I am here with Anna today and we are going to talk about the new rules of brand marketing, which she actually wrote an amazing book about, which is a topic that concerns how you used to build brands, how people thought marketing worked, and how not only has it changed radically the last few years, but is now changing every few months and how do you even adapt with that. And then we're also going to dive a bit into luxury storytelling and premium storytelling and how do you even reach the premium consumer in this extremely noisy era. But just to kick things off, you have an amazing newsletter, Sociology of Business. You are an author, CMO. Give some quick background to people watching.
Well, you pretty much covered it. So that's what I right now work as brand advisor. Starbucks is one of my retained clients. Previously, Global Chief Brand Officer Esprit, Banana Republic also Global Chief Brand Officer, and two books, Business of Inspiration, and then Hitmakers, how brands influence culture, the sociology of business newsletter. And I think I'm the only person who was three times on this Forbes top CMO list. Oh, okay. Right place, right time. That's how— I think it's a little bit more than that.
But look, and so the, speaking of the books, you know, you talked in your book, it was Hitmakers, I believe, right? And you were speaking about how the brand marketing rules have changed and how there's just a completely different world that we grew up into where we are today. What do you think, if you could give that thesis to people who've never heard it before, I'd love to hear you explain it.
So I'm really glad that you asked that. And I know I follow you and I've been following you for years now, that you also talk a lot about that from many different angles, from strategy, from creative, from content, from creators perspective. The idea for the book actually started when I realized that brand marketing got back in favor because it was a long drought. The performance era, I guess. The long and dark age performance era when CMOs were like, just give me anything that's measurable.
And then all of a sudden, brand marketing started creeping back in. And for those who are not familiar, brand marketing is focusing on what is our brand about? What does our brand promise to our customers? What is our brand positioning? What does your brand stand for? What is our brand story? How do we tell our story? So in old school, brand marketing would be above the line, so-called, which is TV advertising, which is out of home, which is billboards. Back in the day, radio. Now we have podcasts, print and so on. So it was very top down. You kind of define the story or your brand identity, and then you have very defined channels, how you tell that story and that brand identity.
So then brand marketing came back and unfortunately, the same formats came back because when you had performance marketing, no innovation on brand marketing side was really happening. Maybe a little bit, oh, now we have websites. Maybe we have social media. How do we tell our story in social media and so on?
And what I realized was like, no, no, no, no, no. There is completely new operating system. And you talk about that a lot. And I would love to hear your take. And in TLDR, my take was like, no. The way you're telling stories is actually through a cultural program. What you need is, yes, it's great to have your brand story, but you need to define your role in culture. And what is your cultural promise? It's not your individual brand promise to your customer. It is like, what are you giving to culture? What is the dialogue to culture?
What, and I'd be curious, a few examples for people of what are brands that have moved culture like that, you know, whether in recent history or in the past that you feel have really done that well, just to give people some context.
Well, I think that on running, for example, has done, and I will say, I mean, we'll get to other brands, but for example, they said, oh, we're never going to compete with Nike. We are never going to compete with Adidas. But they realized, oh, Nike took their eye off runners. They stopped innovating for runners. They have so many other categories. They went into lifestyle. They went to golf, into swimming, whatnot, everything. And they're like, no, we're going to laser focus on long distance runners or runners. We're going to do innovation in that one area. And they really changed the culture of running for long distance running. And from that laser focus, they went on running fairs. They went on specialized running shops. Because moving culture doesn't mean moving pop culture, mass culture. It's finding that specific subculture and starting from there. That's the bottoms up.
And they really did that bottoms up. Now into, you know, I've made jokes about it being more like on walking, right? It's a lifestyle that has spanned, doesn't even, the running doesn't even matter anymore. It is such an everyday shoe. And I think they came from that into categories they didn't even expect.
Absolutely. But it did start from that specific subculture, running subculture. You can say that New Balance did the same thing back in the day when they were like, oh, we can't really compete on performance, but we can compete on cool factor, urban factor. And that's also, oh, we're going to go to a downtown cool subculture. So we are going to shoot, art direct, choose photographers and models that have nothing to do with running. They're all about downtown cool. And then our models are going to start wearing them. And then we are going to become a shoe for dads and for models.
And I think it's interesting that we're basically in this era now where every smart brand starts now with this niche positioning. They say, where is a big brand taking their eye off the ball? It's an amazing way to look at a positioning opportunity, right? Because there is so much, whether that's department stores, honestly, media is the same way as a creator. If you look at wide business media niche down to that specific items start, you are surprised where it can go.
