEAKER_01] But Adidas is going into all of these different realms of communities. [SPEAKER_01] So they had Kendall Jenner. They have Samuel L. Jackson. They had Olivia Dean. [SPEAKER_01] They have they bring in a comedian to do a social show and all of those people have their own communities that are different communities from one another.
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[SPEAKER_01] All have different cultures. Exactly. And they're tapping into the campaign. They're tapping into all of each other's cultures. [SPEAKER_01] So they're like Samuel L. Jackson has his own scene. Olivia Dean has her own scene. This skateboarder. [SPEAKER_01] I can't remember his name has his own scene. And all of those things are things that the audience, that person's community resonates with. Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02] And I think that the creative director. So I see a world where there ends up being right now. This is all one person right now.
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[SPEAKER_01] They bring in a comedian to do a social show and all of those people have their own communities that are different from one another. All have different cultures. Exactly. And they're tapping into the campaign. They're tapping into all of each other's cultures. So they have Samuel L. Jackson has his own scene. Olivia Dean has her own scene. This skateboarder. I can't remember his name has his own scene. And all of those things are things that that audience, that person's community resonates with. Yeah.
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And I think that the creative director. So I see a world where there ends up being right now. This is all one person right now. You need to know the culture. You need to know the content. You need to know the creative. And you've got to create all that show. I see a world where brands as they become more and more like an entertainment company hire somebody that is the person that is going to be directing all of the content. Artistic lens. How do we actually showcase ourself in the world? But I see somebody else that actually has to understand the world and be like, OK, but why should we do this? And who does this appeal to? And then cool. Now you can help me make that and decide what that looks like. But these are the people that our audience really cares about. Can I swear? Yeah. These are the people that our audience really cares about. And this is why we should be friends with them. And here's the things that they'll actually care about and getting in touch with those people. So those are the two different things that I think. It's almost like someone that understands how to build bridges back to the brand. Relationships. Right. Through cultures. Relationships. Like I look at right now, brands have a community manager. Your community manager right now is literally a customer service rep that happens to answer DMs and puts people in a spreadsheet. The way I think a community manager should be, what I think is more of a cultural strategist or a head of culture is literally somebody that is in DMs all day in emails and DMs in text and is just building up the Rolodex of context that the brand should have of people that we should be friends with that should be at our events, that should be in our campaigns that we should be supporting in whatever they're doing in their life. And this is our network. And I think that right now is looked at as a very entry level job. And I actually think that relationships are going to get more and more important. And so the person that has that Rolodex is going to be really valuable to the brands that could use it. So you almost think the community managers are where the head of social or the social media manager was maybe five, ten years ago in a way?
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Community manager right now. Right now, the two jobs that I think are really leveling up is social media manager before was coming up with all content and creating. That is now moving way more executive level into creative director, head of social, director of social.
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[SPEAKER_01] The other one is community manager, which was literally, yeah, I'm the person you're DMing. Sometimes it's social media manager, but before it's also a lot of community manager. I'm just the person you're DMing and I'm doing a lot of customer service like, hey, where's my order? That kind of thing. I think that's moving way upstream as well. That'll also be executive where it's like, this is a person that is trying to get us into culture. And it'll start with somebody that's doing it fractional, just a person that, you know, both of us are people that would be connectors. Friends with people, enjoy relationships, enjoy meeting people. I think it'll probably start with individuals that really just enjoy that and brands bringing them in and being like, yo, who is a person that relates well with our brand that you can connect us to? But I think eventually that's a full in-house role that you're spending all of your time on the brand that you're really trying to build out that network in that world around the company. This goes into what you and I were talking about a little bit off camera where the relationship with influencers and creators has changed as well. Where in the past, you know, they would see JT, they'd see Alex and just be like, hey, I need three deliverables from you. And so I need you to, here's a brief, make content in your voice, whatever. Versus now it's like, hey, this is going to be a character of our brand, even if it's for a limited time. And we're going to build or give them our creative team to let them take the reins and make a piece of content that puts us into culture. You made a video about that in the series that he did with All Saints. And I think that's a prime example of where it's going. How do you see that landscape shifting?
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[SPEAKER_01] I think I see it shifting into that person on the team that understands culture, being able to identify somebody like a bat and say, yo, we don't need to give him creative direction because he has an audience that's going to resonate with us and our product. And he's talented. So just here you go, bat, which is what they did. And it crushed. And I think that that series that he did with All Saints is a prime example of a brand testing a pilot series, five, six episodes, full creative freedom to the person that's running the series. And it actually really resonates and lands well. I thought those videos are awesome. They were great. Yeah. I thought they were so good. It was great. The composition was great. Everything was good. It fit his brand well too. I think that. I think that'll happen a lot more.
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[SPEAKER_01] I do too. I think that's going to be the shift where you'll start seeing these creators as almost like characters. Even if it's a character could come in a movie comes in and sometimes it gets killed off, you know, and that's perfectly fun. Or they're in for part of the movie just for 30 minutes. Yeah. Wait, so I just had, this just came to me. What I actually think is going to happen is the brands that can, it comes down to budget, but let's say you have unlimited budget. I actually think what will happen is when you're building out a full campaign for let's call it a shoe launch. When you're building out that campaign, part of the creative brief is going to be your own team. What can we actually execute with our in-house content team or the agency that represents our brand? Outside of that, it's going to be who culturally can we tap into that has a similar audience that would like our product? So I actually think that something like a bat doing that six part series. I think we're going to see a lot more of those as part of a macro campaign from a bigger brand that can invest in that. And rather than it being just a one-off standalone show, it's actually like bat or that talent that's doing it is integrating the shoe into their series.
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But it's not just a standalone one-off thing. It's actually part of a bigger campaign. What can we actually execute with our in-house content team or the agency that represents our brand? [SPEAKER_01] Outside of that, it's going to be who culturally can we tap into that has a similar audience that would like our product? [SPEAKER_01] So I actually think that something like a bat doing that six part series. [SPEAKER_01] I think we're going to see a lot more of those as part of a macro campaign from a bigger brand that can invest in that.
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And rather than it being just a one-off standalone show, it's actually like bat or that talent that's doing it is integrating the shoe into their series. [SPEAKER_02] But it's not just a standalone one-off thing. [SPEAKER_02] It's actually part of a bigger campaign. [SPEAKER_02] And I think the brand will go to five, ten different people and do shows with five or ten different people and have that be a way that it gets into the culture with all of those different audiences. I think that's going to happen.
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I think the other thing that you're going to see is brands are going to pay a creator a significant amount of money to host a social show on a completely different account that is centered around one idea. I forget what, I don't know if it's an AI brand or if, I forget what brand it is, but they have this girl who does these whiteboard sessions on a completely separate account and it's all educational content. That account probably has 100,000 followers now and it all feeds back to. It's almost like if Roomies, Roomies, Roomies was created by a travel creator and was feeding back to Airbnb. I don't think that's going to happen in 2026.
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I think maybe a few brands will start testing it, but I think there's a real opportunity there to give creators large budgets to create these shows, have them on different accounts, and feed back the main account.
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[SPEAKER_01] 100% agreed. [SPEAKER_01] I think every brand is going to be looked at as a network.
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You're going to look at yourself as we are a production company.
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[SPEAKER_01] What do you call it? [SPEAKER_01] Let's even just call it a television network. We have all these different shows that we actually produce, but then I think the reason why I go into budget is when you're running that P&L, you're thinking about, okay, is it better for us to spend on it in-house and do it ourselves with the team that we have? [SPEAKER_01] Or is it better for us to spend on somebody else that can do it and already has an existing show or they can create a new show that collaborates with us? [SPEAKER_01] And I think we're going to see a lot of that.
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[SPEAKER_01] So when you're building out the whole thing, it'll be partially owned shows that you're launching, which I think ClickUp does a really good job of. [SPEAKER_01] They do. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, so they have like four or five different accounts and all of their accounts collaborate with the main account when they post them.
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But then if I'm ClickUp, I'm also thinking about, okay, who is not internal with us that has a similar audience or is talented in a way that we would want to work with them? That they can make something that doesn't even necessarily need to be owned by us, but can integrate our products into. And I think that that will be another piece of the puzzle. All right. So over the last two years of building Nibble, shipping nearly 8,000 UGC ads and getting performance data, it became super clear. There were two types of brands, those that understand creative volume and testing and those that don't. The core difference was what they focused on.
