I Bought A Drink Nobody Wanted (And Sold It For $2 Billion)

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Every deal on Shark Tank, that's a beverage. I know they're looking at me. Nobody wins the lottery seven times.

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You've got sharks spitting out the product, you've got a terrible brand name, and you pick up 25% of that company. Sold for a billion and a half.

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Is this just art or is there some science behind it? One of the biggest lines of Robert Woodruff was, he wanted Coke to be within arm's reach of desire. Brand is creating that design. One in 10 Americans influence the other nine. The goal is to spot that one. Can you teach us more about how it's done? It's actually three things. One is spotting stuff early. One is building the brands. And the other is actually... [SPEAKER_02] You are, you're the brand father.

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You have been crushing it in the beverage space. I was reading the research on you the last couple days. I knew about Poppy, I knew about Vitamin Water, but I didn't know the extent of it. Can you brag for a second? Give me, shout out some of the brands that you've been involved with. [SPEAKER_00] I actually have started none.

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I only co-founded one, which was Poppy, and I'll tell you that story. But the rest, I just bought them early or I bond with founders. I think it was Vitamin Water, Smart Water, they were tiny, Vitacoco. Even things I lost money on were well-known, like Pop Chips, Vital Proteins, One Bar, Bulletproof, lost money, but still well-known. What else? We have Farmer's Dog, Once Upon a Farm, and then probably Poppy's, my most famous one. That's an insane, insane roster. It was funny, actually, one of our founders who you know, a guy called Gulrez, who's the co-founder of Gymkhana Fine Foods, was at our LP conference,

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and we're so focused on the brands and the teams and growing stuff. And sometimes you bury yourself in the weeds and you don't sometimes ladder up, and he's that growth. When you look at the sheet of brands on Kavu, which is the fund that I have masthead, it's insane, this ecosystem you've created. And I think you need to do a better job of almost leveraging that ecosystem. And it clicked because he's a founder, right? He's growing an incredible brand. And part of it is I focus on individuals, and sometimes we've got to bring the whole gang in [SPEAKER_01] to realize the strength of what we have. [SPEAKER_01] It's amazing because when a lot of people

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[SPEAKER_01] say the word brand, it's related to taste,

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and both of those can be pretty nebulous. But you are like Paul McCartney or John Lennon, where you've made enough hits where you're like, okay, is this just art or is there some science behind it? [SPEAKER_02] Nobody wins the lottery seven times. [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I mean, that's quite high accolades [SPEAKER_00] to be in any conversation that uses the Beatles name.

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[SPEAKER_00] But there's always luck, guys.

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It's not like this, you can't. The dice has got to roll your way a little bit. But if you have a game plan, which I've honed over time, the odds flow in your favor. And so I've created some mantras and some principles that I actually created after the fact. Because you don't go in and say, all right, guys, I've got five mantras. You almost have a few hits. You're like, how did this happen? And then I rewind and go, okay, this is how it happened. [SPEAKER_02] Give us one. [SPEAKER_02] What's one of the first ones you've realized? [SPEAKER_02] Like, okay, all right, this is one that matters.

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We got to put that concrete. [SPEAKER_00] A couple of big ones. [SPEAKER_00] One is influence the influencer. [SPEAKER_00] So you've got a pot of money, right?

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A hundred grand, a million, a hundred million. Whatever you want to spend on your marketing budget. Who do I get to? [SPEAKER_00] Right? I can't get everyone. It's not Bosman. Unless you're Amazon has the budget to get to everyone. But most people, when they start a company, don't. So from my perspective, it's one in 10 Americans. And I say America because 90, 100% of my career actually is America in terms of success. So this is the greatest country in the world to be an entrepreneur. I say that everywhere I go. I truly believe it. So in America, one in 10 Americans influence the other nine. The goal is to spot that one. And that has evolved over time.

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So when I first started doing this, honestly, and I'm aging myself here, but some of the biggest influences, and I'm talking about back in the day with Sprite even, and even Vitamin Water, was radio DJs. Now radio is dead and you guys are the heroes online, right? But before you podcast kings came along, it was radio DJs. And so at one time in Vegas, I picked out an award show annually and I would fly in the top 25 cities and the top two DJs from every city. So you have 50 people coming in. And every single artist that came to that award show would want to go to this place because you could hit 20 cities in two hours. It was almost like the cities came to you

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versus you traveling. And back then you're releasing an album, a new product, whatever it is, it was radio DJs.

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And so at one time in Vegas, I picked out an award show annually and I would fly in the top 25 cities and the top two DJs from every city. So you have 50 people coming in. And every single artist that came to that award show would want to go to this place because you could hit 20 cities in two hours. It was almost like the cities came to you versus you traveling. And back then you're releasing an album, a new product, whatever it is, you're right there. And I did it back in the day on a brand called Sprite. It's a corporate brand. We did something cool. And then I did that with Vitamin Water where I took on all the DJs in the local markets and I hired people on my team that felt that vibe because in order to bond with a DJ, if you're a dork, it's not going to work. So I hired people who lived the brand. They didn't market the brand. They lived Vitamin Water. That was their vibe. And so that's now evolved today to the Alex Earls of the world or if it's in music, it's the 50 Cent who's having an amazing resurgence. But now it's digital social media influencers that were the early DJs and the keys to spot that one in 10. So that's been a big philosophy in mind with every company we go into is who is that one in 10.

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[SPEAKER_02] Hey, I want to tell you about something pretty cool. We have a database of all of the unsexy business ideas that have been discussed on this podcast. So hundreds of episodes, the team at HubSpot went through. They pulled out all the unsexy ideas. So not the super high-tech ones, but the simple, relatable, interesting, profitable ideas that we have brainstormed and they're all available for download for free. Just click the link in the description below. Thank you to our friends at HubSpot for sponsoring this podcast and putting together this free resource for you guys. Back to the show.

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Can you define what a brand even is? I think a brand is something that allows a consumer to have an emotional connection with a product. So this is just a can, a product of certain. I drink it. I like the product. Liquid's great. But I've got to create an emotional bond with people so they request a Poppy. They reach for a Poppy. And I worked for Coke back in the day and one of the biggest lines that Robert Woodruff was like one of the godfathers of making Coke what it is today. He said he wanted Coke to be within arm's reach of desire. Brand is creating that design. Right. [SPEAKER_02] And then the distribution is putting it in arm's reach.

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Arm's reach. You nailed it. Exactly.

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[SPEAKER_02] Sam texted me a clip this morning of when Poppy walked into Shark Tank. And at the time, they're not called Poppy. They're called Mother or Mothers or something like that. They're not a soda that tastes good. It's like prebiotic. They're apple cider vinegar. So it's amazing because it's like, you know when there's these documentaries and it's like the dude who followed Kanye around 10 years before he became famous at all. And you're like, I can't believe we're so lucky that this guy happened to just follow this young artist in Chicago who happened to become Kanye West. And so there's this thing where it's like, you see them come into the Shark Tank. I think they have something like $250,000 in revenue. Some 200 to 400K of annual revenue at the time.

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[SPEAKER_02] Yeah. [SPEAKER_02] Different brand, different drink, no revenue. All the other sharks go out. So you're in a bidding war with no one. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, nobody, nobody. They go, all right, sharks, taste this healthy drink. And they make people take a shot of apple cider vinegar. And they're like, this is horrible. And they're like, yeah, it is horrible, but it's great for you. Now, what if it could be great for you and also taste good? That's our product, which is, it was a really good pitch. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, the title of the video is sharks disgusted by the Poppy. They were. I think Kevin may have spit it out. I can't remember.

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[SPEAKER_02] So you got sharks spitting out the product. You've got a terrible brand name. His mother's in cursive and it looks like an old sparkling wine or something like that. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. [SPEAKER_02] A totally different formulation. And you pick up 25% of that company. I think Poppy sold [SPEAKER_02] By the poppy, they were. I think Kevin may have spit it out. I can't remember a bit.

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[SPEAKER_02] So you got sharks spitting out the product. You've got a terrible brand name. His mother's in cursive and it looks like an old sparkling wine or something like that. Yeah. A totally different formulation. And you pick up 25% of that company. I think poppy sold for a billion and a half or something like that. [SPEAKER_02] No, no, come on. North of two, man. [SPEAKER_02] Oh, north of two. Okay. Unbelievable exit. What happens? And it's amazing that the whole thing was captured. What happens between the time you see it, what are you thinking then? And then what were the things that actually transformed that business? Because I think that's a perfect case study.

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Yeah. Let's go to phase one. So these guys come out. Every deal on Shark Tank, that's a beverage or food, but really beverage. I can do the range, but beverage is my real house. I don't know, DNA gifted with that. So beverage comes out. They're like, I know they're looking at me. Cuban's a bigger name than me. Kevin's a bigger name than me. Lori's the queen of digital and QVC, but beverage, they look at me. And then these guys come out. I'm like, here we go again. Because I'm not three seasons in. I'm like, someone's going to hit me up with some nonsense beverage. And we had some real dumb ones along the way. But this really good looking couple comes out, husband and wife, straight out of central caustic. They look like Sam, this chisel, good looking white boy.

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[SPEAKER_01] I'm friends with Steven and we became friends because I DM'd him and I just said, we look alike. What are we friends? I swear to God.

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He does look a lot like Steven. I'm not kidding. So these two good looking guys come out, a guy and a lady. She's like, eight months pregnant. She could deliver any second. So immediately I'm like, they've got hustle. Then they pitch the product and I'm like, horrible packaging. I don't like the brand name. I like the word mother, but everyone has a mother. You can't trademark. It's not really a trademarkable thing. But let's try it. So that's the train's running on that track. Okay. In the separate track in my head, I'm a soda kid. I've been looking for soda. I grew up in Zambia in Africa, right? So in Zambia, when he had three beverages, Coke, Sprite and Fanta, that's it. But I came off sodas because sodas have a shit ton of sugar. They're not good for you. They're not bad. But in the back of my head, I've always been looking for soda I can feel good about. But I didn't go into the show thinking that. But in the back of my head, that's the running track. I try this. Actually, it was this one. Ironically, it was the orange one. And so for me, that is still this is my top two. Orange is my favorite and cream soda is my second. So funny, the two flavors I drank when I was a kid. It's amazing what 40 years, it's throwing back to the nine, 10-year-old romance. It's crazy. Anyway, so I try the orange one and I'm like, oh my God, this is Fanta meets Orangina. If you guys remember, and I'm like, this liquid is in my head, takes me back. This is my modern soda. But I don't get excited because I know the minute I get excited, these guys get excited. And so I think—

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[SPEAKER_02] You were the last one to talk, at least in the edit. I don't know if that's actually how it was. Oh my God, this is Fanta meets Orangina. If you guys remember, this liquid is in my head, takes me back. This is my modern soda. But I don't get excited because I know it's the minute I get excited, these guys get excited. And so I think— [SPEAKER_02] You were the last one to talk, at least in the edit. I don't know if that's actually how it was, but I thought that was incredible patience to let the other sharks play out before you chimed in because obviously you would influence them.

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Exactly right. I did not. I specifically remained mute because the minute I seemed vaguely excited, and by the way, even then, Cuban and Bethany both turned to me and said, oh, should we split this? And I'm like, in a nice way, no, because if this works, which you did, why would I want to split it? And if it doesn't work, I'm fine to lose it, but in the end, I'm betting on myself, right?

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Right. I liked them. I like Stephen Allison, but that's a very short like. We go for dinner the next day, I'm like, oh God, they're horrible. The first thing I did when we became partners, I shut it down. I shut down Mother. And it was a tough conversation. And then Stephen, Allison, me, and a lady on my team called Stevie, we co-founded Poppy. There was no Poppy. And in my mind, I wasn't focused on an apple cider vinegar beverage. I was focused on making this modern soda for today's youth. And so I'm like, okay, if I love soda and everyone else loves soda, this is modern soda. And so we created the whole modern soda category, but I wasn't thinking apple cider vinegar. And so we shut Mother down. Stevie, myself, Allison, Stephen, and Stevie took charge of the packaging design. We then all debated which is the best one to go with. We voted on it, and that's where Poppy came into play.

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[SPEAKER_02] What about the name? We had David Placic come on who named Blackberry and Swiffer, and he gave us a master class on naming product. Poppy is an incredible name for a soda pop brand to find that super easy to say, recognizable, fun, it almost feels bubbly in the name. So I'm strategically creative. Stevie and my team is what I call tactically creative. [SPEAKER_02] That sounds like something I would say when I don't want to do work. That's exactly that. She works much harder.

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So it's a triangle offense. Allison and Stephen have created the product. It's a great product, but their insight was apple cider vinegar, healthy beverage. My insight is I want soda. So what's America for sodas pop, right? So that's what everyone. In England, it translates less or the pop is exploding in the UK now, but Stevie's goal was how does she take what they created, what my strategic game plan was, and create a name that rolls off the tongue. And we had a bunch of them. At one point, I even liked Mom and Pop because I'm like, it was a throwback to mom and pop stores and all that. And people told me it was stupid and they were right. But then when they came out with Poppy and Stevie presented, I'm like, okay.