But if you're a brand, if you're a larger brand and you're trying to figure out how do you respond to this? If you have all of these upstart companies that can almost be more specialized than you, what can you even do against that? How do you stay in control of the culture? Well, I mean, I'm going to go back to that, but I'm curious, which brands do you think have in recent years? Because as you noted, as we were preparing for this, as we were chatting, you said that what happened in six months, a year, three years is light speed.
Well, I think you see the brands that operate extremely fast. I've pointed to Skims and David as two who operate at speed. So now I'm going to talk about that first and the amount of releases that they do promotionally and the amount of things and culture they're working with are just so much faster than you could imagine. So David being an interesting one where they launched the ice cream, they had Gigi Hadid with it. They sent out their second round of their COD. They had opened up the boutique while they were dealing with controversy from lawsuits very publicly with creators. That was a lot of attention level that they've been able to engineer. I think it's interesting.
Yeah. I would say, okay, so what are they going to do to grow? Because it's easy when you're small to get from zero to one, but for one to 100, it becomes challenging. And this is not to say, you know how Blossier was the darling of DTC era? But that was when money was free. Yeah. When interest rates were zero and so on. And when Mark Zuckerberg was less evil. Yeah. And when they didn't win the... Sorry, Mark. Yeah.
I mean, the house always wins. You know, those algorithms change all the time and became incredibly expensive to do social advertising. And that was the primary customer acquisition tool at the end of the day. And that was never really and truly brand building at that time. Yeah. Although what Emily Weiss has built, it's still imitated to this day. I'm talking about that, that was a true disruption in the beauty industry. And then they couldn't expand, right? They went to fragrance, that did okay, and then it kind of stopped.
Well, that is what I'm going towards because when distribution comes to a certain point, you can acquire only so many customers through digital tools, and then they did have to go to physical distribution. And they did a lot of retail stores. And then the question becomes even with David, how are they going to grow? Do they need physical? Sorry, Mark. Yeah. House always wins. Those algorithms change all the time and became incredibly expensive to do social advertising. And that was the primary customer acquisition tool at the end of the day. And that was never really and truly brand building at that time.
Yeah. Although what Emily Weiss has built, it's still imitated to this day. Why I'm talking about that, that was a true disruption in the beauty industry. And then they couldn't expand, right? They went to fragrance, that did okay, and then it kind of stopped. Well, that is what I'm going towards because when distribution comes to a certain point, you can acquire only so many customers through digital tools, and then they did have to go to physical distribution. And they did a lot of retail stores.
And then the question becomes even with David, how are they going to grow? Do they need physical distribution? Because that is... What is that advantage? Oh, yes, there are innovative ways to move culture. And you can be... How do you turn cultural hit into a market hit? And where does that market hit take you then? How do you... Do you restructure the market? Or you just say, hey, I'm fine as much as I grew. Do I need to grow in a multi-billion dollar company? Or am I happy with a hundred million dollars as a company?
And I think what we're seeing now is how fast they go in the categories, right? It feels like David Barr launched yesterday. I'm sure it's two years ago now. But now we're already in ice cream. There's already a secondary brand. And I've been... Skims is another one of these as an example where they're in a large category. Their products are okay. But the speed of marketing was so fast. There's always a new editorial campaign almost every month. There's always a new face or a new model. There's always something coming from Kim adjacent there. And then there's the Nike release. And I don't necessarily like any of it, but I see the speed it's operating at. And you look at... Compare that to any of the incumbent brands they're competing against. I can't remember the last time I heard about an Athleta campaign or any of these... The brands just don't operate at that same speed of culture. And I'm curious if you think that could even happen. How does a brand change its format, its structure, how it works with agencies in these new rules of brand marketing?
Do you need to operate that speed? Because let's focus on that for a second. Because one thing is grabbing attention. Because if you want to grab attention, then you're always going to have bigger and faster and more extreme. Because the stakes are always going to be higher and higher and higher. And that's what we are seeing with those brand activations. Every summer, the stakes are higher. And I talked yesterday about Mango Outdoor Cinema Athens. It was absolutely beautiful. But if you look at those influencer dinners, now the table goes on like hundreds and hundreds of people. So someone hasn't seen that. What's the extent of that?