SPEAKER_01
Brands that focused on volume and hit rate didn't have to constantly complain about meta changing the algorithm. [SPEAKER_02] Their stuff just worked. [SPEAKER_02] And anytime we did work with one of those savvy brands, it was always on the same platform. [SPEAKER_02] Motion. [SPEAKER_02] Motion is by far the best tool to optimize your creative pipeline. [SPEAKER_02] It provides structure, visibility, and the exact insights your growth team needs to make more informed decisions. [SPEAKER_02] I like to think of it as what meta would show you if they actually cared about your success.
SPEAKER_01
[SPEAKER_02] All of the key metrics like three second stop rate, average watch time, winning angles, formats, competitive research. [SPEAKER_02] It's all built into their platform so you can make quicker and better decisions. They even just launched their new AI agent, Runneth, which functions as a creative strategist working for you 24-7 providing recommendations to the ad account. So if you're a brand prioritizing meta this year and you want to get your performance creative dialed in, I highly recommend you go over to motionapp.com. Sign up, get a trial. You're going to love it. It's the most insightful platform you can use to run your ads. Tell them we sent you.
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[SPEAKER_01] All right, back to the show. The main account's almost becoming the HQ. [SPEAKER_01] And then all the other accounts are like supporting offices coming back, feeding back to the HQ. [SPEAKER_01] It's almost the shift that I see happening. [SPEAKER_01] And don't get me wrong, people want to follow the main HQ account. But the reality is if I only want to get a certain type of content from a brand, I am only going to follow that account. [SPEAKER_01] Salomon doing lifestyle content on a completely different brand. [SPEAKER_01] I might not want the ultra stuff, but I might want the streetwear stuff.
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[SPEAKER_01] Yeah. [SPEAKER_01] And that relationship now exists because of how the algorithm works. The new concept for consumer brands, it's not a new concept in total. A really easy way to understand it is ESPN. Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02] Some people follow ESPN because they love sports and they want to see all the news. But if you're a soccer fan, you're going to go and follow ESPN soccer, ESPN football, ESPN hockey, ESPN whatever, because you want that tailored specific idea or concept or sport or whatever that just hits that. Same thing for brands. Main account, everything. They can follow that. But then if they really like the interview series, they can go follow the interview series. If they like the whiteboarding thing, if they like the vlogging thing, those can be separate ones. And the reason why that's strategic for the brand is because the algorithm. It's all interest based.
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So if you try to do that on your main account and have everything where it's different video for a different audience, different video for a different audience, different video for a different audience, none of those are going to work. Yeah. I know you know those. [SPEAKER_02] Publishers a trial reel and let the trial reel essentially let the algorithm go find the person because it's shown it's a completely different person. [SPEAKER_02] It will perform a lot of times significantly better than publishing on the main account. [SPEAKER_02] There's a handful of brands that we've tested series and done that. That makes sense to me. Right.
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Brand owned audience that it's getting shown to at the beginning doesn't resonate with it, but a brand new audience does. So they actually get some more traction. Do those reels perform long term? Do they keep ripping? Yeah. Really interesting. Yeah. [SPEAKER_02] because it's shown it's a completely different person. [SPEAKER_02] It will perform a lot of times significantly better than publishing on the main account. [SPEAKER_02] There's a handful of brands that we've tested series and done that. That makes sense to me. Right. Brand owned audience that it's getting shown to at the beginning doesn't resonate with it, but brand new audience does.
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So actually get some more traction. Do those reels perform long term? Do they keep ripping? Yeah. Really interesting. Yeah. Do you bring it back to the feed? And then does it stop? No, it'll continue performing well, but it's not going to have the climb that you think it'll have. Yeah. [SPEAKER_00] Because it starts getting shown to the people that aren't initially interested in it.
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[SPEAKER_00] Something I don't think that people talk about enough and it's what we'll talk about with social shows is expectation setting.
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[SPEAKER_00] If for the past five years you've set an expectation that you don't care about social and you haven't and you publish boring content and then all of a sudden you're like, we're going to take it serious now. [SPEAKER_00] It's not going to happen overnight. [SPEAKER_00] I've been expecting a certain thing from you for so long. [SPEAKER_00] So for you to come in and switch it up and almost set new expectations is going to take time for me to adopt.
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[SPEAKER_00] As a consumer. [SPEAKER_00] As a consumer. [SPEAKER_00] Versus we look at the Brooklyn Coffee Shops, but it's like Brooklyn Coffee Shop came out the gate with Brooklyn Coffee Shop.
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[SPEAKER_00] So they set the expectation from day one. [SPEAKER_00] But if it's day 2,432 and you're finally taking it serious, I don't. [SPEAKER_00] And I know that because I'll look at average watch time from some of these brands with four or 500,000 followers. [SPEAKER_00] And it's three second average watch time. [SPEAKER_00] On trial reels, it'll be 12, 15 second average watch time. [SPEAKER_00] And so you can literally just look at like, oh, these people don't expect good content from you. [SPEAKER_00] What is that though? [SPEAKER_00] What's the reason?
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[SPEAKER_00] The audience is like, okay, now you're trying to be a social show company and we don't have an interest in it. [SPEAKER_02] Or is it?
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If all a brand has ever done is create product driven content.
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[SPEAKER_02] And all of a sudden they're now trying to be entertainment. [SPEAKER_02] You have to think about familiarity is so important. [SPEAKER_02] If I'm used to seeing your logo and your profile picture and expecting a thing and then you switch up what that thing is. [SPEAKER_02] I also wonder if it's a brand doing it where it actually does not resonate at all with the consumer. [SPEAKER_02] And they're just doing social to now say we're doing social. And it's. [SPEAKER_02] We're just going to do what we see. So we're just going to follow this brand. This brand did this in our category. So we're going to do this. And it's just some bullshit that no one cares about.
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I also think it's so different for the brand that's organic native versus paid native. There's brands that started on organic.
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[SPEAKER_01] They became very successful and then they started integrating paid. [SPEAKER_01] And those people, they're playing. [SPEAKER_01] They're fine. [SPEAKER_01] But the people that built their following first by running a significant amount of paid and then trying to build organic on the back end. [SPEAKER_01] That expectations. [SPEAKER_01] It's not screwed, but it's a lot harder to set. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. [SPEAKER_01] You guys switch a lot for it.
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Yeah. I think the most. The best game that you can play, though, [SPEAKER_02] if you are trying to set expectations as a social show, [SPEAKER_02] this is no different. [SPEAKER_02] Back in the day, if you and I wanted to watch Fear Factor, [SPEAKER_02] we knew what we were getting out of Fear Factor every single episode.
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Yeah.
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And we're now bringing that to social where if Brooklyn Coffee Shop, bro, the intro for Brooklyn Coffee Shop is always the same. Person opens the door.
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[SPEAKER_01] It chimes.
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The baristas are doing something. They look down. Right. [SPEAKER_02] There's a clear expectation.
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[SPEAKER_01] There's a clear hook. [SPEAKER_01] There's familiarity built into it. [SPEAKER_01] And when we talk about expectation setting TV or social shows and bringing the formats that are working on TV is that wave. And when we talk about accounts growing the fastest,
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it's because of that, because I'm following it because I just want more of this. [SPEAKER_02] And I know every single time I see this profile picture on my feed, [SPEAKER_02] I'm going to get more of it. [SPEAKER_02] I also think that, dude, we. [SPEAKER_02] People are just scrolling mindlessly. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. [SPEAKER_02] And I think you need to do things that will actually break through to an individual. [SPEAKER_02] And when you think about barrier to entry, it's anybody can go on and do a vlog. [SPEAKER_02] Anybody can go on and do a get ready with me. [SPEAKER_02] Anybody can go on and just yap into the camera.
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[SPEAKER_02] And so those have gotten a lot harder to break through with unless the substance of the video is really interesting.
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[SPEAKER_02] And I think there's something about scrolling a bunch of those and then seeing a nicely produced piece of content that looks like it took more effort to make.
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Plus, if they actually are good at social, [SPEAKER_01] the first couple seconds of it being really interesting, [SPEAKER_01] that I think it gets people to stop and actually want to watch it. [SPEAKER_01] And so that's why I'm social shows are a way to go, along with the cost of all of it.