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[SPEAKER_01] Right. Can we, all right, let's go back because you only invested, I think, $250,000 or $400,000 into Poppy. And so it was really small business. You shut it down at half a million in revenue and you rebranded it and restarted it as Poppy. Do you remember what was the revenue growth up until you exited for $2 billion?

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[SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So at this point, I give Alice and Stephen full credit because Mother was their baby. And to go to a founder and say, good news, [SPEAKER_01] into Poppy. And so it was really small business. You shut it down at half a million in revenue and you rebranded it and restarted it as Poppy. Do you remember what was the revenue growth up until you exited for $2 billion?

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[SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So at this point, I give Alice and Stephen full credit because Mother was their baby. And to go to a founder and say, good news, bad news, good news, I'm your partner. Bad news, we're shutting down Mother. And we're not co-founding Poppy together. That takes a lot of faith on their part. And we launched in March of 2020, right, with H-Sap. I said, guys, I don't want plastic because plastic's bad. We can't do glass because it's inconvenient. We're going to go back to cans. OG Telegraph soda. That's what I drank. I'm sitting here drinking out of a can. We launched March of 2020. What happens in April? COVID.

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[SPEAKER_00] The world shuts down. Yeah. So we had started to be a more digital company because that's just the nature of where life was. But we turbocharged that because then suddenly all retail was dead and everything became digital and so on and so forth. So in our first year, we did a couple million bucks only because the world shut down, which is still incredible for that. But then we went from a couple of million to over half a billion in the next four years. So from 2021 to 2025, we exploded. And did you put more money in in the beginning to push marketing or did you guys raise? What did you guys do?

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[SPEAKER_00] Yeah, we kept raising. I mean, beverage is expensive, by the way. I put more money in. My fund, Karvu, came in. So my business partner, Brett, was like, look, I believe in you. I don't get beverages early. If you get it, Karvu's going to back it. So we, everyone went in, right? And so we kept backing it. We raised a chunk of money, but everyone got a great return because of the exit number. It's not only what you get it at, it's what you get out at. How much did you raise in sum? I mean, all in?

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[SPEAKER_01] 40 maybe? 40 maybe? Wow. Well, that would be, that's amazing to go from. Yeah, that's not that much. I didn't realize you guys were that new. So roughly 2021 to 2025, 2026, zero to $2 billion exit. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. What was the most satisfying win you had? Was it Poppy or was it something earlier? Was there something where maybe even it wasn't as big financially, but just you were proud of the way you made it work?

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[SPEAKER_00] No, Poppy hands down. Poppy. Because everything else, I went there and someone else had a product that I built. Here, Steve and Allison had created Mother and it was brilliant. Without the liquid that they had created, we wouldn't be anywhere, right? But I got in early enough to basically co-found Poppy with me and Stevie, added to Allison and Steven, and it was amazing. And so I think that was satisfying because I had the vision from the beginning. I had a great team with Steve and Allison, Stevie, and then we brought in a CEO because at some point I'm not an operator. Allison and Steven, super smart, but also realized they weren't operators. And so once we got to like 30, 40 million, we brought a guy called Chris Haaland and that guy's a legend. And I think one of the other lessons you have to learn as an entrepreneur is having a founder and creator mind doesn't always align with having an operator mind. Sometimes it can. More often, it probably doesn't. The one guy I think was really good at it was a guy called Kurt from Vital Proteins. I don't know if you know him. Kurt founded Vital Proteins. We partnered with him as well. And that guy was actually a rocket scientist, legit.

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[SPEAKER_00] and creator mind [SPEAKER_00] doesn't always align [SPEAKER_00] with having an operator mind. [SPEAKER_00] Sometimes it can. [SPEAKER_00] More often, [SPEAKER_00] it probably doesn't. [SPEAKER_00] More often, it doesn't. [SPEAKER_00] The one guy I think [SPEAKER_00] was really good at it

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was a guy called Kurt from Vital Proteins. I don't know if you know him. Kurt founded Vital Proteins. We partnered with him as well. And that guy was, he was actually a rocket scientist, legit. So he was a founder and a brilliant operator. So that's a unique rarity. But in this case, we brought in Chris Hall and Chris ran Sparkling Ice. So I had to spend a lot of time coaching and begging and then convincing and a combination of all of the above to get him over. But he was a game changer because you need to operate.

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[SPEAKER_00] And he helped take it [SPEAKER_01] from 50 to 500. [SPEAKER_01] Man, it's still amazing [SPEAKER_01] how good you are at this. [SPEAKER_01] And I think we should [SPEAKER_01] talk about that [SPEAKER_01] because there's a handful [SPEAKER_01] of skill sets that are, [SPEAKER_01] I call them ATM skills [SPEAKER_01] where you just become [SPEAKER_01] a moneymaker. [SPEAKER_01] If you can [SPEAKER_01] create an audience, [SPEAKER_01] you're probably a moneymaker. [SPEAKER_01] If you can sell, [SPEAKER_01] you're probably a moneymaker. [SPEAKER_01] If you can do good branding, [SPEAKER_01] you're probably a moneymaker. [SPEAKER_01] And you've done it

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[SPEAKER_01] many times in a row. [SPEAKER_01] Where did you learn [SPEAKER_01] how to do this?

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Because I know you worked

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[SPEAKER_01] for Mars. [SPEAKER_01] You worked for Coke. [SPEAKER_01] Is that where you learned [SPEAKER_01] how to do this? [SPEAKER_01] And can you teach us more [SPEAKER_01] about how it's done? [SPEAKER_01] Actually, [SPEAKER_01] it's interesting [SPEAKER_00] you bring up that point. [SPEAKER_00] It's actually three things. [SPEAKER_00] One is spotting stuff early. [SPEAKER_00] One is building the brands [SPEAKER_00] and the other is actually [SPEAKER_00] how to sell them. [SPEAKER_00] And people forget the last part [SPEAKER_00] because there's a big graveyard [SPEAKER_00] of brands that have got built, [SPEAKER_00] got to scale,

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[SPEAKER_00] but never fully exited. [SPEAKER_00] And there's a bigger graveyard [SPEAKER_00] of those who just didn't go anywhere. [SPEAKER_00] And I think part of it, [SPEAKER_00] so take my learnings. [SPEAKER_00] My learnings on Mars [SPEAKER_00] were less so, [SPEAKER_00] because I was in [SPEAKER_00] manufacturing operations. [SPEAKER_00] So my learning there [SPEAKER_00] was almost [SPEAKER_00] the importance of supply chain, [SPEAKER_00] operations, gross margin, [SPEAKER_00] the boring stuff. [SPEAKER_00] But people forget [SPEAKER_00] that if you don't have

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[SPEAKER_00] good gross margins, [SPEAKER_00] you cannot make money. [SPEAKER_00] And if you can't make money, [SPEAKER_00] you go bankrupt. [SPEAKER_00] And by the way, [SPEAKER_00] I've still made that mistake.

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I had an incredible product

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[SPEAKER_00] called Chef's Cut. [SPEAKER_00] It was a jerky. [SPEAKER_00] Before Chomps, [SPEAKER_00] my buddy invested in Chomps [SPEAKER_00] and he and I would joke [SPEAKER_00] because we were neck and neck [SPEAKER_00] and Chef's came out first. [SPEAKER_00] And I just didn't have [SPEAKER_00] great gross margins. [SPEAKER_00] And I should have focused [SPEAKER_00] more on that. [SPEAKER_00] Chef's got shut down [SPEAKER_00] or got sold for nothing. [SPEAKER_00] And Chomps became a juggernaut. [SPEAKER_00] And so he keeps laughing at me. [SPEAKER_00] But I think from that perspective, [SPEAKER_00] I learned from Mars a little bit.

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[SPEAKER_00] And you still make mistakes. [SPEAKER_00] With Coke, [SPEAKER_00] I learned how to do [SPEAKER_00] disruptive marketing and branding. [SPEAKER_00] Because I was lucky. [SPEAKER_00] I was in Sprite [SPEAKER_00] back in the heyday [SPEAKER_00] when we [SPEAKER_00] signed Missy Elliott [SPEAKER_00] and Kobe Bryant. [SPEAKER_00] And I did a bunch [SPEAKER_00] of hip hop stuff. [SPEAKER_00] And it was really cool. [SPEAKER_00] And then I was in Powerade [SPEAKER_00] where Coke didn't care about it.

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So they said, do whatever you want. So I learned creative disruption early, even though I was in a corporate environment. And then they fired me because I was a little too disruptive. And so I went to Vitamortum. And that's where I really start to learn how to, and that's my second mantra, how to make brands part of pop culture. There's a lot of guys who report the news. Very few people make the news. And so for me, with Vitamortum Smilewater, I started by making the news. And those brands became part of pop culture. [SPEAKER_02] That sounds cool. [SPEAKER_02] But what does that mean? [SPEAKER_02] Make the news? [SPEAKER_02] I don't know.

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[SPEAKER_02] I'm too dumb to understand that. So make the news. So the first influencer, mega influencer, ownership deal I did, because remember, everything before 50 was very much a sponsorship deal. You sign a celebrity, they get in, that's the deal. The equity ownership, arguably Michael did it in a different way with Nike, but that came up later. [SPEAKER_02] I don't know. [SPEAKER_02] I'm too dumb to understand that. So make the news.

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So the first influencer, mega influencer, ownership deal I did, because remember, everything before 50 was very much a sponsorship deal, right? You sign a celebrity, they get in, that's the deal, right? The equity ownership, arguably Michael did it in a different way with Nike, but that has come up later and it wasn't really well-known then. But with 50, I didn't have the money to pay 50. He was huge at the time, right? And so I met with 50 and his manager, Chris Lighty, and actually there's two guys I was looking at for Vitaminwater. Because Vitaminwater was a great brand, but it was a little bit Upper East Side, New York preppy brand. It wasn't nationwide cool. It wasn't getting shot in the face nine times. It wasn't getting shot in the face cool. And rap about it, yeah. Exactly. Although it was only eight times because one bullet went through twice. But anyway, of course, sorry. So I wanted hip-hop and the two biggest names in the world at the time were Curtis Jackson and The Hover. It was Jay-Z, right? So those are the two guys who were the biggest names. And so I called my buddy Seth Rodsky and I said, Seth, you're more connected in this world than I am. Who can I get to? Seth could have got to both but he had a much better relationship with Chris Lighty, 50's manager. So he put me on text with 50's manager. A lot of this also for artists, it's their managers getting it. So Chris got it straight away. He got the product. He got 50. He said, we've not done a deal. We're about to do a deal with Reebok but I'll kill that deal. I'll do this with you. That's how I got connected. And 50, as we see today, is clearly an entrepreneur. Also don't mess with him because he will come after you with a vengeance. So I think that he got it and I said, I don't have money but I can give you skin in the game. And he immediately said, okay, I'm in. And I thought I was going to make him X. He made 10X because I did the math wrong. He got what, 1, 2%? Something like that in the company? I can't tell you exactly what he got because we have a deal. I don't give the exact number and he doesn't kick the shit out of me. But he made a lot because honestly, I gave him enough equity for him to make good money if we sold the company for 400 to 500 million. That was our goal of Vitaminwater. Like I remember Mike Rappoli, who was the co-founder of Vitaminwater, was like, bro, put it up as board. If we get to this, this, this, we're going to get to 150 million in revenue.

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[SPEAKER_01] We're going to sell for 450. Without, you can't reveal it because Curtis Jackson, well, Curtis Jackson do, but is it like, would it be crazy to give someone 10% of a company like that? Yeah. 10% won't be too high.

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[SPEAKER_00] But we sold for 4 billion. So you can do the math on what he would have made.

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[SPEAKER_02] It seems like that the influence thing obviously works, obviously makes sense, but also obviously goes wrong sometimes, right? For example, this podcast, we got bought by HubSpot. HubSpot was like, yo, we want to reach entrepreneurs. We want them to use our software. So they went to us because we influence a lot of entrepreneurs. If we influence a million entrepreneurs, we're valuable to them and many other brands. And so, but there's many people who get that partnership wrong. Celebrities are busy. They're divas. They don't really care. Maybe you didn't make an incentive enough.

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[SPEAKER_02] Yo, we want to reach entrepreneurs. We want them to use our software. So they went to us because we influence a lot of entrepreneurs. If we influence a million entrepreneurs, we're valuable to them and many other brands. And so, but there's many people who get that partnership wrong. Celebrities are busy. They're divas. They don't really care. Maybe you didn't make an incentive enough and it's hard to claw back. So I guess, how confident were you and what made it go right versus go wrong?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] I think what makes it go right, it happened with 50. It happened with Jennifer Aniston on Smartwater. And I think it happened most recently for me with Alex Earl on Poppy and the connective tissue that 50, Jennifer and Alex all share is belief in the brand, creative connectivity. They creatively got the brand and connected with, they believed in it, they creatively connected with it and they went above and beyond. Those are the three things when consumers, because consumers are smart, okay, that's the real deal, right? Alex loves Poppy. I see the cool stuff she's doing with it. And honestly, she's probably the smartest 24-year-old I've ever met where she knows her brand, knows her DNA, makes me feel old. She is on it, you know? Love of the brand, cultural, creative connectivity and then going above and beyond.