Well, it was okay. So Athens is on the sea. So it was a gigantic movie screen, like a projector. And you see the sun was going down. And then you see the horizon and the sea. On the other side, you see Acropolis and the sun, the orange colors, and the sun was going down and the beautifully set table that goes into infinity. Because exactly. Because at the end of the day, influencers are very rare or those that stand out like you do, because you're a creator, you're not just posting. And you have things to say. So that's where I'm going actually towards. It's not just reach and impressions, but in order to get what Mango at the end of the day paid for, they needed some return on investment. So they're like, we need to invite 300 influences multiplied by X amount of impressions. We are going to get ROI. And so that is the scale basically of that media buy, because at the end of the day, that is a media buy that is enormous. And then you have Prada dinners, and then you have Armani dinners, and then it becomes more and more beautiful. That query that Armani had dinner last year, I'm just bracing myself to see more breathtaking.
Yeah, well, because you look at it, the more breathtaking it is, the same thing as the influencer mailer, the more interesting it is, the more likely it is to get posted. Everything's about attendee percentage to post rate, and then how good the post does and how the quality of the imagery helps that. And so yes, the numbers game comes up. And I am interested, because it does seem saturated. It's complete saturation. And I'm in the weeds of it, right? We were, you know that it's for algorithm, it's not for humans.
And so you get it, so you engineer this attention, right? And so I've worked on this a bunch in this last year. Okay, let's get, you think you can do 100 creators, you can do 1000, you think you can do X amount dinners, you can do more, and it works and you watch it happening. But it definitely feels like it's purely a math game, it's going to lose efficacy. You can watch the real premium consumer almost shift away from it. And I have thought very little about what comes after that. And I think you're probably already there. So I'm curious what your thoughts are on post this attention. I mean, it was breathtaking. I was like, oh, why am I not there? I want to be there. Not like I want to be influenced, but I'm like, oh, I kind of want that experience. You know? I was like, oh, is this on a Greek island? And I'm like, oh, no, it's actually. And I was like, oh, there is a necropolis from the distance. And it's these beautiful human experiences, you know? And then you're like, oh, it's a mango activation. But the sun maybe killed the father. Do you know what that controversy is? Well, it doesn't matter. Mango is an amazing fashion brand. And we don't need to...
But also, they're not a premium brand, right? It's a mainstream brand. No, but they do have codes of premium marketing and not just advertising, marketing as well, because that sort of event is very high end. That's something that Prada would have done. I would love to hear your thoughts on that, because I think we see a lot more brands across any level from Mastige all the way down to Mass, using luxury codes, right? And so do you think that that's an effective playbook?
Absolutely. You know why? Because when people see, and there is a giant aesthetic synchronization, when you see on Instagram, something that Zara uses the same photographer, the same models, look, look at Hailey Bieber. She did Mango Capet, she did Alaya, she did Celora, she shot Miu Miu. And God bless, good for her, you know? And the end consumer is going to see, and they're going to see, oh my God, this is shot beautifully, this is styled beautiful, the lighting is impeccable. And when they see something like that, they're going to want to buy that. And they're going to be like, I got an amazing deal, because I got something that looks exactly the same like Saint Laurent.
I was going to say, I feel like that is way more impactful for Mango than it is for Miu Miu, right? So what do you do if you are positioned in a premium or a luxury way, you're watching this unfold, and you go, everyone's using our toolkit, basically, and they're able to sell these more affordable things, how do you still tell a premium story?
Well, that really comes down to creativity. That means that you need to be three steps ahead. And that means you need to really do what in finance you have like options, future options. Who is going to have that cultural capital next? Like Loewe did with Isla Johnstone. She is in John Dark, and they're like, we are going to put her in our campaign. These are options. We are betting that this woman is going to have cultural currency next year. So we are going to use not someone who is a massive celebrity now, who is at the peak of their cultural currency. You're going to bet in the future. It's like stock market. I think we've seen that because when Jonathan Anderson...
sell these more affordable things, how do you still tell a premium story?