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[SPEAKER_02] But it's really an intriguing thing. [SPEAKER_02] All the game we're playing on social is always how do you stand out in the moment. [SPEAKER_02] And I think for the last year, and I think we probably have another six months to a year, maybe a little longer before everybody starts doing these shows. But it's a way to stand out. And so as a brand, if you're trying to get attention on an algorithm that you need to stand out on, you should be thinking about doing one of those. I also think it's a way to become familiar. If everything is shock value, there's something, [SPEAKER_02] nostalgic's not the word,
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[SPEAKER_02] All the game we're playing on social is always how do you stand out in the moment. [SPEAKER_02] And I think for the last year, and I think we probably have another six months to a year, maybe a little longer before everybody starts doing these shows.
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[SPEAKER_01] But it's a way to stand out. [SPEAKER_01] And so as a brand, if you're trying to get attention on an algorithm that you need to stand out on, you should be thinking about doing one of those. [SPEAKER_01] I also think it's a way to become familiar. [SPEAKER_01] If everything is shock value, there's something, [SPEAKER_02] nostalgic's not the word, but there's something around, oh, I know what to get. [SPEAKER_02] I know, I've seen this intro five times, Subway takes. [SPEAKER_02] I always know, you know what Subway takes by the first frame [SPEAKER_01] versus if I, [SPEAKER_01] if it's,
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[SPEAKER_02] if you're always trying to weigh in on shock value, you're only, you're not even thinking about, you're looking at it through the wrong metrics. [SPEAKER_02] You're looking at it through just views. [SPEAKER_02] And versus I'm looking at it as, how can I build familiarity with this individual by having the same set, the same intro, so that people know when I pop up on the feed, they know what they're going to get from it. [SPEAKER_02] And I think there's, you're working on a bunch of social shows. [SPEAKER_02] I'm working on a bunch of social shows.
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[SPEAKER_02] People undervalue the repetitive elements and they think they have to be able to change things all the time. [SPEAKER_02] That doesn't mean don't test things, but when you find something that does work, you should repeat it. [SPEAKER_02] You have to, you should want, [SPEAKER_01] who's thinking they needed to switch things. [SPEAKER_01] But I'm saying a lot of times, brands will think that, I'm not going to name the brand, but there was a brand where we had something that was winning a ton. [SPEAKER_01] And they were like, people are going to get bored of this.
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[SPEAKER_01] People are going to, it's different. [SPEAKER_01] And I'm like, no, no, no, think about your favorite show again. [SPEAKER_01] Think about your favorite show. [SPEAKER_01] When it, I love New Girl. [SPEAKER_01] Here's my fun fact. [SPEAKER_01] I love New Girl. [SPEAKER_01] When that ended, I was distraught.
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I wanted more of New Girl.
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Right?
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[SPEAKER_02] So every time you, we can switch the whole pod into this. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, exactly. [SPEAKER_02] So I forget exactly where I was going. [SPEAKER_02] Oh, I never got bored of it. [SPEAKER_02] I just wanted more of it. [SPEAKER_02] Right. [SPEAKER_02] And so you have to think low key. [SPEAKER_02] That's a bar. [SPEAKER_02] When you think about the shows that you're creating and you think about through that same lens, people want more of it. [SPEAKER_02] Maybe they don't watch every single episode. [SPEAKER_02] Also, the majority of the people that follow you aren't seeing it. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02] So you're not going to bore people by posting the same first three seconds a hundred times a month. [SPEAKER_02] People aren't going to, most people aren't going to see it. [SPEAKER_02] If the best case scenario, if it's getting shown to all of them, that means people are loving it. [SPEAKER_02] And the worst case scenario is no one likes it and it doesn't get shown to anybody. [SPEAKER_02] So yeah, I think rip the format.
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What would have been some of the secret elements, [SPEAKER_01] secret sauce for, for you, for developing a good social show. It's a whole thing is concept packaging. Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02] What is the shit that is different in a way that actually people talk about different. [SPEAKER_02] You need to be different than what's happening in the moment. [SPEAKER_02] I don't think you necessarily need to be different. [SPEAKER_02] I think you need to be interesting to the person that you want watching it. And so if they've already seen a lot of the similarities that your show has in another show, then I think that yours is less effective. But if there's something in a completely different category that your audience hasn't seen, but that you know of, [SPEAKER_02] I don't think you need to be completely different than anything that's on the internet.
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It just needs to be a little bit, it needs to be something that really resonates with your consumer.
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[SPEAKER_02] So for the way that we go about it is, first of all, the actual way that I go about it tactically is, I have a group of other people that spend a lot of time on the internet doing shows. [SPEAKER_02] And I sit with them and I'm like, yo, what's an interesting idea that we think could work for this brand. [SPEAKER_02] So we'll come up with, we'll all toss out 50 different really dumb concepts and workshop on them together and be like, we could, we're seeing this with, for example, we're seeing this with Subway Takes.
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We like how they do the microphone as a, you know, what do you call it?
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[SPEAKER_02] A subway car. [SPEAKER_02] Subway ticket.
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Yeah. That's a subway ticket. Yo, what's an interesting idea that we think could work for this brand? So we'll come up with, we'll all toss out 50 different really dumb concepts and just workshop on them together and be like, we could, [SPEAKER_01] We're seeing this with, for example, we're seeing this with subway takes. We like how they do the microphone as a, as a, what do you call it? A subway car. Subway ticket.
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[SPEAKER_02] Yeah.
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That's a subway ticket. So there, that's an interesting element of the microphone being something. And then we'll look at the real concept of it. Going back to, I think the main part of it is the concept of it. [SPEAKER_01] What are we actually trying to have them walk away with? [SPEAKER_01] And why will this resonate with them? I'd say we spend most of the time on that. [SPEAKER_01] And then the next thing beyond that is the packaging of it.
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So what is the shots? How does it look? What's the setting of it? Where do we need to do this in a set?
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[SPEAKER_01] Who's the person that's going to be in camera? [SPEAKER_01] Who are the guests? [SPEAKER_01] How do we actually package this? [SPEAKER_01] Same.
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So many of the things that we're testing now, I don't want to give the full, I'll tell you the full sauce, [SPEAKER_02] But we're doing a lot of testing on trial reels for the actual intros. [SPEAKER_02] And how we can test these almost like. [SPEAKER_02] So you're already posting shows that are live and you're testing new episodes of them [SPEAKER_02] or you're literally not even posting anything yet? We'll do a large production, right? And we'll shoot a ton of episodes. Let's say the episode, a lot of the things we're doing are more higher production.
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[SPEAKER_01] So they take a little bit longer to cast and do all the other, build a set, et cetera. [SPEAKER_01] So what we'll do is we'll look at if the show or an episode is going to be released in five weeks, we're going to think about when we're on that production, all the different hooks and ways that we could intro it into a one shot. [SPEAKER_01] So maybe a single shot with just a VO or just a narrative that's straight to the camera and we'll test the ones that are working best and then pull that variation that was originally shot for the social show as the hook for the social show. [SPEAKER_01] Wow. [SPEAKER_01] Do you get what I'm saying?
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[SPEAKER_01] Or we could do that with a bunch of things. [SPEAKER_01] Do we start with a wide angle versus a portrait? [SPEAKER_01] And are you going and refilming?
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No, we're pre-planning though. Okay.
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[SPEAKER_01] Got it. [SPEAKER_01] And then you're just testing it and then seeing how do we edit the rest of them? [SPEAKER_01] With all the footage we just take the best variation and apply it to the intro. [SPEAKER_01] Really cool. [SPEAKER_01] Or we could do it with a bunch of stuff like that. [SPEAKER_01] Yep. [SPEAKER_01] And that's been a game changer because, brand also out the gate, they want the social show to work, but we all know how social works.
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It's hard to get something to just crack out the gate.
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[SPEAKER_01] And a lot of times, your second iteration of something is going to perform a lot better than your third, then the first one and then third better than second. [SPEAKER_01] And so we're trying to mitigate that aspect of, okay, that first month we have to get data. [SPEAKER_01] I want to know what the average watch time is. [SPEAKER_01] I want to know what the three second view rate is. How many of those videos are you posting to be able to say we have data to see what's working and what's not? What do you think that number is? For five videos. Okay, cool. But they're not hard. [SPEAKER_01] Oh, you're talking about the actual show. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah.