SPEAKER_01

When you're looking at these deals, what would you say are the traits that the winners have in common and what would you say the traits are of the losers? So, for example, we had this guy named Chad who started Groons on and he sold it. Yeah, so he sold it for $2 billion. 1.2. $1.2 billion in 35 months or something insane. And we were like, and he was like, he was like, I called my shot. I worked at a PE firm and I realized that the TAM needs to be big. My CAC to LTV needs to be one to three. He's like, I had it down to a little bit of a science. He didn't say it that way, but that's how I interpreted it. What's the science in your head not for investing, but for building a winning product?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it's similar. I mean, one, let's start with big categories, right? At Carvu, our game plan is, we're basically trying to, in a nutshell, upgrade the products that everyday Americans are using with better quality, right? So, I'm not recreating the wheel. I'm just giving you a better wheel. That makes sense. And so, take the biggest tabs in food, in beverage, in beauty, in pet. At Carvu, we're like, okay, well, you like soda? Maybe a Coke or a fan is not good for you. We're going to upgrade you to a poppy. You like pet food, but extruded kibble that has very low nutrient value ain't good. We're going to give you farmer's dog, right? The goal is, how do you give Americans what they're used to, but elevate it so they can feel better about themselves?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] What are the big tabs that are left where you're like, we still haven't found the winning brand or product in a certain category? Like, if I go to that grocery shop or I go to the supermarket, where do you see the opportunities right now? Which aisle? [SPEAKER_00] Everywhere. Let me explain why. Go down every aisle. By the way, my wife gets super pissed with me because she sends me out to get stuff in the grocery store and like two hours later, it's like, where the hell have you been? I'm like, honey, this is my business. [SPEAKER_02] where do you see the opportunities right now?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] Which aisle? Everywhere. Let me explain why. Go down every aisle. By the way, my wife gets super pissed with me because she sends me out to get stuff in the grocery store and two hours later, it's like, where the hell have you been? I'm like, honey, this is my business. My dumb ass wandering around the grocery store figuring out what's broken. But that's the scenario. Go down and say, okay, would I buy all these products? And my guess is if you go to a traditional grocery store where most Americans shop today, you'll probably say, no, no, no, no, yes. So you have seven no's before you get to a yes. Go down the candy aisle.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, I have an investment in a brand called Skinny Dip. Have you heard of it? [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I love this. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. This is so addictive. Right. But the almond tab is okay. It's chocolate. Is this almond? Almond tab is this big. Creating sweet treats that don't have guilt, right, is this big. So, Skinny here, chocolate covered almonds. The brilliance of the founder was after X number of years, she's like, this shit ain't working. It's doing fine, but my tams are big enough, right? To the point you made with Chad, she pivoted. She created peanut butter cups, she created coconut bites, and she created wafers.

SPEAKER_00

You want to name me the three products that do that? Reese's, Almond Joy, and Kit Kat. By the way, all three of these products, sub two grams of sugar. So now, I can have, and I do, a coconut bite every day with my coffee or after dinner because I need a sweet fix, but zero shit's given because it's two grams of sugar. You don't care if it's two grams of sugar. You give your kid, you'll have it. 10 grams, 20 grams, your mind starts clicking a little bit. [SPEAKER_01] Is it possible to even be more specific when you're walking around the aisle? [SPEAKER_01] Is there a spot where you're like, this product should be right here on this shelf and it's not?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so go to the confection shelf and say, what will I eat? And I look down, I'm like, almost nothing because everything is fully loaded with sugar and it's really highly processed. So now, take the process down. There's a lot of good stuff that's less processed, better ingredients. Can we agree on that? There is. However, the sugar content is still high. So now, I've evolved from horrible stuff to maybe an alter ego chocolate or a huge chocolate. They're great, but they still got a high sugar content. So, you ask me what I do. I go sit at the entire confection shelf, I put my arms up, I look around, what would I eat?

SPEAKER_00

The only thing that I can eat is Skinny and maybe one other product because I feel good about it. [SPEAKER_02] So let me ask you a question. [SPEAKER_02] You had this great line where you go, the shelf space is the original algorithm. [SPEAKER_02] The same way that content creators are constantly trying to figure out how to get on the YouTube shelf or the Instagram shelf, how do I get discovered there? [SPEAKER_02] It's even harder, arguably, because there's a very mafia-like business practices that occurs behind the scenes of these shelf spaces. [SPEAKER_02] Like I've walked through one of our events that we do.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] Guys have brands at Target or Safeway or whatever. [SPEAKER_02] We walk through and we do store walks and then they explain, Mr. Beast, he'll explain how the candy aisle works and he'll explain Mars and Hershey's and the tactics they use and how the color, your color blocking, your section, et cetera. [SPEAKER_02] So you get this sort of PhD in each aisle. [SPEAKER_02] I think his market's

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] or Safeway or whatever. We walk through and we do store walks and then they explain, Mr. Beast, he'll explain how the candy aisle works and he'll explain Mars and Hershey's and the tactics they use and how the color, your color blocking, your section, et cetera, et cetera. So you get a PhD in each aisle. I think his market's a little bit different. So you sell, let's say skinny dip, just a little higher price point, better for you is the bigger angle, whereas he's one of the fastest growing brands in Walmart, right? And so his price point has to be a big constraint. So he has to play a slightly different game, but he's doing a lot of stuff with his better for you isn't in the ingredients, it's in the business practices. So we don't use child labor on the cocoa farms and things like that, which he cares about. He's trying to get everyone to care. Will it change people's purchasing decisions, I think is a question. But the thought process is how do you get the shelf space?

SPEAKER_00

Our reverse engineer, one of the advantages I bring to the mix, right? We talked a lot about influencer and so on and so forth. The second influencer and probably as important is retail buyers. And I have now established, because I've brought up a run of great products and exits and scale, great connections with the top people at Walmart, Target and Albertsons and Kroger, et cetera. And just maintaining those relationships are key because when I bring a product that I've invested in or Kavu's invested in, they will give us shelf space. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs come to us because they're saying, okay, I can do X, Y, and Z, but if I just get one meeting with the top guy at Walmart, that could inflect my business in a way that's unique. So I have the relationships now. However, retailers are smart and they are actually closer to the consumer than big corporations. So they are seeking the products of tomorrow while maintaining what I call the brands of yesterday. Because you can't eliminate the brands of yesterday. Too much money, too much revenue. At the same time, you then also have to bridge to the brands of tomorrow. And Sam, to your point, take Poppy. A regular soda is probably a buck for a can, right? A Poppy is probably a buck, 60, 70, 80, depending where you buy it, 90. What do you pay the extra 50 cents, 60 cents, 90 cents? Probably. It's not a BMW versus a Toyota. It's a 20,000, 30,000 difference there. Here, it's a 30, 60, 90 cents difference. So a big part of what I do also is when I go to retail, whilst the product might be premium, I still want to try and appeal to a large amount of Americans in their ability to reach those products where they're attainable. And so the retailers are looking for brands that are attainable, even though it's slightly premium, that are the future brands.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] You said something earlier that was important. You go, the third thing I do is how to sell it. And there's a huge value swing at the end. When me and Sam sold our companies, it's amazing. You work six years, seven years, eight years. And then 50% of the value is going to be how good you are at this M&A thing at the end. It's crazy. That you've never done before, but it's the biggest deal of your life. And so I've seen that firsthand, how important that is and how it is a separate skill set for an entrepreneur that you're very low repetitions in. So it's hard to even get good at it. [SPEAKER_02] of the value [SPEAKER_02] is going to be

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] how good you are [SPEAKER_02] at this M&A thing [SPEAKER_02] at the end. [SPEAKER_02] It's crazy. [SPEAKER_02] That you've never done before, [SPEAKER_02] but it's the biggest deal [SPEAKER_02] of your life. [SPEAKER_02] And so I've seen that firsthand, [SPEAKER_02] how important that is [SPEAKER_02] and how it is [SPEAKER_02] a separate skill set [SPEAKER_02] for an entrepreneur [SPEAKER_02] that you're very low [SPEAKER_02] repetitions in. [SPEAKER_02] So it's hard [SPEAKER_02] to even get good at it. [SPEAKER_01] It's a really unfair advantage [SPEAKER_01] because a reputable buyer [SPEAKER_01] has done this many times [SPEAKER_01] and it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] It doesn't matter to them [SPEAKER_01] necessarily if it fails. [SPEAKER_01] They'll just get fired, [SPEAKER_01] worst case scenario.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] But for you, [SPEAKER_01] it changes your life. [SPEAKER_01] Completely. So how do you go get Coke to buy a company for $2 billion? What do you do? How do those conversations happen? How do you negotiate those deals? And why do they buy them

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] for so much? So that's, again, why I've established and have relationships everywhere, but I have a relationship with a lot of big CPGs, right? Coke, Pepsi, Hershey, Mondelez, KDP. So I've done that over time. A lot of these guys have either worked for me or worked with me over time because I've been doing this now for 25 years in the industry, right? Maybe longer. And so relationships with the top guys, it's critical. So with one bar, I walked them in back in the day to Hershey, to the CEO of Hershey at the time, right? I didn't negotiate the Videnwater deal. The founder of Videnwater, Darius, did brilliantly, and I learned from him, by the way.

SPEAKER_00

So I'm on the sidelines watching this guy go to town. I brought Coke to the table. So I called Coke because I used to work for them. Sandy Douglas, a mentor of mine, he brought the CEO, he was the president, and they negotiated with Darius and I saw what he did and I learned from that. [SPEAKER_01] Out of that negotiation, [SPEAKER_01] what was one thing [SPEAKER_01] you picked up? If you have a great brand, it's okay to be slightly unhinged on your expectation. Like when he said the number starts with a four, I almost fell off my chair. I'm like, did he just say four? And I thought four B and Coke came back at 4.1. I'm like, all right, guy.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] Sometimes you get nervous [SPEAKER_00] because there's a fine line, [SPEAKER_00] guys. [SPEAKER_00] This is, [SPEAKER_00] Sean, [SPEAKER_00] you made such a great point. [SPEAKER_00] You spend anywhere [SPEAKER_00] from four to ten, [SPEAKER_00] fifteen years building your baby. [SPEAKER_00] And then the finish line [SPEAKER_00] is where the money is made. [SPEAKER_00] And so sometimes you get scared [SPEAKER_00] because if you overreach, [SPEAKER_00] which I've also done, [SPEAKER_00] and you fail, [SPEAKER_00] you might be catching

SPEAKER_00

a falling knife. But if you underreach, then you keep kicking yourself with how much you left on the table.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] Dial in on that. [SPEAKER_01] That's interesting [SPEAKER_01] because A,

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] knowing if you have a great brand [SPEAKER_01] is actually a bit challenging, [SPEAKER_01] but overreach and underreaching, [SPEAKER_01] that is also very nuanced. [SPEAKER_01] Is there some more specific details [SPEAKER_01] that you can give [SPEAKER_01] on how you know, [SPEAKER_01] for example, [SPEAKER_01] do you look at comps [SPEAKER_01] and you say, [SPEAKER_01] we're just going to be [SPEAKER_01] the top quartile? [SPEAKER_01] What do you do? [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, [SPEAKER_01] it's a very good question. Timing is everything, by the way, right? Poppy sold for half of what Vitamwater did, except Poppy grew faster than Vitamwater, is a bigger scale brand

SPEAKER_00

than Vitamwater ever was. But timing was different, right? At that time, there was a willingness and the money was more, liquidity was freer and greater to pay more, right? So, and risks were different. So, I think the same with tech valuations, right? People were investing in 2021 at bonkers valuations, that slowed down and now AI is also knocked.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] So, [SPEAKER_00] there's a timing mechanism. [SPEAKER_00] So, [SPEAKER_00] you should have belief [SPEAKER_00] and faith in who you are, [SPEAKER_00] but do not always benchmark

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] Liquidity was freer and greater to pay more, right? So, and risks were different. So, I think the same with tech valuations, right? People were investing in 2021 at bonkers valuations, that slowed down and now AI is also knocked. So, there's a timing mechanism. So, you should have belief and faith in who you are, but do not always benchmark against the biggest number you've seen. And that's a danger entrepreneurs have. They're like, look, this company sold for seven times revenue, I'm going for seven and if I don't get it, I'm out. I'm like, bro, take it easy. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And at some point, when you're ready, you're going to have X number of beholders. And if they say your beauty is 600 million, that's your beauty. Now, you can take a risk and pass and wait for a bigger number and that's okay. But, the groups that pass and wait for a bigger number are few and far between and they don't always work out. Some do.