Well, that really comes down to creativity. That means you need to be three steps ahead. And that means why are you using the same photographers? That means you need to do what in finance you have, almost options, future options. Who is going to have that cultural capital next? Like Loewe did with Isla Johnstone. She is in John Dark, and they're like, we are going to put her in our campaign. These are options. We are betting that this woman is going to have cultural currency next year. So we are going to use not someone who is a massive celebrity now, who is at the peak of their cultural currency. You're going to bet in the future. It's like stock market. I think we've seen that because when Jonathan Anderson started, he brought a whole new group of creatives over. Even LVMH, they have Chase Infinity early in a few of those. So I think that makes sense. You need to think about options. You need to make future bets and you need to see what do you believe is going to give you biggest returns in the future. Some bets are going to give the biggest returns. Some bets are not going to pay out, but that is. So you have the ability to bet on personalities and people to represent the brand. You have the ability to bet on creatives, creative vision, creative direction, but you need to have that risk. You really need to hedge your bets. And that is the problem. If you sell a runner or Prada and you don't do that, I feel Prada does take risks a lot. So Prada is a better example, but LVMH.
Sam Rao is a great example. Yeah. Celine is a good example.
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A lot of people that watch this are in mid-level marketing roles, and they're in social media roles, and they're advocating to their VPs, their C-level about, we need to be thinking about taking more risk. I mean, you've been in this position on all sides of it. How do you think you present that to a boss or to somebody to say, we need to move in this way?
Well, I'm probably not a great example because I'm the most risk-taking. And also, I'm the boss. So you get to live in your own. I do. I'm the person with the budget. So I always say yes. If you don't do things differently, if you don't try new things, it's just a matter of time when someone else is going to do what you have done and your competitive advantage evaporates like that. Or you can keep doing what you have been doing, but then it's the law of diminishing returns. You just need to be ready. So doing things differently, trying new things, it's basically survival. And I'm saying that from personal experience. Unless you stay on your toes all the time and always look what's next and always say, hey, we cannot do this campaign the way we did the last one. We cannot do the same product that we did the last time last season. We cannot repeat the same things. We need to put all these new things. If it's better to fail than to do the same thing that you did the last time.
Yeah. I think we see it now. We talked a bit before the start about merchandise, but all of these, I feel like brands are copying what they see other brands do. They're taking six months or so to do it. And it seems like it's almost played out or done before they can execute it. And I guess I'd be curious that from a product perspective or from a planning risk-taking perspective, do you feel that same way that things are happening so fast, it's almost hard to work off any existing model and almost has to be new ideas? Curious what you think about it.
It has to be. But first of all, then everything becomes a commodity and it becomes a price game. And whoever is the cheapest is going to win. That's why do you think that Zara went up market and Mango because Shein and Temu, no one can win on that speed, on that price. So Zara then said, okay, then we're going to introduce luxury image. We're going to introduce higher price points. We're going to improve our quality just enough to differentiate ourselves from Shein. We're going to start collaboration. So there is Marisa Berenson capsule. There is John Galliano archive, you know, revisions. There is the item. There are the capsules. They're doing things that you would expect from luxury brands. What do you think of the John Galliano archive as a campaign for them and as a move for him?
It just seems like a very interesting cultural choice. He's an incredibly talented designer. So whatever he does is going to be incredible. And I think that they, I think it's great all around for, and I think the customer is going to win in that scenario. I think everyone wins, especially customers. Yeah. I remember that. I mean, when I was younger, whenever H&M would do one of the designer collabs at that level, it was just mad, everyone was excited. And I feel like we haven't had that same excitement down market.
Yeah, we have. And it has become kind of part of the course, those collaborations. But when you see even in H&M, they recently dropped resort. What does H&M have to do with resort? Because resort collections are for VIPs, for ultra high net worth individuals, for influencers. They're not for regular customers. So there is that emulation of going up.
So for me, the question is, but where are luxury brands now going? You know, because they do need the new model now. And I do that idea of middle tier or masstige brands taking that same approach, right? I love the idea of an H&M resort collection, but I love it more just conceptually, because I feel like that's a thing that a lot of these brands should look at. Like, okay, we, maybe we're not elevating to the complete luxury standard. We're not in the yachts out there on the harbor, debuting our, all right. Speak for yourself. But if you look at the, how can we present, how can we take our top 5% customers? How can we give them a more premium experience? How can we make products for them? I was at a speaking at an event where they had the represent team there. And they were talking about their loyalty program and how much their most loyal customers who have been in there, and they have hundreds of thousands of customers, have spent with the brand over time. And their excitement to be able to get one of one pieces, or to be able to bid on things from their photo shoots. And it was really interesting to think about a newer age brand like that in men's in particular, about how we provide these one-on-one experiences or get them in the product design process that was really would seem way more rooted in luxury prior. But I guess for any prestige brand, especially one that now has to compete both for attention in a way that I feel you almost can't win. And they also have to compete in product.
experience? How can we make products for them? I was speaking at an event where they had the Represent team there. And they were talking about their loyalty program and how much their most loyal customers, who have been in there, and they have hundreds of thousands of customers, have spent with the brand over time. And their excitement to be able to get one-of-one pieces, or to be able to bid on things from their photo shoots. And it was really interesting to think about a newer age brand like that in men's in particular, about how we provide these one-on-one experiences or get them in the product design process that would seem way more rooted in luxury prior. But I guess for any prestige brand, especially one that now has to compete both for attention in a way that I feel like you almost can't win. And they also have to compete in product. Like, what can you do? How do you position now at all for the future?