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Like five videos. Yeah. Five episodes should tell you all we know. And then typically our second iteration will go from getting 10 to 30,000, in that ballpark for a newer brand to then hundreds, 150 to 300 in that ballpark. So you finished first show five episodes posted the metrics that you look at to say, okay, we actually see that there's something here is 10 to 30,000 views on a video on one of those videos.
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[SPEAKER_02] We're looking at saves and shares. [SPEAKER_02] And then we're looking at three second view rate retention graph average watch time. [SPEAKER_02] And what do you view in those things as this has something for us to double down into and actually do it more? The say, if the ratio of likes to shares is significantly high, but you look at the retention graph and at three seconds, it's below 50%. [SPEAKER_02] You just have a hook problem. Right. If I've found on mine, anything above 50% on the retention graph at the three second mark will be a great performing video. We'll get hundreds of thousands of views.
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[SPEAKER_02] And so that's been a big thing of, I just need to adjust that if that's high, but then my average watch time is below 12 seconds. [SPEAKER_02] If the ratio of likes to shares is significantly high, but you look at the retention graph and at three seconds it's below 50%, you just have a hook problem. Right. If I've found on mine, anything above 50% on the retention graph at the three second mark will be a great performing video. We'll get hundreds of thousands of views. [SPEAKER_02] And so that's been a big thing of it.
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I just need to adjust that if that's high, but then my average watch time is below 12 seconds. Then I'm looking at the structure of the story or the structure of the piece. [SPEAKER_02] If I could get to 12 seconds and then I'm monitoring the average watch time every single hour and the average watch time starts climbing every single hour. I know I have a winner. And I'm sure you've seen this with your videos.
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[SPEAKER_02] If it starts at 12 seconds and it goes to 13, 14, 50, you're like, oh yeah, this is going to hit. And so that's the other elements that I'm looking at. And so if it gets stuck at the average watch time being low, then we're changing angles a lot. If it was straight on at the beginning, we're going to have three cameras and change how it's structured, things like that. For everybody that just listened to that, you are so far ahead of the rest of the world with doing these shows and the way that you're going about it. And I think very similarly to you, looking at what I'm saying is that's where the world is going. Having somebody to be able to—
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The only reason you know, the only reason that you're able to say everything you just said is because you're a creator. Yeah. [SPEAKER_02] Does that actually click for you? Because I don't know if you don't hype yourself up on that enough, but the only reason you are able to actually look at that data and know the three second rate and what's good and what's bad about it and the watch time is because you've posted 500 videos. You know? So the way that a brand becomes competitive is by having that acknowledgement that you have on the data side to then go and inform the creative for you.
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You're both in your team. You're looking at the data and then you're going and being creative. That eventually will be two different people. [SPEAKER_02] It'll be somebody that analyzes that, that then can print a report, come over and be like, this is what we saw. You need to go fix this. Wholeheartedly agree. Every brand is going to need to know how to do that. But that person that is looking at that has to come from social. It needs to be somebody that understands organic social that can then be able to go into a creative team and have that combo. [SPEAKER_02] We're two years away from most brands having that.
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Agree. I think the winners, both from a creator lens and a brand lens— [SPEAKER_02] is going to be the person that's the most analytical. The person that can go, of course, being amazingly creative helps and it's going to be a differentiator. But the fact that somebody could go in and be like, oh no, anytime we get a video to 52% retention on the graph, we have a winner. And then can actually go to the creative team and be like, let's make these adjustments. That's how you're going to win. It's changed too much. The landscape has changed too much. It's not too competitive, but it's very competitive.
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[SPEAKER_02] Yeah. The tools at our fingertips to be able to make good content are infinite now. And so the change is honestly, how obsessive can you be with the creative and what makes creative go from good to great? That's actually a really interesting idea of what I do is the beginning of the spectrum of most innovative on what brands are doing in terms of content. And not one brand has ever come to me and been like, we need a data scientist around our social shows. I agree with you 100%. And that just is a really interesting individual that will go into a brand. And it's different than most. I'm sure ESPN, Fox—
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MSNBC, like all of these people have all of that happening. Like they have people that are looking at the data of theirs and seeing, oh, when we have this word go across the screen, people click away on channels. That is yet to happen on a social team. [SPEAKER_02] And that absolutely will be a thing because you're already looking at that and turning that into creative. And right now most people are building their social teams all around creative, but actually that piece is a really interesting one to add to the mix of somebody that can go and inform. And it's not a creative strategist. It's literally a data scientist.
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[SPEAKER_01] Really interesting. And the reason that makes me think that is the best YouTubers are data heads, bro. There was one time when I was at the CMO Collective where I was in this room, one of the side rooms and Ryan Trahan was in there and he was with his team. And they were just doing a data meeting. It was when he did the penny series and I'm sitting there trying to act like I'm not paying attention while listening to everything. But bro, they were going through data at a completely different level. This was three, four years ago at a completely different level than I've ever seen.
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And I'm like, you bring that over to organic social, on Instagram, on TikTok, you're going to operate, you're going to move different. [SPEAKER_01] They were just holding a data meeting. [SPEAKER_01] It was when he did the penny series and I'm sitting there painting, trying to act like I'm not paying attention but listening to everything. [SPEAKER_01] But they were going through data at a completely different level. [SPEAKER_01] This was three, four years ago at a completely different level than I've ever seen. And I'm like, you bring that over to organic social, on Instagram, on TikTok, you're going to operate, you're going to move different, move absolutely different.
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That's sick. Yeah, that's only new for Instagram to talk about though, because if their analytics have only gotten so much more built out in a year. Yeah, it's gotten significantly better from what it used to be. [SPEAKER_01] Big time. Wow, dude. All right. [SPEAKER_01] I know that I'm the guest on this, but that's good stuff. [SPEAKER_01] Thank you. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, thank you. Thank you. [SPEAKER_01] Well, I want to go a few layers deeper in social shows and how you're thinking about them. [SPEAKER_01] Are you thinking from a brand perspective it has to live on a different channel out the gate?
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[SPEAKER_01] How are you thinking about it should live on a different channel? [SPEAKER_01] Should we test it? [SPEAKER_01] It depends on the audience. [SPEAKER_01] If your audience is the exact same as the audience of the show, cool, it goes on the same channel. [SPEAKER_01] I think the interesting thing about the different one is what I've started noticing is when you do these shows, if these shows actually hit, it can ladder up into a much bigger thing. [SPEAKER_01] For example, experiential is really big for brands now, getting people in person.
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And experiential is big because it's not just a play of getting individuals in person to tangibly feel the product, but it's actually much more of a thing for people to take photos of your product and the brand and tag them on social, which is why a lot of brands are hosting more events and bringing influencers to them. The first wave is the people at the event actually experiencing it. But the second wave of it is them posting it socially and all of those people seeing it. So the interesting thing about these social shows is the way I look at it is it can be a pilot for a much bigger campaign for a brand.
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So if you do a five part social series and you get real traction, then you can think about it as a full on campaign. So if you name a show, like "The Mile," and it's about a dude walking in shoes and that really hits, and you actually see from the data side people are really resonating with this and the comment section is talking about it, then you can be like, why don't we host an event called "The Mile," have our show be featured at it or filmed at it, or the cast of the show be there, and it just ladder up into a bigger campaign. So that's why I think it's smart to do a separate account rather than just doing it all in one. [SPEAKER_01] I'm there with you.
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I do think you test on the main account if you can, and if you have an engaged audience, see what has the potential to scale and then scale it into the different account. [SPEAKER_01] Like Matt Choi, I feel like his mile challenge should be a separate account. As an example. [SPEAKER_01] I think there's a lot of people that love Matt Choi's mile challenge and would love to just follow that account. Yeah, because it also gives you the ability to scale without consequences. Here's another thing.
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[SPEAKER_02] The algorithm is only going to show a certain amount of your content to your audience, even if they like every video.
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[SPEAKER_01] So think about this. [SPEAKER_01] If you post 10 times a day and your audience is obsessed with your content, they watch every single thing that you post. [SPEAKER_01] The algorithm is the platform of Meta and TikTok trying to think about how do we keep people on this platform for the longest period of time. [SPEAKER_01] The way that it works is even if your content is good, it's only going to show a certain number of your best performing things to that person. [SPEAKER_01] So say somebody like Matt posts four times in a day. [SPEAKER_01] And one of them is mile challenge. [SPEAKER_01] And one of them is his own video.