SPEAKER_01

I also think that there's definitely a showmanship that is involved here. It's very, I've only, I've known you now for 57 minutes. You have it. You have a likability, a charisma, whatever it is you want to call it. Are you in the room negotiating these deals? In some way, I am.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] So, with Poppy, we brought a, it's also good to, you have to have a banker and bankers have done this, right? So, get a good banker, get good rep. So, we had Goldman Sachs with Poppy. I built a great relationship with them. They actually brought Pepsi to the table initially and without getting into it, the number and the offer was inadequate. So, I did what I said is a risky move, which is I walked because I didn't like the construct of the deal. And then, someone else came to the table. I also walked because I didn't like the construct of the deal. And before I speak to Steve and Allison, they were probably getting nervous at this point because I was blessed to have had exits before. They hadn't had any and even Stevie was losing it at one point because they're like, this is life-changing money that Rose is saying no to. But I just didn't like the construct because it wasn't a full buyout. The earnouts won. And so, third time's a charm. So, when Pepsi came back, I ended up negotiating that directly with them.

SPEAKER_01

Did it change your life too? [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. It's, you know, when you have a massive win like this, you always have to step back and realize how blessed you are. Not take it for granted. See what you could do for others and those around you. And a good thing for me was I let a lot of people into the deal. So, it wasn't just me. I had family, friends. One of my closest childhood friends was in the deal. And so, when you affect other people beyond yourself, that's huge.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] You said a bunch of things earlier that I want to ask you, like the same question but with a different caveat. Sometimes I'll be like, hey, how do you sell this company? You're like, well, I called the guy. I know him. How do you get on the shelf? Well, they know me and I know them. And like, that's true and great and an extreme advantage today. But two problems. One, you didn't wake up. You weren't born with that. You earned that somehow. And the second is, it's not, most entrepreneurs don't have that advantage if they don't partner with you. You know, just in general, people have to figure out how do you survive?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] That's true and great and an extreme advantage today. But two problems. One, you didn't wake up. You weren't born with that. You earned that somehow. And the second is, most entrepreneurs don't have that advantage if they don't partner with you. Just in general, people have to figure out how do you survive? No one's going to come save you. Do you have an insane hustle story from the beginning? Because that's what gets me excited. After this, I'm going to go work and nothing fires me up more than a good hustle story. You have to have hustle

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] at every stage, by the way. So, I'll give you a poppy story, which is later. I've had a bunch of exits, but I'm still hustling. Because guess what? People change out of roles in corporations. So, when I say I know people, historically, I've used bankers, I've used brokers, I've used people who are in the industry, which you have to use as an entrepreneur. You've got to build a relationship with everybody so that they get you in the room. And then when you get your shot, you make it work. So, I'll give a shout out to my buddy, Danny Stebber. I don't know if you know Danny. Danny's a legend of the beverage industry. I went to the beverage forum, just finished yesterday. It's probably the best beverage conference in any beverage entrepreneur should be there. It's the best beverage conference in America. And I went there two years ago and Danny said, Ro, would you speak? I said yes, I'll speak. But there's a but in this thing, I need a Walmart and a Target meeting while I'm at your conference. And he had some of the lead guys from Walmart and Target. They don't know me. They know of me, but it's not like just because I walk in, they're still Walmart. They're like, Ro, screw you, we're Walmart. And so, I went in and I danced. Me, Alison, Chris Hall, the CEO, and I danced. And I danced the modern soda dance because we were sucking wind at Walmart. We were doing everything else. And I'm like, this is my one shot. And I came in and I painted the vision. I said, guys, this is not prebiotic soda. This is modern soda for tomorrow's generation. And I made a full story. And the light bulb went off at Walmart's head. And the head buyer, Will, amazing guy, went away, believed in the vision, got behind it. His boss, Melanie, was a rock star at Walmart, accelerated it from 2025 into end of 24. And Poppy did this. That was the moment Poppy went into explosive growth mode. And I'm doing the hustle. I'm doing the dance. And by the way, I've been very successful. But if you come in with an ego and you're not willing to dance for retailers, regardless who you are, they don't give two shits.

SPEAKER_01

I know that Kavu is incredibly successful now. I know that I believe it's many billion dollar funds. You've had multi-billion dollar exits. And I know that you started like in the Mars factory, like I think you said, counting M&Ms. Twix. Sorry, Twix. The show is called My First Million. I don't know the middle ground. What did you do to make your first million? Because was it investing your own money in brands? Was it because you got equity in vitamin water?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] My first million, so I got fired from Coke, too creative, disruptive. And I went to this no-name company called Vitamin Water. In fact, I send a bunch of product to my friends and they didn't even drink it. That's the power of brand, by the way. They didn't drink it. And two years later, the same jackass that called me, bro, vitamin water's huge and my kids love it. I'm like, dude, I sent that to you two years ago. You never said shit to me.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] no-name company called Vitamin Water. In fact, I send a bunch of product to my friends and they didn't even drink it. That's the power of brand, by the way. They didn't drink it. And two years later, the same jackass that called me, bro, Vitamin Water's huge and my kids love it. I'm like, dude, I sent that to you two years ago. You never said anything to me. Anyway, so I put my own money in. I borrowed from my dad. So I'm broke as a joke and I borrowed from my dad and I get equity. And so I went from fumes on my bank account because I was spending everything I was making to the Vitamin Water exit. And that was my first million or more than that, but it was putting everything that I had. And I think that's honestly where you make a big bet, you put everything into it. And if it works out, that's where you get your biggest paydays.

SPEAKER_01

Did you raise money for a fund right after that? Where you're like, no, I did my own thing. So I did Vitamin Water, Smart Water. I exited. I had my own money. So what's the phrase they say? You invest off your balance sheet. Some finance phrase. So anyway, yes, I invested off my balance sheet, meaning I went in solo, Rohan, into Vitacoco, into Bai, into Popchips. And Stevie was my right-hand wing woman in this case. And so she was my, she learned marketing from me. We did it together. And now she's the head of marketing for Carvun.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] That's really interesting. And what I'm asking is really personal. So you can avoid it or you can give as much information as you want. But I find that to be cool. And there's a lot of people listening who are like, I would like to make a little bit of money and spend a little bit of money doing what this guy's doing. That's badass. I don't want to start a fund yet. Are you able to give any type of numbers as to what you had when you started investing in Popchips and all these companies? Yeah, I can give you a range. I was investing anywhere from probably half a million to two million. [SPEAKER_01] That's a shitload for an angel investment.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I wasn't that smart, dude. I was a little unhinged. I had, long term, it worked out great. I don't advocate you go that heavy. Were you really rich? No, I was just, I think I bet myself a little too much. So yeah, I had a lot more money than that, but I think you have to be willing to lose if you're going to win. [SPEAKER_02] Did you tell yourself like, okay, I'm willing to lose 10 million bucks, but I'm going to bet on myself to make a few concentrated bets. Did you mentally partition like, this is losable money or you just were going and you didn't even think about it?

SPEAKER_00

There's a lot of stress. So I was doing the math. I'm like, okay, I'm in for this. I'm in for this. I'm in for this. And then X years later, I'm like, well, I'm in, I'm in for 10, but I've made 10 times that. So I think I'm good. So it's organic. What percent for the principal, not the markups, what percent of your liquid net worth was in private deals? [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, a lot. I also really should have done a better job with my public. I was very into my privates because I had made my money on private. So it's far too high. Was it like all?

SPEAKER_00

No, no, it's probably about a third though. I mean, I don't know. I was a decent amount. I can't remember exactly. I was rolling heavy. I really should have done a better job with my Publix. I was very into my privates because I had made my money on private. So it's far too high. Was it all? No, no, it's probably about a third though. I don't know. I was a decent amount. I can't remember exactly. I was rolling heavy. I was in my thirties and Pubchips was a great brand and I bet on that, but I didn't understand the importance of a pref stack.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] So you were just making bets and then going out and hustling on your behalf. You're like, hey, I'm going to beverage forum and I'm just going to figure out how to wheel and deal a little bit. Yeah, I was working with these companies. I would help the Pubchips guys with influencers or with marketing or team. I'd bring in the head of sales, the head of marketing or— You were free. You were a free hire. Yeah, I'm like, let me in. I'll help you out. Sometimes I got equity for helping. And the good news is my hits in Vitacoco, the coconut water, buy Vital Proteins and Poppy far outstripped whatever I'd lost. And the order of winners was vitamin water.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] You did that with. You did it with smart water. And then what was the order of the next five deals? [SPEAKER_01] I did vitamin smart. Then I did Vitacoco, the coconut water, which is great. Kerbin's an incredible operator. Did that exit? The guy's got worth. The company's worth two and a half billion on the public stock market. [SPEAKER_01] Wow. I didn't know that. Okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] With the thing coconut water, right? My business partner, Ben, he's been trying to get me to drink banana water. He's like, oh, banana water. And I do, it's nasty. Can't believe he likes it, but he's like, banana water. That's the next coconut water. I'm like, I don't think it is. [SPEAKER_02] How do you spot the real trends versus the false trends? Are you just trusting your own taste buds? Or is it research you're doing? Are you watching what high schoolers are doing? What are you doing to figure out real trend versus fizzle out trend?

SPEAKER_00

Taste buds and tam. Coconut water wasn't a coconut water tam. It was a hydration tam, right? Taste buds, maybe it's bad because I'm of Indian origin. I like coconut water, but look, let's be honest. I got an early exit at a $700 million valuation, right? So I got in at, I don't know, 30. So I made 20 times my money. The thing's now worth north of two billion. So I didn't have the vision that Mike has, who's a CEO founder, that this could be north of a $2 billion public company. No chance I had that vision. To me, the tam was limited by the taste of coconut water in America. So sometimes, knowing where to hold them, knowing where to fold them. So I got out, I made good money. I will never begrudge the money that I could have made. But I got it. So I was out on that one. But then I got into buy, and I rode buy all the way. And the founder, Ben, is super smart. And I got him introduced to KDP. And he built a brilliant relationship with the CEO of KDP, and then sold that for 1.7 billion.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] I think one of the great tests of marketing is, can you sell water? How do you sell water? Right? What's the—there's a marketing genius about figuring out how to sell water, and not just once, how to sell it many times in many different ways. I've only done one water, by the way. I've done many beverages, but only one water. Okay. Well, vitamin water, not a water. Yeah. Vitamin water is flavored, right? Poppy is flavored. Vitacoco, buy, they're all flavored. When you do straight water, I still don't know how the hell I did that, but I'll take a crack. [SPEAKER_02] I've only done one water. By the way, I've done many beverages, but only one water.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so vitamin water, not a water. Yeah, vitamin water is flavored, right? Poppy is flavored. Vitacoco, buy, they're all flavored. When you just straight water, I still don't know how the hell I did that, but I'll take a crack. The founder of Darius created Vitacomar Water with a really good story, which is vapor distilled water. It's how water is made in the world, right? Water evaporates from the ocean, goes up, hydrogen and oxygen separate, all the impurities fall out. It comes back to earth.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] That first drop of rainwater before it enters the atmosphere, before it hits the ground, that's pure water.

SPEAKER_00

So that was the initial vision behind smart one. The packaging was not great. It was invisible. So I redo the package. The current package was me and my team, which sits on shelf today. Then we did the influencer strategy. And I felt that Evian was the only player in America that was in premium water, but it's a French company. It was in plastic being shipped across the ocean. It didn't make sense. And neither did Fiji being shipped from Fiji. Why can't we have a premium American water that has, and the thing is your water is a badge. When you walk around with the water more than anything else, it's a little bit of a reflection of you, right?

SPEAKER_00

That's why at home, who cares? You buy the case packs at Costco and 24 packs for $2. But when you're walking around, you want a different badge. And I think with the team I had, Jennifer Aniston became the face of the brand, the new packaging we did. Smart became this go-to accessory, particularly for women. And the brand took off. And I think when Coke bought vitamin water, if you ask them today, the brand that has worked out for them is Smart water, not vitamin. [SPEAKER_02] So I remember when Beats by Dre came out, and it was this headphone brand, just many other Bose and others.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] But instead of going for audiophiles, everywhere you saw it was basically hip hop artists and athletes walking into the stadium. [SPEAKER_02] And it became synonymous with the pregame lock-in associated with the coolest athletes and artists. [SPEAKER_02] And that was amazing.

SPEAKER_02

They created billions of dollars of value by that association, that placement of the pregame or the walk-in. And I think that I've read stories about Grey Goose and some of the liquor brands where they would put it in the limousines or the after parties of the Oscars. And just where it was seen was almost as important as the story of how it was triple filtered and distilled because nobody actually ends up knowing that. They just see where it's seen. Did you ever use that tactic or what is that?

SPEAKER_00

That was huge for me back in the day. So now this strategy is done really through social and digital, right? So digital influencers, when all top sororities are running around posting poppy and having it at the sorority kickoff parties, I have an army of amazing college ambassadors and poppy is the number one drink on college campuses. So modern day Red Bull playbook basically? Yeah, but it's a better for you, feel good vibe. And definitely better for women than from a connection standpoint. But back in the day, I did this with the Oscars, with the Golden Globes.