Well, that is, I would love to hear your opinion because that was what we started talking about. Like, can you win on attention if you just, because that is the numbers game. Yeah. Truly the number of influencers you can afford, the number of impressions you can get, the number of money you can spend. You can do that if you can. Yeah.
If you cannot do that, what do you really compete on? Is it having that very consistent aesthetic world? Is it having that invite-only, secret, no-phones-allowed, if you know, you know experience? But then you need to really say, hey, there is not going to be any scale here, but there is going to be every door the value is going to be really high, or the experience is going to be really exceptional. How do you really provide, or how do you have a portfolio of those different niches that you provide those local, small, personal one-on-one experiences, and when you put that portfolio together, you get scale? So that's what I've been talking about for a really long time, even before COVID—how scale is aggregation of niches. And I do think that now it's even more pertinent because you cannot have meaning at that large scale. Because tomorrow, a brand is going to do the things like Mango did. They're going to put another screen and even more beautiful. They're going to do it in a long time. And there's going to be a coliseum in the, and it's going to be even more beautiful and so on. Maybe they take people on the moon or something.
Yeah. So the question is, how would be, just me and the Blue Origin rocket? Yes. There's going to be a plate, and it's going to be, I'm sorry that the guys can't see them. Yeah. There's a, for those that know, there's a troll picture of me behind on the other. It looks really good. I think that definitely needs to be part of this video. Yeah. So this is the limits of AI or not the limits, just the designers have gotten very good with AI.
Yes. So in a sense that is the question: how do you really stratify your customers? There is no mass market. We already said there is no mass culture. There is no popular culture, but there are a lot of niche cultures and you need to really say, what are we doing for those different ones? But that's a completely different approach that you have. And you need to say, hey, what cultural products am I creating for all those different customer groups? For some, it's archival. For others it's merchandise. For others are collaboration. That's a pain in the butt. Everything. Yeah. I mean, to have that sort of marketing, that is really the future of brand marketing.
Yeah. Expand more on that.
Well, that is: how do you have a cultural program and say, hey, cultural program in the situation when you don't have a mass culture, you can't have mass tools anymore and mass channels. You have all the portfolio of products that are going to be niche. So how do I work with Orin, for example, or say that I work at a fashion brand and I partner with you for next two years, and I say, hey, you're great with menswear. What are we going to do for next two years? How many people can you reach? But I don't care about your reach. I actually care what relationship are you going to build with that audience? And how, what is the meaning of that relationship? What kind of relationship is going to be triangulating between the brand, the brand officer, you and that audience? And what is the story that we're going to tell through that? Because it's not even about your reach. It's about the depth of that loyalty program, the membership, what kind of community are you going to create for that? So that would be the program.
You brought up a point I think is very pertinent: it's hard. There are so many things you have to do to have a cultural program. Now it's not, oh, American Eagle may have been able to win with Sydney Sweeney, if you can call it a win, but there's very few monoculture moments like that left, right? Where they're able to influence it that much. And so to actually make it work, it requires so much. So every subculture, every niche, every program, every city, localities. And what I've found speaking with brands and walking through some of this being like, hey, you should think about every key region, every key subculture, influencers in these different types is they go, that's a lot of work. It's so much more one-on-one management that you would be able to put that same work in at a bigger reach before. And a lot, it's just a change in how much they have to spend time and energy on that they just don't seem willing to do.
It's not. And also the other thing, even with American Eagle and Sydney Sweeney. Yeah. Was it good or not? Yeah. But that was last summer. Yeah. It's gone. They now need to spend again that money. Yes. They did see uplift in sales.