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[SPEAKER_01] And one of them is another static post. [SPEAKER_01] Even if his mile challenge is unbelievable, it might have shown him his static post three hours earlier, and now it's not going to show the mile challenge, even if it hits.
SPEAKER_01
But if he does that on a separate account, the algorithm doesn't know that Matt Choi owns this separate account. So even if he's going to the same audience, it could be mile challenge, static post from his main account, and then separate account be shown, or static post, whatever LC posts on a main account, and then mile challenge could be three videos later. That audience is seeing Matt now three times in their feed, but it's from different ones of his accounts.
SPEAKER_02
[SPEAKER_01] So brands, creators, whatever, if you launch multiple accounts all going after the same demo,
SPEAKER_02
[SPEAKER_01] The algorithm doesn't know that Matt Choi owns this separate account. So even if he's going to the same audience, it could be mile challenge, static post from his main account, and then separate account be shown or sorry, static post, whatever LC posts on a main account. And then mile challenge could be three videos later. That audience is seeing Matt now three times in their feed, but it's from different ones of his accounts. So brands, creators, whatever, if you launch multiple accounts all going after the same demo, you could literally be one post, one post, one post, one post, one post on their feed. You can't do that from just your one account. The other thing I want to dive into two elements there, but I think we're
SPEAKER_02
We're a few years away from this as well. But when a brand is going to operate like a network and have multiple shows on multiple accounts, those multiple accounts or sorry, those multiple shows are going to be sent around a specific customer base. [SPEAKER_00] So then when you go into meta and you have this Instagram account, [SPEAKER_01] That's all focused on maybe the outdoors individual from your brand,
SPEAKER_02
You now get to target that individual with specific brands or sorry, specific ads. Like you can get deep, very detailed targeting on your ads, knowing that this customer segment only cares about this individual. And if you're getting 20, 25, 30 million views a month from that account, think about the top of funnel retargeting on the backend there. [SPEAKER_01] Have you thought about doing that on a personal level?
SPEAKER_02
[SPEAKER_01] Yes. Multiple different channels targeting different people. Yes. You're not right. You're obviously not running ads because you're not, there's nothing that you need to be running ads towards. But I absolutely think that that's a really interesting way for brands to look at it, the same way that you would segment an email list or whatever.
SPEAKER_02
[SPEAKER_01] Yeah. A hundred percent. Cause think about Ridge as an example, Ridge has the outdoor person. Then they have the everyday carry person. And then they have the tactical individual, maybe a SEAL veteran. If you had three different accounts and those are your three top customer segments. If you have three different accounts, different shows around each one. And you just retarget those with Ridge. Like, yep. That's a different game.
SPEAKER_02
[SPEAKER_01] Yeah. But I thought about it for me. I'm trying to figure out which one I do. That's, I'm playing in an area where I have these different limited series I want to try, but I haven't thought about what is the thing that I could put on a different account and I'm going to scale infinitely. I haven't cracked the code on something for me yet.
SPEAKER_02
Is there any brands that you think are doing a good job with separate accounts like that, just from the targeting, just to target different? Like the way I think about it is ClickUp is doing a really good job. Like their comedy account is a completely different person than their education account. Other than Solomon, but it's not like they're making shows. They just have Solomon streetwear or Solomon fashion, Solomon running, Solomon. Yeah. But that's a good example. It is targeted very specifically to one individual. But from the content perspective, it could be better.
SPEAKER_02
[SPEAKER_01] Right. But I don't think a lot of people know that you can retarget people that have watched the video, but that's actually the way that you get in front of that different audience and then run ads towards them. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. If you connect that Instagram account, you could retarget all those individuals with very specific content and just target that Instagram account. Like that's a cheat code. Yeah. To be able to do that. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. You had a series that you You did a few months ago, the Art and Science of Influencers. How are you even thinking about that for creators?
SPEAKER_01
[SPEAKER_02] Absolutely. I really want to rip it way more, do a ton more. My time and energy has been elsewhere, not in content in the sense of there's other, I'm trying to host a lot of things in person and building out the actual events and planning for things that were more time sensitive than the content have been taking precedent. So I haven't been able to do that series as much. I want to, but that series for me, it ripped for you.
SPEAKER_01
[SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Really good. And I'm excited to do more of it. And I probably have two or three other ones that are similar to that, that are just formats that I want to keep pushing that fit within the audience that I'm going after. The reason why I think that one hit is because I probably spent a month on packaging, literally sitting and being before that. And I don't private any of the videos that I'm doing on my social. So you can go and look and see,
SPEAKER_02
It ripped for you. Yeah. Really good. And I'm excited to do more of it. And I probably have two or three other ones that are similar to that, that are just formats that I want to keep pushing that fit within the audience that I'm going after. The reason why I think that one hit is because I probably spent a month on packaging, literally sitting and thinking about it before that. And I don't private any of the videos that I'm doing on my social.
SPEAKER_02
[SPEAKER_01] So you can go and look and see I was doing these white background ones that were literally just me wanting to ramble, but I don't have a... but I think it's really hard to break through just from the format of somebody talking into an iPhone. So I was thinking, let me put a white background behind what I'm doing. And those videos did not hit, but they didn't hit in an interesting way, meaning they didn't go to new people. [SPEAKER_01] But the people that watched them liked them. [SPEAKER_01] So my audience actually enjoyed them. [SPEAKER_01] So I was thinking, okay, the substance in here is good, but this isn't attractive to new people that don't know me.
SPEAKER_01
[SPEAKER_02] So then I took some time. There's probably a three week gap in between the two. [SPEAKER_02] And I was thinking, what am I actually trying to do with this and how do I package it?
SPEAKER_02
[SPEAKER_01] And then that came up with the art and science concept.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. [SPEAKER_02] I mean, this was huge for you. [SPEAKER_02] Like, I think you had a few that dropped hundreds of thousands of views. Absolute bangers. [SPEAKER_02] But I also loved that you thought about the packaging. [SPEAKER_02] If I pull up every video for you, you start on the right side of the screen, then you have the specific font with a little effect on it. And then, yeah, it's done in a way where when we think about the repetitive elements in a social show, you brought this to your series. Thanks bro. And it's very... let me just say as a creator, I hate that I have to be that detailed on it, but it's the lay of the land now.
SPEAKER_01
A hundred percent. It's the lay of the land. It's literally that. It's just like the data science and statistics that you're talking about. I would love to be able to just click record and have zero formatting. And I think you can still do that in ways. There are videos that I posted that are literally just off the cuff, and I love those the most, but to really have success, you need to put more time and energy into it from what I'm seeing. And I would love for that not to be the case, but unfortunately it just is. Yeah. But for me, I think we talked about this on your blog a long time ago. I actually like it.
SPEAKER_02
[SPEAKER_01] I'm thinking, yeah, I want to make this as good as possible. [SPEAKER_01] The frustrating part was I'd been spending so much time on so many different elements of the content and it's taken a back seat, or it's not performing as well as my green screen content. [SPEAKER_01] And that drives me crazy. [SPEAKER_01] My green screen content will get, I can for sure know it'll get a hundred some thousand views. And the stuff that I'm architecting, like making perfect, is not cracking 30, 40 thousand.
SPEAKER_01
[SPEAKER_02] Well, there's no such thing as perfect. [SPEAKER_02] And there's definitely a tipping point into overproduction where it's like, what is actually needed? [SPEAKER_02] And maybe in some of those videos, the audience is thinking, oh, this X, Y, and Z thing actually wasn't needed. [SPEAKER_02] And the green screen, even though it's visual, it is really simple. [SPEAKER_02] You're not moving. You don't have to understand that much. [SPEAKER_02] Maybe there's something about that. [SPEAKER_02] The one thing that I'll say is interesting is like, did you see how I started doing green screen where I was behind me with a glow?
SPEAKER_01
[SPEAKER_02] So let's say I was doing green screen and a video got 300,000 views and I'd get a thousand likes from it, and it would be the same concept, good content versus bad concept. I made variations of it that were more high production that got a hundred thousand, but they drove more followers than ones that got 300,000, which was interesting. And so I do think there's some correlation there between the production value and the amount of followers that came from it. But it was interesting to see, okay, if I got this to hit 500,000 views, I'm going to get a significant amount more followers than if I got it to crack 500,000 views via green screen.