SPEAKER_00

Smart water was the first water on the table at the Golden Globes before they were pouring out of just the, and so I did a deal with them. So suddenly every table you go to, you're seeing a smart water there. And then vitamin, I used to sponsor, mainly because I wanted to go to the parties. So Patrick Whitesell, I've heard of Patrick, he's too big time now, but Patrick used to go to the coolest post Oscar parties, Oscar and VMA, Golden Globes parties in LA. So just for me to get access to those things, I would sponsor them. But the good news is, I remember going to one, and it was back in what I call round one of JLo and Aflac dating.

SPEAKER_00

And I was at the party and JLo and Aflac are there. And everyone's drinking vitamin water back then. This is 2003, 2004. So I think you're dead right. In the early days, especially with products, they've got to appear in people's lifestyle areas, both physically and digitally. [SPEAKER_01] I didn't realize how big of a hustler you are. If you lose your hustle, you lose your edge. The guy who Sean and I know, Gulrez, who is the CEO of Jim Conner Fine Foods. He's like, bro, you are bloody intense.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] When I get into sessions with him, he's like, I thought you would have chilled out. [SPEAKER_00] They've got to appear in people's lifestyle areas as both physically and digitally. [SPEAKER_00] You're a hustler. I didn't realize how big of a hustler you are. If you lose your hustle, you lose your edge. [SPEAKER_00] The guy who Sean and I know, Gulrez, who is the CEO of Jim Conner Fine Foods. He's intense. When I get into sessions with him, he's like, I thought you would have chilled out. You're a father. You're successful. I'm like, bro, it's go time. We're building your empire. You've got to have a hustle mode. And I think founders respect that.

SPEAKER_01

I want to ask you a different question. I'm obsessed with brands that last a long time. I'm also a massive American history buff. And some of the best brands in America have been around for over a century. Coke, Snickers, M&Ms, brands that you've worked with. I think Mars is a $50 billion a year business that's family owned. Hershey's is run by a family trust. I think they do something like 10 or 20 billion a year in revenue. And these brands—everyone talks about getting healthy, but Reese's probably isn't going to go away for the next 50 years. Coke probably won't go away for a hundred years. And you've worked with startups. Is there anything that I or Sean or the listener can learn from these old big companies that have been around for a hundred plus years?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] They do a very good job of two things. They're managing their installed base. They have fantastic retail presence. And they do great marketing to maintain relevance for their brands. I'm almost shocked how well they do it in a world where technically you shouldn't be eating or drinking any of those products. However, where they are smart—and I give Pepsi credit for this—they go out and buy the future as well. Pepsi bought Poppy not because it's an apple cider vinegar beverage, but because they're seeing the vision. This could be right up there. And they've said it to me, this is between Pepsi, Mountain Dew, and Poppy—that should be their soda lineup and choose what you want. If you feel like having a Pepsi, great. And by the way, the growth is all coming, Sam, from their zero sugar products. It's not coming from Coke or Pepsi. It's Pepsi Zero.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] Pepsi Zero is crushing it. Coke Zero is crushing it. And Poppy fits into that realm. You still maintain your legacy, but you have to make sure you pick up the future. Otherwise, you will get left behind. And so I think you're seeing it—like Unilever bought Grünz, right? They're buying the future. There's a lot of M&A. Hershey just bought Lesser Evo. They are buying the future. And I think they're getting a little savvier and wiser in how they do it. Before, they would get brands that I don't think were built to last. And now to your point, Sam, I think they're trying to find brands that are built to last. And for me, if we look at all the exits we've been a part of, whether those brands continue growing 40% or just maintain a good scale—Vitamins Smart, Poppy, Vital Proteins, Buy, Farmer's Dog, Once Upon a Farm—we IPO'd that brand recently. They're all still there. And they will be here if managed right for the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years.

SPEAKER_01

Sean had a good question that he was telling me he had for you, but I'm going to ask it. He hasn't gotten to it yet. [SPEAKER_02] He hasn't gotten to it. He's a gifter.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] He's a gifter. [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I'm going to steal it from him. It was basically, if a young guy were to go and shadow you, what would they be surprised about how you spend your time? Shadow you for a day or a week? [SPEAKER_01] It's a great question, Sam. [SPEAKER_00] So a few things. I think what allows me—I think they will be a little surprised about how I can change lanes. [SPEAKER_01] He's a gifter. [SPEAKER_01] He's a gifter. [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, [SPEAKER_01] I'm going to steal it from him. [SPEAKER_01] And it was, if a young guy were to go and shadow you, what would they be surprised about how you spend your time?

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] Shadow you for like a day or a week, yeah. [SPEAKER_01] It's a great question, Sam.

SPEAKER_00

So a few things. I think what allows me, I think they will be a little surprised of how I can change lanes so rapidly. So part of my success and part of my failures are around my ADD. So I can go from five different company conversations with different founders to then figuring out the plumbing problem in my house to the new house that I'm trying to buy, but getting screwed on with the price. Like I can change lanes and gears very rapidly and be fully engaged. But by the end of it, I'm exhausted, right? My brain shut off and then I have to watch TV to unlock, to calm it down. So one of the things they'll find is how I rapidly able to change lanes. The second thing is, even though I personally don't operate at a detailed level personally, they'll be surprised at how detailed I get with the brands and founders I partner with because I have great recall of information. And so they're surprised. Sometimes the founders think I've forgotten something from like a month ago when I asked him about it. You can ask Ulrez, he's a classic, but I'm like, three weeks ago, we spoke about this. Where are you on this? He's like, how did you remember that? He thought because I forgot to come back, he could ignore me. And so my ability to recall and retain info because you have to go deep with founders because if you go shallow, you're not helping them out. It's got to be meaningful stuff that helps impact their business. And the third thing is I'm blessed to be living a great lifestyle. I'm living the American dream, right? I'm an immigrant that came here and did well, but I also am able to do high-low, right? So from where I eat, I'm the taco stand or where I go, I go and do the grocery shopping. I'm not sending someone. I'm like, I'm there, I'm picking stuff up because I think if you don't live in reality, you then can't operate in reality. You end up in this 1% world which doesn't help when you're dealing with products that deal with all Americans.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] I was talking to a buddy of ours who's a brilliant marketer and probably sold a billion dollars of products online and he, I opened up my laptop and he saw that I had Adblocker on and he's like, how could you? He's like, you're a marketer. [SPEAKER_02] He's like, you have to study your craft. Sit through every ad. He logged in and another guy logged into his Facebook and he's on Facebook. He's a woman. Like his profile is his but he told Facebook, I'm a woman because he's like, I want to see what they're marketing to a 40-year-old woman in America. That's the prime target.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] I need to see what's the messaging and I was like, there's levels to this game of intensity and detail. What do you stink at? Where's your weakness in business? [SPEAKER_02] I think sometimes

SPEAKER_00

I may have too much belief. You know when you love a product and you're like, you kind of have faith that blinds you a little bit to the, whether it's the founder you think is amazing or whether you love the product and you're not overly focused on the gross margins because I'm a big field of dreams, guys. Build it and they will come. But if you don't build it correctly, I feel the dream won't come. And sometimes when I love something a lot, I end up ignoring some of the red flags. So I think passion is a super important element, but passion at all costs can be dangerous.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] Let's leave it with this. While we're in the business of stealing questions, Patrick O'Shaughnessy has this great question he asked the guest at the end of every one of his Invest Like the Best episodes. And he asked the guest, he said, what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you in your career? And I'm just curious, I end up ignoring some of the red flags. So I think passion is a super important element, but passion at all costs can be dangerous. Let's leave it with this.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] While we're in the business of stealing questions, Patrick O'Shaughnessy has this great question he asked the guest at the end of every one of his Invest Like the Best episodes. [SPEAKER_02] And he asked the guest, he said, what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you in your career? [SPEAKER_02] And I'm just curious, what comes to mind when I say that? What's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you?

SPEAKER_00

I should just shout out to a guy. It's probably two of them. I've been adopted a couple of times. One time was at Coca-Cola when I was about to leave because they gave me a brand called Box Root Beer. You know that? Remember I told you I have a few mantras. One of my mantras influences the influence so the other has become a part of pop culture. The third one is live the brand. Well, I can't live Box Root Beer. I don't understand it. I grew up in Zambia. I bloody hate root beer. So I was on Sprite. Someone demoted me. And I ran Box. And two guys, and I was about to leave and my career would have been toast because I was going to some travel.com bullshit site that ended up folding. And two guys, a guy called Todd Potman and a guy called Darrell Cobbin kind of heard that we're leaving, saved me, said, we'll give you something different. Don't leave. They put me on Powerade and that changed the trajectory of my career once. And then when I got to Vitamwater, I was doing great. I took over all the marketing, but the founder and I kind of had different visions on how to market. And I don't think he liked my approach, but I was what was bringing the heat to the brand. And I think he wanted to fire me at one point. And so Mike Rupoli, who was the president of the company, changed reporting structure and put me under him so that, because he and I got on great. He said, well, look, take ego aside. Either you want to report to the CEO and get fired or report to me and I got you because now you're my guy. And so I said, I want money, I don't want ego. So I reported to Mike and I still ran marketing, but had defiled, it could have fired me, right? I was an employee at will. That would have also changed the trajectory of my career. So this is only the second podcast that you've done. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] Yeah, correct. [SPEAKER_02] Dude, thanks for coming on where should people go find you if they want to follow more, get more of what you're doing? You know what? It's a really good question and it's a horrible answer. You actually can't go anywhere yet other than you guys and one of the podcasts. [SPEAKER_02] Wait, so you don't have social media? [SPEAKER_02] Subscribe to this podcast if you want to see him again. The last one that was like that was Brian Johnson. He came on and he was just hacking on his own body and his own privacy of his own home and then he came on this podcast and so, you know, maybe you'll have a Netflix documentary soon.

SPEAKER_00

Maybe I can reverse age by 20 years. My wife would love that. [SPEAKER_01] We were his first podcast and, you know, Sean, I don't know if I ever told you this. He called me last year and he goes, hey, I just wanted to thank you because you were the first podcast that I ever did and you guys asked me a lot of really hard questions that I never even thought about. And so, A, I'm thankful for you for doing that and B, when I saw the response, I was, oh, I should do media and I should go hard. This works. It's crazy and look what he's done. You guys are the influence. Remember the one in 10? You are the one in 10, guys.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] My contrarian belief about Brian Johnson is that Brian Johnson is the greatest marketer alive right now. Possibly. [SPEAKER_02] I think he understands social media at a level that I don't know anybody else does. It's kind of remarkable. [SPEAKER_02] Jake Paul maybe, but yeah. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, exactly. Well, thanks, Ben. [SPEAKER_01] Thanks for coming on. You're awesome. Pleasure. [SPEAKER_02] My contrarian belief about Brian Johnson is that Brian Johnson is the greatest marketer alive right now. Possibly. I think he understands social media at a level that I don't know anybody else does. It's remarkable. Jake Paul maybe, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] Yeah, exactly. [SPEAKER_02] Well, thanks, Ben. [SPEAKER_01] Thanks for coming on. You're awesome. [SPEAKER_01] Pleasure. Thanks for taking the time. [SPEAKER_01] All right, that's it. That's the pub. All right, that's it. and that guy's a legend. And I think one of the other lessons you have to learn as an entrepreneur is having a founder and creator mind doesn't always align with having an operator mind. Sometimes it can. More often, it probably doesn't. More often, it doesn't. The one guy I think was really good at it was a guy called Kurt from Vital Proteins. I don't know if you know him. Kurt founded Vital Proteins. We partnered with him as well.

SPEAKER_00

And that guy was, he was actually a rocket scientist, like legit. So he was a founder and a brilliant operator. So that's, you know, it's a unique rarity. But in this case, we brought in Chris Hall and Chris ran Sparkling Ice. So I had to spend a lot of time like coaching and begging and then convincing and a combination of all of the above to get him over. But he was a game changer because you need to operate. And he helped take it

SPEAKER_01

from like 50 to 500. Man, it's still amazing how good you are at this. And I think we should talk about that because there's a handful of skill sets that are, you just, I call them ATM skills where you just become like a moneymaker. You know, like if you can create an audience, you're probably a moneymaker. If you can sell, you're probably a moneymaker. If you can do good branding, you're probably a moneymaker. And you've done it many times in a row. Where did you learn how to do this? Because I know you worked for Mars. You worked for Coke. Is that where you learned how to do this? And can you teach us more about how it's done? Actually, it's interesting

SPEAKER_00

you bring up that point. It's actually three things. One is spotting stuff early, right? One is building the brands and the other is actually how to sell them. And people forget the last part because there's a big graveyard of brands that have got built, got to scale, but never fully exited. And there's a bigger graveyard of those who just didn't go anywhere. And I think part of it, so take my learnings. My learnings on Mars were less so, because I was in manufacturing operations. So my learning there was almost like the importance of supply chain, operations, gross margin, like the boring stuff. But people forget that if you don't have good gross margins,

SPEAKER_00

you cannot make money. And if you can't make money, you go bankrupt. And by the way, I've still made that mistake. I had an incredible product called Chef's Cut. It was a jerky. Before Chomps, like my buddy invested in Chomps and he and I would joke because we were like neck and neck and Chef's came out first. And I just didn't have great gross margins. And I should have focused more on that. Chef's got shut down or got sold for nothing. And Chomps became a juggernaut. And so he keeps laughing at me. But I think from that perspective, I learned from Mars a little bit. You know, and you still make mistakes. With Coke, I learned how to do disruptive marketing and branding.