Yes. But now they need to repeat that. Whereas if I were to collaborate with you as a brand, that is an accumulating effect. That's a compounding effect because your community that you have built, they're not going anywhere. They're there. And if they see that you like the brand that, let's say, Banana Republic, that you wear there, that you're organizing XYZ, that you're there, that's not going to go away. That is the difference. That is ongoing. And that's the difference between cultural program and one-time spike of a test.
And I do think one thing that I think a lot of brands should bear in mind about creators in particular, and working in that world, is that it's almost like having an athletic team in that you have all these individual people, but they can also collaborate. And when they make collaborative content, it always does better than when they do. People are surprised by it, the algorithms reward it. You can basically build this interlocking network of people that perform online, but then they're also doing all these things. Like one of the plus sides of, you know, we have this big house here at Cannes, we're doing this, we have YouTube, I have collaborations with Clayton, like the series that we've talked before. And you have all these different parts of the web, and you can basically expand with creators as they go on. And I think there's a lot of brands who should think more deeply about that and think wider, but then also how do they connect the dots between those people? How do they make interesting items together? How are they hosting the dinners? And I do think that that web of personalities where it's almost like a TV network, for lack of a better term, and it's got the real life component, and there's some overlay into product is complicated to execute, but you can get years of resonance.
That's what I agree with. Yes. But also just even if you think about just managing you and say, hey, let's say Orin is going to make a micro series about, say, Banana Republic men's and it's going to be about XYZ and he goes here, here, here. So that's going to be a series. And there is going to be a season two and season three. And then on top of that, he's going to organize XYZ times quarterly dinners in New York, in key markets, in London, in San Francisco, and so on. And then on top of that, there is going to be an interview series. And you know what I mean? There are different layers of content, but that's an ongoing relationship. So that's ambassadorship. That's also community building. And that's also interactive. And now most brands just pay you
Get years of resonance. That's what I agree with. Yes. But also, even if you think about managing—you and say, hey, let's say Orin is going to make a micro series about Banana Republic men's and it's going to be about XYZ and he goes here, here, here. So that's going to be a series. And there is going to be a season two and season three. And then on top of that, he's going to organize XYZ times quarterly dinners in New York, in key markets, in London, in San Francisco, and so on. And then on top of that, there is going to be an interview series. And there are different layers of content, but that's an ongoing relationship. So that's ambassadorship. That's also community building. And that's also interactive. And now most brands just pay you for one, one and done. And that's the same thing as paying Sweeney, but cheaper.
Yeah, exactly. And I think there are people that are looking at it more like we described, and I think that's the model that has to shift to maintain that resonance. I'm curious, as things change so fast and as we have to move week to week, month to month without looking at the same amount of ideas, how do you keep your finger on the pulse? How do you get excited by things? And I'm curious, in particular, because I know you see a vast amount of brands and you're working in the middle of all these. How do you actually think about what to pay attention to, what to separate from the noise?
I say, I don't have a lot of talents, but I do have a talent to know. I have taste. And I know what's going on in zeitgeist to say that that's relevant. This is going to go away. Everyone's freaking out about 2016. I was like, don't worry about it. That's just not going to last. You need to know what's relevant and what's not relevant, what's going to last, what's not going to last, what people are going to pay attention to. And that's a sixth sense. And I can't explain that. Okay. I know in the comments, people will be like, how do I build that? It's just something you can't.
Well, you need to—as I said, it's a test. I do have a PhD in sociology and I did do my due diligence. I think the sociology—that's funny. That was also my major in college. And I do think that's actually a really important lens for people to look at. Because then you begin to think of things in terms of groups of consumption and the why of people buying and the impact they have on each other. I do think there's a lot people can learn just from looking at that as a science.
Absolutely. But that is for me, better because I can structure and explain it. Because the whole point of sociology of business—that's the whole idea behind my newsletter. When you are a practitioner, when you really have to move fast and you need to think on your feet, the whole point of sociology of business is to say, "Let me reverse engineer what we've done. Let me be useful. Let me explain to other practitioners what we have done." And that's where my academic training comes useful. But this instinct of knowing what is happening in culture, what to seize on—I don't think you can train yourself to do that. But at the end of the day, it's just a talent. I think I'm in the right time now where the things that I'm interested in or I consume happen to align with things that are in the zeitgeist or moving a certain way. And I know when I was younger, that wasn't the case. I'm sure in ten years, it may not be as relevant. But it's interesting because I think I'm the exact consumer people are looking for. And that's been an interesting place to reflect from. People want this more, consuming certain goods because of what they say in the brand and the community side of it, interpreting prestige, engaging in new media. It's the ideal customer archetype. And it's rare to actually be inside of that. But I think at least now I'm able to look at that myself. I never wanted to be. I think that's amazing that you are. And I hope that you stay there as long as you can. There's only some amount of time.