SPEAKER_01
You know what's interesting is, even while we're talking about how everything is moving into high production, or most things are moving into high production, I still will see examples of people demolishing it in the most raw off the cuff format possible. And I think the reason for that is it still always goes back to who is the video for and what do they care about watching?
SPEAKER_01
But it was super interesting to see, okay, for this, if I got this to hit 500,000 views, I'm going to get a significant amount more followers than if I got it to crack 500,000 views via green screen. You know what's interesting is, even while we're talking about how everything is moving into hype or most things are moving into high production, I still will see examples of people demolishing it in the most raw off the cuff format possible. And I think the reason for that is just, it still always just goes back to who is the video for and what do they care about watching? And so I am excited. I love when I can do those kinds of videos. I'm excited for my audience to crave those videos again, because people go through pendulums. I want more production. I want less production.
SPEAKER_01
[SPEAKER_02] I'm so excited for it to be like, yo, I want to see way more of this because I will just rip that. But right now it's a little bit more this way. And so you have to understand it and see what they're watching and then create that. I was talking to the guys over at the 505 podcast. I was talking about that.
SPEAKER_01
[SPEAKER_02] I was telling them six, eight months ago, I was, high production is making a comeback, both on the creator side and the brand side, but it's production done in a way where we learned everything from what worked natively with iPhone. And we're now bringing it to the production world. Skits are now, Burberry's doing skits, but they're doing skits that are, cost $250,000 to produce.
SPEAKER_01
Right? Interview style. We're bringing interviews now. It's a three person production team versus just shooting on one iPhone. All of the things that work natively, we're now bringing over to social, or sorry, to high production, which is super interesting. The last thing I'll riff on is, did you hear that interview with Ben Affleck where he was talking about how, even because of social, Netflix has changed how they make their movies. [SPEAKER_02] No. Oh dude. It was so interesting.
SPEAKER_01
[SPEAKER_02] He was talking about now when they write a movie, in the past, it could build up. The story can build up and the tension suspense could build as a story continues to unfold. Now they have to start a movie with action within the first five minutes. So if you watch the Rip, which is the movie that was out. [SPEAKER_02] And the reason for that is because people will watch the first five minutes and then click out. To their phones. [SPEAKER_02] They'll go into there.
SPEAKER_01
They'll go on the rest of the movie. Yes. And not pay attention to the movie. And so now the way that they'll write is, dude, did you watch the Rip? It's the one with Ben Affleck, Matt Damon. You should watch it just to pay attention to, it starts off with one of their partners getting killed, within two minutes. And now you're bought in. Cause you're. [SPEAKER_02] There was a twist, almost a cliffhanger within, there's a curiosity gap within the first three minutes. Wow.
SPEAKER_01
[SPEAKER_02] Of the movie. And so they were talking about how it shifted, social has shifted the entire landscape for even how they're producing movies in Hollywood, where you have to get someone's intention in five minutes or you're going to lose them. And it's so interesting to think about that. It's actually an amazing, I think he is with Rogan. I believe it was with Rogan. It's an amazing podcast episode to even think about content creation. Cool. [SPEAKER_02] You should totally dive into it. Really interesting.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, dude. Well, hell yeah, dude. I appreciate you jumping on as usual. I'm crazy. It's been two years since we probably ripped the first one. I think you were like episode. [SPEAKER_02] Maybe even more, dude. Ten, fifteen. Might even be more. Zara was six months or seven months. Okay. [SPEAKER_02] So maybe it was two years. It was roughly. Yeah. It was roughly two years ago, which is insane. But I appreciate you coming on as usual. I'm going to keep, I'm going to watch all these cameras as you will leave the door because, last time we, we spent time together.
SPEAKER_01
[SPEAKER_02] Don't give me that curse. Don't give me that curse. I always love talking to you, bro. I love diving into this stuff. Love what you do. Thank you. Likewise. Stoked to keep building. It's mutual. It's mutual. Are you ever going to move to Austin? [SPEAKER_02] It's not happening. LA. Last time we spent time together. [SPEAKER_02] Don't give me that curse. [SPEAKER_02] Don't give me that curse. [SPEAKER_02] I always love talking to you, bro. [SPEAKER_02] I love, love diving into this stuff. [SPEAKER_02] Love what you do. [SPEAKER_02] Thank you. [SPEAKER_02] Likewise. [SPEAKER_02] Stoked to keep building. [SPEAKER_02] It's mutual. [SPEAKER_02] It's mutual.
SPEAKER_01
[SPEAKER_02] Are you ever going to move to Austin? [SPEAKER_02] It's not happening. [SPEAKER_02] LA. [SPEAKER_02] Okay. [SPEAKER_02] I'll be here for family. [SPEAKER_02] True.
SPEAKER_02
Because your parents are out here, right? Oh yeah. If they want to find you, where can they find you? All my socials are JT Barnett, just JT Barnett everywhere. Hit me up, send me a message. [SPEAKER_01] I make some guest appearances and Cut 30. So if you're in any of those. [SPEAKER_01] That's true.
SPEAKER_01
[SPEAKER_02] Yeah. [SPEAKER_02] You're lucky you have a unique name, bro. [SPEAKER_02] Getting to Alex Garcia is, yeah, but Alex Garcia is a sick name.
SPEAKER_02
What do you mean, bro? You go to Miami, you point, you just go like this and there's another one. That's what happens, dude. [SPEAKER_01] That's good. Appreciate it, dude. [SPEAKER_01] All right, bro. All right. like in that ballpark for a newer brand to then hundreds, like 150 to like 300 in that ballpark. So you finished first show five episodes posted the metrics that you look at to say like, okay, we actually see the thing that there's something here is 10 to 30,000 views on a video on one of those videos. We're looking at saves and shares. And then we're looking at three second view rate retention graph average watch time. And what do you,
SPEAKER_02
what do you view as in those things as this has something for us to double down into and actually do it more?
SPEAKER_01
Like the say,
SPEAKER_02
if the ratio of likes to, to shares is significantly high, but you look at the, like the retention graph and at three seconds, it's below 50%. You just have a hook problem.
SPEAKER_01
Right. If I've found like on mine, anything above 50% on the retention graph at the three second mark will be a great performing video. We'll get hundreds of thousands of views.
SPEAKER_02
And so that's been a big thing of like,
SPEAKER_01
I just need to adjust that if that's high, but then my average watch time is below 12 seconds. Then I'm looking at the structure of the story or the structure of the piece.
SPEAKER_02
If I could get to 12 seconds and then I'm monitoring the average watch time every single hour and the average watch time starts climbing every single hour,
SPEAKER_01
I know I have a winner. And I'm sure you've seen this with your videos.
SPEAKER_02
Like if it starts at 12 seconds and it goes to 13, 14, 50, you're like, Oh yeah, this is going to hit. And so that's the other elements that I'm looking at. And so if it gets stuck at the average watch time being low, then we're like changing angles a lot. Like if it was straight on at the beginning, we're going to have like three cameras and change like how it's structured, things like that. For everybody that just listened to that, you are so far ahead of the rest of the world with doing these shows and the way that you're going about it. And I think very similarly to you of like looking at what I'm saying is that's where the world is going.
SPEAKER_02
Having somebody to be able to,
SPEAKER_01
the only reason you know, the only reason that you're able to say everything you just said is because you're a creator. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02
Does that actually click for you? Because I don't know if you like don't hype yourself up on that enough, but the only reason you are able to actually look at that data and know the three second rate and what's good and what's bad about it and the watch time is because you've posted 500 videos. You know? So like the way that a brand becomes competitive is by having that acknowledgement
SPEAKER_01
that you have on the data side to then go and inform the creative for you.
SPEAKER_02
You're both in your team. You're looking at the data and then you're going and being creative. That eventually will be two different people. It'll be somebody that analyzes that, that then can print a report, come over and be like, this is what we saw. You need to go fix this.
SPEAKER_01
Wholeheartedly agree. Every brand is going to need to know how to do that. But that person that is looking at that has to come from social. It needs to be somebody that understands organic social
SPEAKER_02
that can then be able to go into a creative team and have that combo. We're two years away from most brands having that.