SPEAKER_00

Because I was lucky. I was in Sprite back in the heyday when we, you know, signed Missy Elliott and Kobe Bryant. And I did like a bunch of hip hop stuff. And it was really cool. And then I was in Powerade where Coke didn't care about it. So they said, do whatever you want. So I learned creative disruption early, even though I was in a corporate environment. And then they fired me because I was a little too disruptive. And so I went to Vitamortum. And that's where I really start to learn how to, and that's my second mantra, is how to make brands part of pop culture. There's a lot of guys who report the news. Very few people make the news. And so for me,

SPEAKER_00

with Vitamortum Smilewater, I started by making the news. And that, those brands became part of pop culture.

SPEAKER_02

That sounds cool. But what does that mean? Make the news? I don't know. I'm too dumb to understand that.

SPEAKER_00

So make the news. So the first influencer, mega influencer, ownership deal I did, because remember, everything before 50 was very much a sponsorship deal, right? You sign a celebrity, they get in, that's the deal, right? The equity ownership, arguably Michael did it in a different way with Nike, but that has come up later and it wasn't really well-known then. But with 50, I didn't have the money to pay 50. He was huge at the time, right? And so I met with 5th and his manager, Chris Lighty, and actually there's two guys I was looking at for Vitamortum. Because Vitamortum was a great brand, but it was a kind of a little bit Upper East Side, you know, New York preppy brand.

SPEAKER_00

It wasn't like nationwide cool. It wasn't getting shot in the face nine times. It wasn't getting shot in the face cool. And rap about it, yeah. Exactly. Although it was only eight times because one bullet went through twice. But anyway, Of course, sorry. So I wanted hip-hop and the two biggest names in the world at the time were Curtis Jackson and The Hover. It was Jay-Z, right? So those are the two guys who were like the biggest names. And so I called my buddy Seth Rodsky and I said, Seth, you're more connected in this world than I am. Who can I get to? Seth could have got to both but he had a much better relationship with Chris Leidy, 50's manager. So he put me on text

SPEAKER_00

with 50's manager. A lot of this also for artists, it's their managers getting it. So Chris got it straight away. He got the product. He got fifth. He said, we've not done a deal. We're about to do a deal with Reebok but I'll kill that deal. I'll do this with you. That's how I got connected. And 50, as we see today, is clearly an entrepreneur. Also don't mess with him because he will come after you with a vengeance. So I think that he got it and I said, I don't have money but I can give you skin in the game. And he immediately said, okay, I'm in. And I thought I was going to make him X. I kind of, he made 10X because I did the math wrong. He got what, like 1, 2%?

SPEAKER_00

Something like that in the company? I can't tell you exactly what he got because we have a deal. I don't give the exact number and he doesn't kick the shit out of me. But he made a lot because honestly, I gave him enough equity for him to make good money if we sold the company for 400 to 500 million. That was our goal of Itemwater. Like I remember Mike Rappoli, who was the co-founder of Itemwater, was like, bro, put it up as board. If we get to this, this, this, we're going to get to 150 million in revenue.

SPEAKER_01

We're going to sell for 450. Without, you can't reveal it because Curtis Jackson, well, Curtis Jackson do, but is it like, would it be crazy to give someone 10% of a company like that? Yeah. 10% won't be too high,

SPEAKER_00

but we sold for 4 billion. So you can do the math on, you know,

SPEAKER_02

what he would have made. It seems like that, you know, the kind of the influence and influence thing obviously works, obviously makes sense, but also obviously goes wrong sometimes, right? You know, for example, this podcast, we got bought by HubSpot. HubSpot was like, yo, we want to reach entrepreneurs. We want them to use our software. So they went to us because we influence a lot of entrepreneurs. If we influence a million entrepreneurs, we're valuable to them and many other brands. And so, but there's many people who get that partnership wrong. You know, celebrities are busy. They're divas. They don't really care. Maybe you didn't make an incentive enough

SPEAKER_02

and it's hard to claw back. So like, I guess, how confident were you and what made it go right

SPEAKER_00

versus go wrong? I think what makes it go right, it happened with 50. It happened with Jennifer Aniston on Smartwater. And I think it happened most recently for me with Alex Earl on Poppy and the connective tissue that 50, Jennifer and Alex all share is belief in the brand, creative connectivity. Like, they creatively got the brand and connected with, they believed in it, they creatively connected with it and they went above and beyond. Those are the three things when consumers, because consumers are smart, no, okay, that's the real deal, right? Like, Alex loves Poppy. I see the cool shit she's doing with it. And honestly, she's probably the smartest

SPEAKER_00

24-year-old I've ever met where she knows her brand, knows her DNA, makes me feel old. Like, she is on it, you know? Love of the brand, cultural, creative connectivity and then going above and beyond.

SPEAKER_01

When you're looking at these deals, what would you say are the traits that the winners have in common and what would you say the traits are of the losers? So, for example, we had this guy named Chad who started Groons on and he sold it. Yeah, so he sold it for $2 billion. 1.2. $1.2 billion in 35 months or something insane. And we were like, and he was like, basically, he was like, I called my shot. I worked at a PE firm and I realized that the TAM needs to be big. My CAC to LTV needs to be one to three. Like, he's like, I kind of had it down to a little bit of a science. He didn't say it that way, but that's how I interpreted it. What's the science in your head

SPEAKER_01

not for investing, but for building a winning product? Yeah,

SPEAKER_00

it's similar. I mean, one, let's start with big categories, right? At Carvu, our game plan is, we're basically trying to, in a nutshell, upgrade the products that everyday Americans are using with better quality, right? So, I'm not recreating the wheel. I'm just giving you a better wheel. That makes sense. And so, take the biggest tabs in food, in beverage, in beauty, in pet. At Carvu, we're like, okay, well, you like soda? Maybe a Coke or a fan is not good for you. We're going to upgrade you to a poppy. You like pet food, but extruded kibble that has very low nutrient value ain't good. We're going to give you farmer's dog, right? The goal is, how do you give Americans

SPEAKER_00

what they're used to, but elevate it so they can feel better about themselves?

SPEAKER_02

What are the big tabs that are left where you're like, we still haven't found the winning kind of brand or product in a certain category? Like, if I go to that grocery shop or I go to the supermarket, where do you see the opportunities right now? Which aisle?

SPEAKER_00

Everywhere. Let me explain why. Go down every aisle. By the way, my wife gets super pissed with me because she sends me out to get stuff in the grocery store and like two hours later, it's like, where the hell have you been? I'm like, honey, this is my business. Like, my dumb ass wandering around the grocery store figuring out what's broken. But that's the scenario. Go down and say, okay, would I buy all these products? And my guess is if you go to a traditional grocery store where most Americans shop today, you'll probably say, no, no, no, no, yes. So, you have seven no's before you get to a yes. Go down the candy aisle. Okay, I have an investment

SPEAKER_00

in a brand called Skinny Dip. Have you heard of it? Yeah,

SPEAKER_02

I love this. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00

this is so addictive. Right. But the almond tab is okay. It's chocolate. Is this almond? Almond tab is this big. Creating sweet treats that don't have guilt, right, is this big. So, Skinny here, chocolate covered almonds. The brilliance of the founder was after X number of years, she's like, this shit ain't working. It's doing fine, but my tams are big enough, right? To the point you made with Chad, she pivoted. She created peanut butter cups, she created coconut bites, and she created wafers. You want to name me the three products that do that? Reese's, Almond Joy, and Kit Kat. By the way, all three of these products, sub two grams of sugar. So now, I can have, and I do,

SPEAKER_00

a coconut bite every day with my coffee or after dinner because I need a sweet fix, but zero shit's given because it's two grams of sugar. You don't care if it's two grams of sugar. You give your kid, you'll have it. 10 grams, 20 grams, your mind starts clicking a little bit.

SPEAKER_01

Is it possible to even be more specific when you're walking around the aisle? Is there a spot where you're like, this product should be right here on this shelf and it's not?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so go to the confection shelf and say, what will I eat? And I look down, I'm like, almost nothing because everything is fully loaded with sugar and it's really highly processed. So now, take the process down. There's a lot of good stuff that's less processed, better ingredients. Can we agree on that? There is. However, the sugar content is still high. So now, I've evolved from horrible stuff to maybe like an alter ego chocolate or a huge chocolate. They're great, but they still got a high sugar content. So, you ask me what I do. I go sit at the entire confection shelf, I put my arms up, I look around, what would I eat? The only thing that I can eat is skinny

SPEAKER_00

and maybe one other product because I feel good about it.

SPEAKER_02

So let me ask you a question. You had this great line where you go, the shelf space is the original algorithm. The same way that content creators are constantly trying to figure out how to get on the YouTube shelf or the Instagram shelf, how do I get discovered there? It's even harder, arguably, because there's a very like mafia-like business practices that occurs in behind the scenes of these shelf spaces. Like I've walked through one of our events that we do. Guys have like brands at Target or Safeway or whatever. We walk through and we do store walks and then they explain, you know, Mr. Beast, he'll explain how the candy aisle works and he'll explain Mars and Hershey's

SPEAKER_02

and the tactics they use and how the color, your color blocking, your section, et cetera, et cetera. So you get this sort of PhD in each aisle. I think his market's a little bit different. So, you know, you sell like, let's say skinny dip, just a little higher price point, better for you is like the bigger angle, whereas, you know, he's I think the number, like one of the fastest growing brands in Walmart, right? And so his price point has to be a big constraint. So he has to play a slightly different game, but he's doing a lot of stuff with like his better for you isn't in the ingredients, it's in the business practices. So like we don't use child labor

SPEAKER_02

and the cocoa farms and, you know, things like that, which is, you know, he cares, he's trying to get everyone to care. Will it change people's purchasing decisions, I think is a question. But I guess the thought process is like, how do you get the shelf space? Well, I think what's

SPEAKER_00

our reverse engineer, one of the advantages I bring to the mix, right? We talked a lot about influencer and so on and so forth. The second influencer and probably as important is retail buyers. And I have now established because I've brought up a run of great products and exits and scale. I have great connections with the top people at Walmart, Target and Albertsons and Kroger, et cetera. And just maintaining those relationships are key because when I bring a product that I've invested in or Kavu's invested in, they will give us a shelf space. And I think that's, a lot of entrepreneurs come to us because they're like, okay, great. I can do X, Y, and Z, but if I just get

SPEAKER_00

one meeting with the top guy at Walmart, that could inflect, you know, inflect my business in a way that's unique. So I have the relationships now. However, retailers are smart and they are actually closer to the consumer than big corporations. So they are seeking the products of tomorrow while maintaining what I call the brands of yesterday. Because you can't eliminate the brands of yesterday. Too much money, too much revenue. At the same time, you then also have to bridge to the brands of tomorrow. And Sam, to your point, I mean, take Poppy. I mean, a regular soda is probably a buck for a can, right? A Poppy is probably a buck, 60, 70, 80, depending where you buy it,

SPEAKER_00

90. What do you pay the extra 50 cents, 60 cents, 90 cents? Probably. It's not like I'm buying a BMW versus I'm buying a Toyota. It's like a 20,000, 30,000 difference there. Here, it's a 30, 60, 90 cents difference. So a big part of what I do also is when I go to retail is whilst the product might be premium, I still want to try and appeal to a large amount of Americans in their ability to reach those products where they're attainable. And so I think that the retailers are looking for brands that are attainable, even though it's a slightly premium, that are the future brands. You said something earlier

SPEAKER_02

that was kind of important. You go, the third thing I do is how to sell it. And there's a huge value swing at the end. When me and Sam sold our companies, it's kind of amazing. You work six years, seven years, eight years. And then 50% of the value is going to be how good you are at this M&A thing at the end. It's crazy. That you've never done before, but it's the biggest deal of your life. And so I've seen that firsthand, how important that is and how it is a separate skill set for an entrepreneur that you're very low repetitions in. So it's hard to even get good at it. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01

it's a really unfair advantage because a reputable buyer has done this many times and it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter to them necessarily if it fails. They'll just get fired, worst case scenario. But for you, it changes your life. Completely. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02

so how do you go get Coke to buy a company for $2 billion? What do you do? How do those conversations happen? How do you negotiate those deals? And why do they buy them for so much?