But I hope that you evolve into and find a different angle. Because for me, I always want to do evergreen things. And that's why people even today read my book from six years ago and find it useful. And even when I look back at some stuff that I wrote—like "Why Taste Communities as the Future of Marketing"—that's from 2018, which is eight years ago. I want evergreen things that are relevant for creative, for strategy, for marketing, for brand strategy, for branding. You need to know how to think. And then if you know how to think, you can apply those frameworks to no matter what is happening.
We do have a framework when we make content. Myself and my team look at everything through, which I think is really interesting. It's so simple, but it actually really works. Do you like it or not? Do we feel good about it or not? And then is it coming or is it going? And those are actually harder questions to answer than you think. Thousand percent.
But then if you have that four square—like, we don't like it and we think it's going away, or we don't like it and we think it's growing—with that, then you'd be able to establish an opinion and have a conversation about it or where you think it's going. So I do think there's value to having those things for yourself. If I want to form an opinion quickly, can I use a framework? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So where are luxury consumers going next?
That's the hardest question. When we look at the people I know that are spending a lot of money—they are doing it in tandem with experiences more than ever. And I look at this even in the clothing items that I still work on. It's festival based. People are still making that big expenditure around Coachella, Stagecoach, et cetera. They're still doing those purchases going into Euro summer. They're getting the outfit for Canada. They're doing all these. Basically, everything is in tandem to an event. And I think that's a very interesting consumption shift versus I need new things for fall or I just buy on the whim. It's like, how am I putting together my plan? And more and more that relates to their content plan or their girlfriend's content plan, or like, this is going to be on video or this is going to be. And there's a very interesting new consumer angle that's so tied to these ongoing experiences that they consume around and less evergreen. That thing is really interesting. And I don't think brands have quite played into it yet. I'm curious what you think about that.
I don't know, because I think that true ultra high net worth. And that's not—that's one level below that. I don't know that customer that well. They're nowhere to be seen. They don't want to be seen. They forget about the phones. They have their assistants. We don't know where they are. They don't touch anything. They're more illusory than average. I have one thesis on that customer. The still best way to reach that consumer is in the hobby. I'm extremely into boating. I'm extremely into horseback riding. I'm into these exact experiences. And those places where you can still show up authentically if you know the culture. But that's one of the last places.
That's one level below that. Right. Yeah. I don't know that customer, that true ultra high net worth customer. I don't know as well. They're nowhere to be seen. They don't want to be seen. They're like, forget about the phones. They have their assistants. We don't know where they are. They don't touch anything. They're more illusory than average. I have one thesis on that customer. The best way to reach that consumer is in the hobby. I'm extremely into boating. I'm extremely into horseback riding. I'm into these exact experiences and those places where you can still show up authentically if you know the culture. That's one of the last places to actually get excitement. Formula One or soccer. But you're not going to hang out with them. You're not going to see them because it's more and more removed because they're going to have their own thing. Even when they watch World Cup, they're going to have their own place. But the companies that are selling them, they're still going and buying boats. They're still going to the Monaco boat show to look at that. There are some places where you can still activate in an interesting way. I had a conversation. I'm going to Monaco after this for a client item that's about luxury personal brand. That's been interesting too. You're seeing some of these people now who have never had to think about having an online presence who are finally like, okay, well now this actually matters for our business. We want to approach it from a luxury angle. That's a very interesting conversation. I think that's very important. I think people as luxury goods. I don't think we've seen that at all. I always position sociology of business as a luxury good. It's incredibly expensive. It's one of the most expensive. I've actually brought that up as an example probably ten times in conversation. You can have a premium Substack and it's all about the price and what is featured inside of it. You are the exact example of that. Thank you. But it's really, I believe in the value you get there. I'm very generous in what I give. I'm not a community builder. My model is broadcasting. So don't come to me with questions. It's all in there because that's on purpose. I give a lot. It costs a lot, but I give a lot.
Well, and now I feel like over time, the archive is what's worth— Unbelievable. Yeah. And now I'm going to add white papers and presentations with all those models and so on. But there is a lot there. There is an article that's now more. I mean, I started writing in 2008, basically. That was even before I graduated, even before I got a PhD. So there is a lot there. It is expensive, but that's what you get as a return on investment. How many thousand times more, you know?