SPEAKER_01
Agree. I think the winners, both from a creator lens and a brand lens,
SPEAKER_02
is going to be the person that's the most analytical. The person that can go, of course, being amazingly creative helps and it's going to be a differentiator. But the fact that somebody could go in and be like, oh no, anytime we get a video to 52% retention on the graph, we have a winner. And then can actually go to the creative team and be like, let's make these adjustments. That's how you're going to win. It's changed too much. The landscape has changed too much. It's not too competitive, but it's very competitive. Yeah. You know, like the tools at our fingertips to be able to make good content are infinite now. And so the change is honestly,
SPEAKER_02
how obsessive can you be with the creative and what makes creative go from good to great? That's actually a really interesting idea of like, what I do is tip of the, or not tip of the iceberg, beginning of the spectrum of most innovative on what brands are doing in terms of content. And not one brand has ever come to me and been like, we need a data scientist around our social shows. I agree with you 100%. And that just is a really interesting individual that will go into a brand. And it's different than most, I'm sure that ESPN, Fox,
SPEAKER_01
MSNBC, like all of these people have all of that happening. Like they have people that are looking at the data of theirs and seeing, oh, when we have this word go across the screen, people click away on channels. That is yet to happen on a social team.
SPEAKER_02
And that absolutely will be a thing because you're,
SPEAKER_01
you're already looking at that and turning that into, into creative. And right now most people are building their social teams all around creative, but actually that piece is a really interesting one to add to the mix of somebody that can go and inform. And it's not a creative strategist. It's like literally like a data scientist, data scientist. Really interesting. And the reason that makes me think that is the best YouTubers are data heads, bro. Like I, there was one time when I was the CMO collective where I was like in this room, uh, one of like the side rooms and Ryan Trahan was in there and he was with his team. And they were just doing a data,
SPEAKER_01
like they were just holding a data meeting. It was when he did the penny series and I'm sitting there like paint, like trying to act like I'm not paying attention over listening to everything. But bro, they were going through data, like a completely different level. This was three, four years ago at a completely different level than I've ever seen.
SPEAKER_02
And I'm like, you bring that over to organic social, like on Instagram, on Tik TOK, you're going to operate, you're going to move different, move absolutely different. Oh, sick. Yeah. That's only, it's only new for, so for Instagram to talk though, because if their analytics have only gotten so much more built out, like in like a year. Yeah. It's gotten significantly better from what it used to be. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
Big time.
SPEAKER_02
Wow, dude. All right. I mean,
SPEAKER_01
I know that I'm the guest on this, but that's some good shit. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, I want to go a little, a few layers deeper in social shows and how you're thinking about them. Are you thinking from a brand perspective, it has to live on a different channel out the gate? How are you thinking about it should live on a different channel? Should we test it? It depends on the audience. If your audience is the exact same as the audience of the show, cool. It goes on the same channel. I think the different, the interesting thing about the different one is, what I've started noticing is like when you do these shows,
SPEAKER_01
if these shows actually hit, it can ladder up into a much bigger thing. For example, experiential is really big for brands now,
SPEAKER_02
getting people in person.
SPEAKER_01
And experiential is big because it's not just a play of getting individuals in
SPEAKER_02
person to tangibly feel the product, but it's actually much more of a thing for people to take photos of your product and the brand and tag them on social, which is why a lot of brands are hosting more events and bringing influencers to them. Like the, the, the first wave is the people at the event actually experiencing it. But the second wave of it is them posting it socially and all of those people, um, seeing it. And so the, um, the interesting thing about these social shows is it's, the way I look at it is like, it can be a pilot for a much bigger campaign for a brand. So if you do a five part social series and you get real traction,
SPEAKER_02
then you can think about it as like, this could be a full on campaign. So if you like name a show, like the mile, and it's about like a dude walking in shoes and then that really hits. And you actually see from the data side,
SPEAKER_01
Oh, people are really resonating with this comment section is talking about,
SPEAKER_02
then you can be like,
SPEAKER_01
why don't we host an event called the event, the mile, have our show be featured at it or filmed at it, or the cast of the show be there. And it just ladder up into a bigger campaign.
SPEAKER_02
So that's why I think it's smart to do a separate account rather than just doing it all in one. I'm there with you.
SPEAKER_01
I,
SPEAKER_02
I do think like you test on the main account if you can,
SPEAKER_01
and like you have an engaged audience, like see what has the potential to scale and then scale it into the different account. Like Matt Choi, I feel like his mile challenge should be a separate account. Hmm. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02
As an example.
SPEAKER_01
Like I think there's a lot of people that love Matt Choi's mile challenge and would love to just follow that account.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. cause it also gives you the ability to scale without consequences. Yo, here's another thing. The algorithm is only going to show a certain amount of your content to your audience, even if you like every video. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
So think about this. If you post 10 times a day and your audience is obsessed with your content, they watch every single thing that you post. Yeah. The algorithm is the, the platform of meta and tick tock is trying to think about how do we keep people on this platform for the longest period of time. Yeah. They're, uh, the way that it works is it's, even if your content is good, it's only going to show a certain number of your best performing things to that person. So say somebody like Matt posts four times in a day. And one of them is mile challenge. And one of them is his own video. And one of them is another static post. Yeah. Even if his mile challenge is unbelievable,
SPEAKER_01
it might have shown him his static post three hours earlier. And now it's not going to show the mile challenge, even if it hits. But if he does that on a separate account, the algorithm doesn't know that Matt Choi owns this separate account. So even if he's going to the same audience, it could be mile challenge, static post from his main account, and then separate account be shown or sorry, static post, whatever LC posts on a main account. And then mile challenge could be three videos later. That audience is seeing Matt now three times in their feed, but it's from different ones of his accounts. So like brands, creators, whatever,
SPEAKER_01
if you launch multiple accounts all going after the same demo, you could literally be one post, one post, one post, one post, one post on their feed. You can't do that from just your one account. The other thing I want to dive into two elements there, but like, I think we're,
SPEAKER_02
we're a few, a few years away from this as well. But like when a brand is going to operate like a network and have multiple shows on multiple accounts, those multiple accounts and, or sorry, those multiple shows are going to be sent around a specific customer base.
SPEAKER_00
So then when you go into meta and you have like this Instagram account,
SPEAKER_01
that's all focused on maybe like the outdoors individual from your brand,
SPEAKER_02
you now get to target that individual with specific brands or sorry, specific ads. Like you can get deep, very detailed targeting on your ads, knowing that like this customer segment is only like cares about this individual. And if you're getting 20,
SPEAKER_01
25, 30 million views a month from that account, think about the top of funnel retargeting on the backend there. Have you thought about doing that on a personal level? Yes. Multiple different channels targeting different people. Yes. You're not right. You're, you're obviously not running ads because you're not, there's nothing that you need to be running ads towards. But I, I, I like absolutely think that that's a really interesting way for brands to look at it of like the same way that you would segment, segment. An email list or whatever. Yeah. A hundred percent. Cause like think about like Ridge as an example, Ridge has like the outdoor person.
SPEAKER_01
Then they have like an everyday carry person. And then they have right. Like maybe the, they like tactical individual, maybe like a seal veteran. If you had three different accounts and like, those are your three top customer segments. If you have three different accounts, different shows around each one. And you just retarget those with Ridge. Like, yep. That's a different game. Yeah. But I thought about it for me. I, I'm again, like I'm trying to figure out like which one I do. Like that's, that's, I'm playing in an area where like, I have these different like limited series I want to try, but I haven't thought about like,
SPEAKER_01
what is the thing that I could put on a different account and I'm going to scale infinitely. I haven't,
SPEAKER_02
I haven't cracked the code on something for me yet. Is there any brands that you think are doing a good job with separate accounts like that just from the targeting, just to target different, like the way I think about it is click up is doing a really good job. Like their comedy account is a completely different person than their education account. Other than like Solomon, but it's not like they, like they're not making shows. They just have like Solomon street wear or Solomon fashion, Solomon running Solomon. Yeah. But that's a good example. It is like, it's targeted very specifically to one individual. but from like the content perspective, it could be better. Right.