SPEAKER_00

So that's, again, why, I mean, I've established, and I have relationships everywhere, but I have a relationship with a lot of big CPGs, right? Coke, Pepsi, Hershey, Mondelez, you know, KDP. So I've done that over time. A lot of these guys have either worked for, worked with over time because I've been doing this now for 25 years in the industry, right? Maybe longer. And so relationships with the top guys, it's critical. And so, you know, with one bar, I walked them in back in the day to Hershey, to the CEO of Hershey at the time, right? I didn't negotiate the Videnwater deal. The founder of Videnwater, Darius, did brilliantly, and I learned from him, by the way.

SPEAKER_00

So I'm on the sidelines watching this guy go to town. I brought Coke to the table. So I called Coke because I used to work for them. Sandy Douglas, the mentor of mine, he brought the CEO, he was the president, and they negotiated with Darius and I saw what he did and I learned from that. Out of that negotiation, what was one thing you picked up? If you have a great brand, it's okay to be slightly unhinged on your expectation. Like when he said the number starts with a four, I almost fell off my chair. I'm like, did he just say four? And I thought four B and Coke came back at 4.1. I'm like, all right, guy. He, you know, sometimes you get nervous

SPEAKER_00

because there's a fine line, guys. This is, Sean, you made such a great point. You spend anywhere from four to 10, 15 years building your baby. And then the finish line is where the money is made. And so sometimes you get scared because if you overreach, which I've also done, and you fail, you might be catching a falling knife. But if you underreach, then you keep kicking yourself with how much you left on the table.

SPEAKER_01

Dial in on that. That's interesting because A, knowing if you have a great brand is actually a bit challenging, but overreach and underreaching, that is also very nuanced. Is there like, is there like some more specific details that you can give on how you know, like, for example, do you look at comps and you say, we're just going to be the top quartile? What do you do? Yeah, it's a very good question. Timing is everything,

SPEAKER_00

by the way, right? Like, Poppy sold for half of what Vitamwater did, except Poppy grew faster than Vitamwater, is a bigger scale brand than Vitamwater ever was. But timing was different, right? At that time, there was a willingness and the money was more, liquidity was freer and greater to pay more, right? So, and risks were different. So, I think the same with tech valuations, right? People were investing in 2021 at bonkers valves, that slowed down and now AI is also knocked. So, there's a timing mechanism. So, you should have belief and faith in who you are, but do not always benchmark against the biggest number you've seen. And that's a danger entrepreneurs have.

SPEAKER_00

They're like, look, this company sold for seven times revenue, I'm going for seven and if I don't get it, I'm out. I'm like, bro, take it easy. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And at some point, when you're ready, you're going to have X number of beholders. And if they say your beauty is 600 million, that's your beauty. Now, you can take a risk and pass and wait for a bigger number and that's okay. But, the groups that pass and wait for a bigger number are few and far between and they don't always work out. Some do.

SPEAKER_01

I also think that there's definitely like a there's a showmanship that is involved here. It's very, I've only, I've known you now for 57 minutes. You have it. You have a likability, a charisma, whatever it is you want to call it. Are you in the room negotiating these deals? In some way, I am.

SPEAKER_00

So, with Poppy, we brought a, it's also good to, you have to have a banker and bankers have done this, right? So, get a good banker, you know, get good rep. So, we had Goldman Sachs with Poppy. I built a great relationship with them. They actually brought Pepsi to the table initially and without getting into it, the number and the offer was inadequate. So, I did what I said is a risky move, which is I walked because I didn't like the construct of the deal. And then, someone else came to the table. I also walked because I didn't like the construct of the deal. And before I speak to Steve and Allison, they were probably getting nervous at this point because, you know,

SPEAKER_00

I was blessed to have had exits before. They hadn't had any and even Stevie was losing it at one point because they're like, this is life-changing money that Rose saying no to. But I just didn't like the construct because it wasn't a full buyout. The earnouts won. And so, third time's a charm. So, when Pepsi came back, I ended up negotiating that directly with them. Did it change your life too? Yeah. It's, you know, when you have a massive win like this, you always have to step back and realize how blessed you are. Not take it for granted. See what you could do for others and those around you. And a good thing for me was I let a lot of people into the deal. So,

SPEAKER_00

it wasn't just me. I had family, friends. One of my closest childhood friends was in the deal. And so, when you affect other people beyond yourself, that's, that's huge. You said

SPEAKER_02

a bunch of things earlier that I want to ask you like the same question but with a different caveat. Sometimes I'll be like, hey, how do you sell this company? You're like, well, I called the guy. I know him. How do you get on the shelf? Well, they know me and I know them. And like, that's true and great and an extreme advantage today. But two problems. One, you didn't wake up. You weren't born with that. You earned that somehow. And the second is, it's not, you know, most entrepreneurs don't have that advantage if they don't partner with you. You know, just in general, people have to figure out how do you survive? No one's going to come save you.

SPEAKER_02

Do you have an insane hustle story from the beginning? Because that's what gets me excited. After this, I'm going to go work and nothing fires me up more than a good hustle story. You have to have hustle

SPEAKER_00

at every stage, by the way. So, I'll give you a poppy story, which is later. I've had a bunch of exits, but I'm still hustling. Because guess what? People change out of roles in corporations. So, when I say I know people, historically, I've used bankers, I've used brokers, I've used people who are in the industry, which you have to use as an entrepreneur. You've got to build a relationship with everybody so that they get you in the room. And then when you get your shot, you make it work. So, I'll give a shout out to my buddy, Danny Stebber. I don't know if you know Danny. Danny's kind of a legend of the beverage industry. I went to the beverage forum,

SPEAKER_00

just finished yesterday. It's probably the best beverage conference in any beverage entrepreneur should be there. It's the best beverage conference in America. And I went there two years ago and Danny said, Ro, would you speak? I said, yes, I'll speak. But, there's a but in this thing, I need a Walmart and a Target meeting while I'm at your conference. And he had some of the lead guys from Walmart and Target. They don't know me, like, they know of me, but it's not like just because I walk in, they're still Walmart. They're like, Ro, screw you, we're Walmart. And so, I went in and I danced. Me, Alison, Chris Hall, the CEO, and I danced. And I danced the modern soda dance

SPEAKER_00

because we were sucking winded Walmart. We were doing everything else. And I'm like, this is my one shot. And I came in and I painted the vision. I said, guys, this is not prebiotic soda. This is modern soda for tomorrow's generation. And I made a full story. And the light bulb went off at Walmart's head. And the head buyer, Will, amazing guy, went away, believed in the vision, got behind it. His boss, Melanie, was a rock star at Walmart, accelerated it from 2025 into end of 24. And Poppy did this. That was the moment Poppy went into explosive growth mode. And I'm doing the hustle. I'm doing the dance. And by the way, I've been very successful. But if you come in

SPEAKER_00

with an ego and you're not willing to dance for retailers, regardless who you are, they don't give two shits. I know that

SPEAKER_01

Kavu is incredibly successful now. I know that, I believe it's many billion dollar funds. You've had multi-billion dollar exits. And I know that you started like in the Mars factory, like I think you said, counting M&Ms. Twix. Sorry, Twix. The show is called My First Million. I don't know like the middle ground. What did you do to make your first million? Because was it investing your own money in brands? Was it because you got equity in vitamin water? My first million, so I got fired from Coke,

SPEAKER_00

too creative, disruptive. And I went to this no-name company called Vitamin Water. In fact, I send a bunch of product to my friends and they didn't even drink it. That's the power of brand, by the way. They didn't drink it. And two years later, the same jackass that's called me, bro, vitamin water's huge and my kids love it. I'm like, dude, I sent that to you two years ago. You never said shit to me. Anyway, so I put my own money in. I borrowed from my dad. So I'm broke as a joke and I borrowed from my dad and I get equity. And so I went from, you know, fumes on my bank account because I was basically spending everything I was making to the vitamin water exit.

SPEAKER_00

And that was my first million or more than that, but it was putting everything that I had. And I think that's honestly where you make a big bet, you put everything into it. And if it works out, that's kind of where you get your biggest paydays. Did you raise money for a fund right after that? Where you're like, no, I did my own thing. So I did vitamin water, smart water. I exited. I had my own money. So what's the phrase they say? You invest off your balance sheet. Some bullshit finance phrase. So anyway, yes, I invested off my balance sheet, meaning I went in solo, Rohan, into Vitacoco, into Bai, into Popchips. And Stevie was my right-hand wing woman in this case.

SPEAKER_00

And so she was my, she learned marketing from me. We did it together. And now she's the head of marketing for Carvun.

SPEAKER_01

That's really interesting. And what I'm asking is really personal. So you can avoid it or you can give as much information as you want. But I find that to be cool. And there's a lot of people listening who are like, I would like to make a little bit of money and spend a little bit of money doing what this guy's doing. That's badass. I don't want to start a fund yet. Are you able to give any type of numbers as to what you had when you started investing in Popchip and all these companies? Yeah, I can give you a range. I was investing anywhere from probably half a million

SPEAKER_00

to two million. That's a shitload for an angel investment. Yeah. I wasn't that smart, dude. I was a little bit unhinged. I had, long term, I worked out great. I don't advocate you go that heavy. Were you really rich? No, I was just, I was, I think I better myself a little too much. So yeah, I had a lot more money than that, but I think you have to be willing to lose if you're going to win. Did you tell yourself like,

SPEAKER_02

okay, I'm willing to lose 10 million bucks, but I'm going to bet, I'm going to bet on myself to go make a few concentrated bets. Did you, did you sort of mentally partition like, this is losable money or you just, you were just going and you didn't even think about it? There's a lot of stress. So basically,

SPEAKER_00

I was kind of doing the math. I'm like, okay, I'm in for this. I'm in for this. I'm in for this. And then like, you know, X years later, I'm like, well, you know, I'm in, you know, I'm in for 10, but I've made, you know, 10 times that. So I think I'm good. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, it's organic. Like, you know, what percent, what print for the principle,

SPEAKER_01

not the markups, what percent of your liquid net worth was in private deals? Yeah, a lot. I also,

SPEAKER_00

I really should have done a better job with my Publix. I was very like into my privates because I had made my money on private. So it's far too high. Was it like, was it like all? No, no, it's probably about a third though. I mean, I don't know. Like, I don't know. I was a decent amount. I can't remember exactly. I was rolling heavy. I was like in my thirties and like Pubchips was a great brand and I bet on that, but I didn't understand the importance of a pref stack. So you were just like making bets and then like going out

SPEAKER_01

and hustling on your behalf. You're like, hey, I'm going to beverage forum and I'm just going to figure out how to wheel and deal a little bit. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00

I was working with these companies. Like I would help the Pubchips guys with influencers or with marketing or team. Like I'd bring in the head of sales, the head of marketing or- You were free. You were like a free hire a little bit. I was, yeah, I was like, I'm like, let me in. I'll help you out. Sometimes I got equity for helping. And so the good news is my hits in Vitacoco, the coconut water, buy Vital Proteins and Poppy far outstripped whatever I'd lost. And so the order of winners was vitamin water.

SPEAKER_01

You did that with. You did it with smart water. And then what was the order the next five deals? I did vitamin smart. Then I did Vitacoco. The coconut water, which is great. Kerbin's an incredible operator. Did that exit? Shit,

SPEAKER_00

the guy's got worth, the company's worth two and a half billion on the public stock market. Oh,

SPEAKER_01

wow. I didn't know that. Okay. Wow. With the thing like coconut water,

SPEAKER_02

right? Like my, my business partner, Ben, he's been trying to get me to drink freaking banana water. He's like, oh, banana water. And I do, it's nasty. Can't believe he likes it, but he's like, banana water. That's the next coconut water. I'm like, I don't think it is. How do you spot the real trends versus the false trends? Are you just trusting your own taste buds? Or is it some research you're doing? Are you watching what high schoolers are doing? Like what, what are you doing to figure out real trend versus fizzle out trend? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Taste buds and tam. Coconut water wasn't a coconut water tam. It was a hydration tam, right? Taste buds, maybe it's bad because I'm of Indian origin. I like coconut water, but look, let's be honest. I got an early, I got out at a $700 million valuation, right? So I got in at, I don't know, 30. So I made 20 times my money. The thing's now worth north of two billion. So I didn't have the vision that Mike has, who's a CEO founder, that this could be north of a $2 billion public company. No chance I had that vision. I was, because to me, the tam was limited by the taste of coconut water in America. So I, sometimes, knowing where to hold them, knowing where to fold them.

SPEAKER_00

So I got out, I made good money. I will never begrudge the money that I could have made. But I got it. So I was out on that one. But then, you know, but then I got into buy, and I rode buy all the way. And the founder, Ben, is super smart. And he, I got him introduced to KDP. And he built a brilliant relationship with the CEO of KDP, and then sold that for 1.7 billion. I think one of the great tests of marketing is,

SPEAKER_02

can you sell water?