SPEAKER_01
But I don't think a lot of people know that, that, that you can retarget people that have watched the video, but that's actually the way that you get in front of that different audience and then run ads towards them. Yeah. If you connect that Instagram account, you could retarget those, all those individuals with very specific content and just target that Instagram account. Like that's, that's like cheat code. Yeah. To be able to do that. Yeah. You had a series that you,
SPEAKER_02
you did a few months ago, the art and science of influencers. How are you even thinking about that for, for creators? Absolutely. I really want to rip it way more, do a ton more. My time and energy has been elsewhere, not in content in the sense of there's other, I'm trying to host a lot of things in person and building out the actual events and planning for things that were more time sensitive than the content have been taking a precedent. So I haven't been able to do that series as much. I want to, but that, that series for me, it ripped for you. Yeah. Really good. And I'm excited to do more of it. And,
SPEAKER_02
and I probably have two or three other ones that are similar to that, that are just like formats that I want to keep pushing that fit within the audience that I'm going after. the reason why I think that that one hit is because I probably spent a month on packaging, like literally sitting and being before that. And I, I don't private any of the videos that I'm doing on my social.
SPEAKER_01
So you can go and look and see, I was doing these white background ones that were literally just like, I want to ramble, but I don't have a, but I think it's really hard to break through just from the format looking of somebody talking into iPhone.
SPEAKER_02
So I was like, let me put this like white background behind what I'm doing. And those videos did not hit, but they were like an interesting way that they didn't hit, meaning they didn't go to new people,
SPEAKER_01
but the people that watched them liked them. So my audience actually enjoyed them. So I was like,
SPEAKER_02
okay, the substance in here is good, but this isn't attractive to new people that don't know me. So then I took some time. There's probably like a three week gap in between the two. And I was like,
SPEAKER_01
what am I actually trying to do with this and like packaging it? And then that came up with, that's how I got to art and science. Yeah. Which I think was,
SPEAKER_02
I mean, this was huge for you. Like, I think you had a few that dropped hundreds of thousands. Of, of views are absolute bangers, but like,
SPEAKER_01
I also loved,
SPEAKER_02
you thought about the packaging, right? Like if I pull it up every video for you, you start on, if you're looking at it on the right side of, of the screen, then you have the,
SPEAKER_01
like the specific font with like the, the, the little effect on it. And then, yeah, like it's, it's done in a way where like, when we think about the repetitive elements in a social show, you brought this to your series. Thanks bro. And it's, it's very, let me just say as a creator, I hate that. I have to be that detailed on, but it's dude, it's the lay of the land now. A hundred percent. It's the lay of the land. It's literally, it literally is that it's like, just like the data, the data science statistics that you're talking about. Um, I would love to be able to just click record and have zero formatting.
SPEAKER_01
And I think you can still do that in ways like there is videos that I posted. It literally is just off the cuff. And I love those the most, but to like really have success, you need to put more time and energy into it from what I'm seeing. Um, and I would love for that not to be the case, but unfortunately it just is. Yeah. But for me, like, I think we talked about this on your blog, like a long time ago. I kind of like it. Cause I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I want to make this shit as good as possible. The frustrating part was I'd been spending so much time on so many different elements of the content and it's taken a back seat or it's, sorry,
SPEAKER_01
it's not performing as well as my green screen content. And that drives me crazy. My green screen content will get like,
SPEAKER_02
I can for sure know it'll get a hundred some thousand views. And like the, the stuff that I'm like architect, like making perfect is like not cracking 30, 40. Well, there's no such thing as perfect. And there's definitely a tipping point into overproduction where it's like what actually is needed. And maybe in some of those videos, like the audience is like, Oh, this X, Y, and Z thing actually wasn't needed. And the green screen, even though it's visual, it is really simple. You know, you're not moving. You don't have to understand that much. Like, you know, maybe there's something about that. The one thing that I'll say is interesting is like,
SPEAKER_02
did you see how I started doing green screen where I was like behind me with like a glow? So let's say I was doing green screen and a video got 300,000 views and I'll get like a thousand likes from it. And it would be like the same concept. Like,
SPEAKER_01
let's say good content versus bad concept. I made variations of it that were more high production that got a hundred thousand, but they drove more followers than ones that got 300,000, which was interesting. And so I do think there's some correlation there between like the production value and like the amount of followers that came from it. But it was super interesting to see like, okay, like for this, if I got this to hit 500,000 views, like I'm going to get a significant amount more followers than if I got it to crack 500,000 views via green screen. You know what's interesting is like,
SPEAKER_01
even while we're talking about how everything is moving into hype or most things are moving into high production, I still will see examples of people demolishing it in the most raw off the cuff format possible. And I think the reason for that is just, it still always just goes back to who is the video for and what do they care about watching? And so I am excited. Like, I love when I can do those kinds of videos. I'm excited for my audience to crave those videos again, because people go through pendulums. I want more production. I want less production.
SPEAKER_02
I'm so excited for it to be like, yo, I want to see way more of this shit because I will just rip that. But right now it's a little bit more this way. And so you have to understand it and see what they're watching and then create that. I was talking to the guys over at the 505 podcast.
SPEAKER_01
I was talking about that.
SPEAKER_02
I was like, and I was telling them six, eight months ago, I'm like, high production is making a comeback, you know, like both on the creator side and the brand side, but it's production done in a way where we learned everything from what worked natively with iPhone. And we're now bringing it to like the production world. Skits are now like Burberry's doing skits, but they're doing skits that are, you know, cost $250,000 to produce,
SPEAKER_01
right? Like interview style. Like we're bringing interviews to now. It's a three person production team versus just shooting on one iPhone. Like all of the things that work natively, we're now bringing over to, to social or sorry, to high production, which is super interesting. The last thing I'll, I'll just riff on is like, did you hear that interview with Ben Affleck where he was talking about how like, even because of social, like Netflix has changed how they make their movies. No. Oh dude. It was so interesting. It was like,
SPEAKER_02
he was talking about now when they write a movie, like in the past, right? It could build up. Like the story can build up and like, you can have suspended, like the, the tension suspense could build as a story continues to unfold. Now they have to start a movie with action within the first five minutes. So like, if you watch the rip, which is like the movie that was out. Wait, and the reason for that is because people will watch the first five minutes and then click out. Oh,
SPEAKER_01
to their phones. Oh, go into there. They'll go on the rest of the movie. Yes. And not pay attention to the movie. And so now the way that they'll write is like, dude, like, did you watch the rip? It's the one with Ben Affleck, Matt Damon. You should watch it just to pay attention to, it starts off with like one of their partners getting killed, like within two minutes. And now you're bought in. Cause you're,
SPEAKER_02
there was like a twist, you know, almost like a cliffhanger within, there's a curiosity gap within the first three minutes. Wow. Of the movie. And so they were talking about how like it shifted, like social has shifted the entire landscape for even how they're producing movies in Hollywood, where like you have to get, get, get someone's intention in five minutes or you're going to lose them. And it's so interesting to think about that. It's actually an amazing, I think he is with Rogan. I, I believe it was with Rogan. It's an amazing podcast episode to even think about content creation. Cool. You should totally dive into it. Really interesting. Yeah, dude. Well,
SPEAKER_02
hell yeah, dude. I appreciate you jumping on as usual. I'm crazy. It's been two years since we probably ripped the first one. I think you were like episode like.
SPEAKER_01
Maybe even more,
SPEAKER_02
dude. 10, 15. Might even be more. Zara was six months or like seven months. Okay. So maybe it was two years. It was like roughly. She's yeah. Yeah. It was like roughly two years ago, which is, which is insane. Um, but I appreciate you coming on as,
SPEAKER_01
as usual. I'm going to keep, I'm going to watch all these cameras as you will leave the door because, uh, last time we, uh,
SPEAKER_02
we spent time together. Don't give me that curse. Don't give me that curse. I always love talking to you, bro. I love, love diving into this stuff. Love what you do. Thank you, Likewise. Stoked to keep building. It's mutual. It's mutual. Are you ever going to move to Austin? It's not happening. LA. Okay. I'll be here for family. True. Cause your parents are out here, right? Oh yeah. If they want to find you, where can they find you? All my socials are JT Barnett, just JT Barnett everywhere. Hit me up, send me a message. Um,
SPEAKER_01
I make some guest appearances and cut 30.
SPEAKER_02
So if you're in any of those.
SPEAKER_01
That's true.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah. You're lucky you have a unique name, bro. Getting to Alex Garcia is like, yeah, but Alex Garcia is a sick name. What do you mean, bro? You go to Miami,
SPEAKER_01
you point, you just go like this and there's another one.
SPEAKER_02
That's what happens, dude.
SPEAKER_01
That's good.
SPEAKER_02
Appreciate it,
SPEAKER_01
dude. All right,
SPEAKER_02
bro. All right,