SPEAKER_02

How do you sell water? Right? What's the, there's a marketing genius about figuring out how to sell water, and not just once, how to sell it many times in many different ways. And so, I've only done one water,

SPEAKER_00

by the way. I've done many beverages, but only one water. Okay. Well, so vitamin water, not a water. Yeah. Vitamin water is flavored, right? Poppy is flavored. Vitacoco, buy, they're all flavored. Like when you just straight water, I still don't know how the hell I did that, but I'll take a crack. The founder of Darius created Vitacomar Water with a really good story, which is vapor distilled water. It's how water is made in, in the world, right? Water evaporates from the ocean, goes up, hydrogen and oxygen separate, all the impurities fall out. It comes back to earth. That first drop of rainwater before it enters the atmosphere, before it hits the ground,

SPEAKER_00

that's pure water. So that was the initial vision behind smart one. The packaging was not great. It was invisible. So I redo the package. The current package was me and my team, which sits on shell today. Then we did the influencer strategy. And I felt that Evian was the only player in America that was in premium water, but it's a French company. It was in plastic being shipped across the ocean. It didn't make sense. And neither did Fiji being shipped from basically Fiji. Like why can't we have a premium American water that has, and the thing is your water is a badge. When you walk around with the water more than anything else, it's a little bit of a reflection of you,

SPEAKER_00

right? That's why at home, who cares? You buy the case packs at Costco and 24 packs for like $2. But when you're walking around, you want a little bit of a different badge. And I think with the team I had, Jennifer Aniston became the face of the brand, the new packaging we did. Smart became this like go-to accessory, particularly for women. And the brand took off. And I think when Coke bought vitamin water, if you ask them today, the brand that has worked out for them is Smart water, not vitamin. And is there something to this idea of placement?

SPEAKER_02

So like, I remember when Beats by Dre came out, and it was this headphone brand, just like many other bows and others. But instead of going for audiophiles, everywhere you saw it was basically hip hop artists and athletes walking into the stadium. And it became like synonymous with like the pregame lock-in associated with the coolest athletes and artists. And like, that was amazing. They created billions of dollars of value by that association, that placement of the pregame or the walk-in, at least for me. And I think that I've read stories about Grey Goose and some of the liquor brands where they would put it in the limousines or the after parties of the Oscars.

SPEAKER_02

And just where it was seen was almost just as important as the story of how it was triple filtered and distilled because nobody actually ends up knowing that shit. They just see where it's seen. Did you ever use that tactic or what is that? That was huge for me back in the day.

SPEAKER_00

So now this strategy is done really through social and digital, right? So digital influences, when all top sororities are running around posting poppy and having it at the sorority kickoff parties, I have an army of amazing college ambassadors and poppy is the number one drink on college campuses. So modern day like Red Bull playbook basically? Yeah, but it's kind of a better for you, feel good vibe. And definitely what's better for women than, you know, like from a connection standpoint. So, but back in the day, I did this with the Oscars, with the Golden Globes. Smart water was the first water on the table at the Golden Globes before they were pouring out of just the,

SPEAKER_00

and so I did a deal with them. So suddenly every table you go to, you're seeing a smart water there. And then vitamin, I used to sponsor, mainly because I wanted to go to the parties. So Patrick Whitesell, I've heard of Patrick, he's too big time now, but Patrick used to go to the coolest post Oscar parties, Oscar and VMA, Golden Globes parties in LA. So just for me to get access to those things, I would sponsor them. But the good news is, all the, I remember going to one, and it was back in what I call round one of JLo and Aflac dating. And I was at the party and like JLo and Aflac are there. And everyone's drinking vitamin water back then.

SPEAKER_00

This is like 2003, you know, 2004. So I think you're dead right. In the early days, especially with products, they've got to appear in people's lifestyle areas as both physically and digitally. You're a hustler.

SPEAKER_01

I didn't, I didn't realize how big of a hustler you are. If you lose your hustle,

SPEAKER_00

you lose your edge. Like the guy who Sean and I know, Gulrez, who is the CEO of Jim Conner Fine Foods. Like he's like, bro, you are bloody intense. Like when I get into sessions with him, he's like, I thought you would have chilled out. You're a father. You're successful. I'm like, bro, it's go time. Like we're building your empire. Let's, you know, there's no, you've got to have a hustle mode. And I think also founders respect that. So I want to ask you

SPEAKER_01

a little bit of a different question. I'm obsessed with brands that last a long time. I'm also a massive American history buff. And some of the best brands in America, you know, they've been around for over a century. Coke, Snickers, M&Ms, like brands that you've worked with. I think Mars is like a $50 billion a year business that's family owned. Hershey's is run, I think run by a family trust. I think they do something like 10 or 20 billion a year in revenue. And these brands, you know, everyone talks about getting healthy, but like Reese's probably isn't going to go away for the next 50 years. Coke, it's probably not going to go away for a hundred years.

SPEAKER_01

And also you've worked with startups. Is there anything that I or Sean or the listener can learn from these old big companies that have been around for a hundred plus years? Yeah,

SPEAKER_00

they do a very good job of two things. They're managing their installed base. So they have fantastic retail presence. And they do, in my opinion, when I, great marketing to maintain relevance for their brands. It's almost, I'm almost shocked how well they do it in a world where technically you shouldn't be eating or drinking any of those products. However, where they are smart and I give Pepsi credit for this, they do go out and buy the future as well. Like Pepsi bought Poppy, not because it's a apple cider vinegar beverage, because they're seeing the vision. This could be right up there. And they've said it to me, this is between like, Pepsi, Mountain Dew, Poppy,

SPEAKER_00

that should be their soda lineup and choose what you want. If you feel like having a Pepsi, great. And by the way, the growth is all coming, Sam, from their zero sugar products. So it's not coming from call Coke or call Pepsi. It's Pepsi zero. Yeah, correct. Pepsi zero is crushing it. Coke zero is crushing it. And so Poppy fits into that realm. So they see that. You still maintain your legacy, but you have to make sure you pick up the future. Otherwise, you will get left behind. And so I think you're seeing it, like Unilever bought your boy, Grunz, right? Like that they're buying the future. There's a lot of M&A. Hershey just bought Lesser Evo.

SPEAKER_00

Like that they are buying the future. And I think they, but they're getting a little savvier and a little wiser in how they do it. Before they would build, get brands that I don't think were built to last. And now to your point, Sam, I think they're trying to find brands that are built to last. And for me, if we look at all the exits we've been a part of, whether those brands continue growing 40% or just maintain a good scale, Vitamins, Smart, Poppy, Vital Proteins, Buy, Farmer's Dog, like all these are still once upon a farm, you know, we IPO'd that brand recently. They're all still there. And they will be here if managed right for the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years.

SPEAKER_00

Sean had a good question

SPEAKER_01

that he was telling me that he had for you, but I'm going to ask it. And he hasn't gotten to it yet. That's the kind of guy I am.

SPEAKER_02

He hasn't gotten to it.

SPEAKER_01

He's a gifter. He's a gifter.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah,

SPEAKER_01

I'm going to steal it from him. And it was basically, if a young guy were to go and shadow you, what would they be surprised about how you spend your time? Shadow you for like a day or a week, yeah. It's a great question, Sam.

SPEAKER_00

So a few things. I think what allows me, I think they will be a little surprised of how I can change lanes so rapidly. So part of my success and part of my failures are around my ADD. So I can go from five different company conversations with different founders to then figuring out the plumbing problem in my house to the new house that I'm trying to buy, but getting screwed on with the price. Like I can change lanes and gears very rapidly and be fully engaged. But by the end of it, I'm exhausted, right? My brain shut off and then I have to watch TV to unlock, to sort of calm it down. So one of the things they'll find is how I rapidly able to change lanes.

SPEAKER_00

The second thing is, even though I personally don't operate at a detailed level personally, they'll be surprised at how detailed I get with the brands and founders I partner with because I have great recall of information. And so they're surprised. Sometimes the founders think I've forgotten something from like a month ago when I asked him about it. You can ask Ulrez, he's a classic, but I'm like, three weeks ago, we spoke about this. Where are you on this? He's like, how did you remember that? He thought because I forgot to come back, he could ignore me. And so my ability to recall and retain info because you have to go deep with founders because if you go shallow,

SPEAKER_00

you're not helping them out. It's got to be meaningful stuff that helps impact their business. And the third thing is I'm blessed to be living a great lifestyle. I'm living the American dream, right? I'm an immigrant that came here and did well, but I also am able to do high-low, right? So from where I eat, I mean, I'm, you know, the taco stand or where I go, I go and do the grocery shopping. I'm not sending someone. I'm like, I'm there, I'm picking stuff up because I think if you don't live in reality, you then can't operate in reality. You kind of end up in this 1% world which doesn't help when you're dealing with products that deal with all Americans.

SPEAKER_02

I was talking to a buddy of ours who's a brilliant marketer and probably sold a billion dollars of products online and he, I opened up my laptop and he saw that I had Adblocker on and he's like, how could you?

SPEAKER_00

He's like,

SPEAKER_02

you're a marketer. He's like, you have to study your craft. Sit through every ad. He logged in and another guy logged into his Facebook and he's on Facebook. He's a woman. Like his profile is his but he told Facebook, I'm a woman because he's like, I want to see what they're marketing to a 40-year-old woman in America.

SPEAKER_00

That's the prime target.

SPEAKER_02

I need to see what's the messaging and I was like, there's levels to this game of intensity and detail. What do you stink at? Where's your weakness in business? I think sometimes

SPEAKER_00

I may have too much belief. You know when you love a product and you're like, you kind of have faith that blinds you a little bit to the, whether it's the founder you think is amazing or whether you love the product and you're not overly focused on the gross margins because, you know, I'm a big field of dreams, guys. Build it and they will come. But if you don't build it correctly, I feel the dream won't come. And sometimes when I love something a lot, I end up ignoring some of the red flags. So I think passion is a super important element, but passion at all costs can be dangerous. Let's leave it with this.

SPEAKER_02

While we're in the business of stealing questions, Patrick O'Shaughnessy has this great question he asked the guest at the end of every one of his Invest Like the Best episodes. And he asked the guest, he said, what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you in your career? And I'm just curious, what comes to mind when I say that? Like, what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you? Kindest thing anyone's done for me?

SPEAKER_00

I should just shout out to a guy. I was, it's probably two of them. I've been adopted a couple of times. One time was at Coca-Cola when I was about to leave because they gave me a brand called Box Root Beer. You know that? Like, remember I told you I have a few mantras. One of my mantras influences the influence so the other has become a part of pop culture. The third one is live the brand. Well, I can't live Box Root Beer. I don't understand it. I grew up in Zambia. I bloody hate root beer. So I was on Sprite. Someone demoted me. And I ran Box. And two guys, and I was about to leave and my career would have been toast because I was going to some travel.com bullshit site

SPEAKER_00

that ended up folding. And two guys, a guy called Todd Potman and a guy called Darrell Cobbin kind of heard that we're leaving, saved me, said, we'll give you something different. Don't leave. They put me on Powerade and that changed the trajectory of my career once. And then when I got to Vitamwater, I was doing great. I took over all the marketing, but the founder and I kind of had different visions on how to market. And I don't think he liked my approach, but I was what was bringing the heat to the brand. And I think he wanted to fire me at one point. And so Mike Rupoli, who was the president of the company, changed reporting structure and put me under him so that,

SPEAKER_00

because he and I got on great. He said, well, look, take ego aside. Either you want to report to the CEO and get fired or report to me and I got you because now you're my guy. And so I said, I want money, I don't want ego. So I reported to Mike and I still ran marketing, but had defiled, it could have fired me, right? I was an employee at will. That would have also changed the trajectory of my career. So this is only the second podcast

SPEAKER_01

that you've done. Is that right? Yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_02

Dude, thanks for coming on where should people go find you if they want to follow more, you know, get more of what you're doing? You know what?

SPEAKER_00

It's a really good question and it's a horrible answer. You actually can't go anywhere yet other than you guys and one of the podcasts. Wait, so you don't have social media?

SPEAKER_02

Subscribe to this podcast if you want to see him again. The last one that was like that was Brian Johnson. He came on and he was just hacking on his own body and his own privacy of his own home and then he came on this podcast and so, you know, maybe you'll have a Netflix documentary soon. Maybe I can reverse age by 20 years.

SPEAKER_00

My wife would love that.

SPEAKER_01

We were his first podcast and, you know, Sean, I don't know if I ever told you this. He called me last year and he goes, hey, I just wanted to thank you because you were the first podcast that I ever did and you guys asked me a lot of really hard questions that I never even thought about. And so, A, I'm thankful for you for doing that and B, when I saw the response, I was like, oh, I should do media and I should go hard. This works.

SPEAKER_00

It's crazy and look what he's done. You guys are the influence. Remember the one in 10? You are the one in 10, guys.

SPEAKER_02

My contrarian belief about Brian Johnson is that Brian Johnson is the greatest marketer alive right now. Possibly. I think he understands social media at a level that I don't know anybody else does. It's kind of remarkable. Jake Paul maybe, but yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, thanks, Ben.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks for coming on. You're awesome. Pleasure. Thanks for taking the time. All right, that's it. That's the pub.

SPEAKER_01

All right, that's it.