I do think smart personal brands and smart media do the same thing that brands do. They take luxury codes and use them. I have a mass personal brand, not a luxury personal brand, but I take a lot of those same trappings from it in terms of how you reach people or how you present or how you position or what you talk about and where. I think there is a lot even deeper in that. If you do want to have a personal brand, treating it like you need to invest in marketing, you need to invest in operations, all these things that people haven't thought about before. There's a massive economy around that just by nature of how many of Gen Z are creators, how many people now have that as part of the business. I think there's a whole world that's kind of unexplored on how marketers work through that, how brands work through that, and what that means for how we communicate in the future. Yes. And then how would you say that Instagram is different from TikTok in that sense?
Oh, extremely. The candid content on Instagram, you can have a myriad of content, high end to low end, high production, whatever it is. You can begin to build real affinity with people. Whereas on TikTok, it has to be that relationship almost from moment one, right? I have 300,000 followers on TikTok. I don't have that one-on-one relationship with them. All my content is value driven. They don't know me at all. They don't have that personalization. So if the content has enough value, it will perform and anything else won't work. But if I was to start from scratch and it was really about my story along with it, I would have significantly more resonance. I think that's how you have to approach that network now, whether it's a brand or as a creator. It really has to be a narrative you build with the fans at the same time. On Instagram, you don't need to do that. It's more about the subject matter. On TikTok, it's more about your community and your fandom. The algorithms work slightly differently and the affinity works a lot differently. On Instagram, you get more access to the people that follow you more often. As long as you keep giving them things they enjoy, they'll go with it. Value still reigns king. Whereas on TikTok, it is really about your community and your fandom to get consistency, or else it's always going to be a shot in the dark. A lot of creators are seeing the same thing now. You'll see more people than ever. It's five thousand views, ten thousand views, five thousand views, ten thousand views, eighty, one hundred. Then back to five to ten. It's way less consistent. On Instagram, you're consistently raising your bar. I think that's a challenge. But I also think that all of these networks work really well in tandem, right? If you have the ability to create widely around them as a brand or a creator, you are able to. Instagram, I think should be most people's primary. You do still want to work on LinkedIn because that's where real businesses reach out to you. CEOs aren't DMing you from their account with their kids photos, but they will on LinkedIn if they see you, even if that video has almost ten likes, because they saw you on Instagram. YouTube has no better long affinity where people actually get to learn more and actually put action into the universe versus you can't get that in a two minute video. You get an introduction to a concept, but you can change someone's career arc on YouTube or their life. I think that is really important, but you can only do so much content there. It's gated by how much you can release. Whereas TikTok is for a native type of extroverted person who can really build a fan base alongside them. It's excellent for them and hard for everybody else.
Interesting. And are you afraid of copycats?
I have a lot of copycats, but I'm not really afraid of it. What I've noticed is that it's natural. It's going to happen. They can get views, but not resonance. You have to evolve. My content looks nothing like it did nine months ago. It's changed production value. We changed the topics. We changed the way we hook. We changed the way we talk. They're still copying the things from that last wave. That evolution is really necessary because people get bored in how they consume and algorithms change. As a creator, I think your job is to continually evolve your toolkit. We've worked now a lot to be uncopyable in terms of the scripting or the way we joke or the relevancy or the approach. Because people were just putting all those transcripts in the cloud and spitting content back out. That sounds exactly like me. You're like, how do you compete with that? By things that are intangible by referencing jokes on screen, referencing cultural things people wouldn't do, being a little risqué. I think
evolve. My content looks nothing like it did nine months ago. It's changed production value. We changed the topics. We changed the way we hook. They changed the way we've talked. And so they're still copying the things from that last wave. And that evolution is really necessary because people get bored in how they consume, algorithms change. And as a creator, I think your job is to continually evolve your toolkit. And we've worked now a lot to be uncopyable in terms of the scripting or the way we joke or the relevancy or the approach, because people were just putting all those transcripts in the cloud and spitting content back out. That sounds exactly like me. And you're like, how do you compete with that? By things that are intangible. By referencing jokes on screen, referencing cultural things people wouldn't do, being a little risque. I think those are all signs of human life.
So that is the same thing that brands have to do. Because at the same time, do you want to be mango with the giant screen and view of Acropolis or are you going to go premium? Are you going to go VIP? Are you going to go to some collection of niches? You said you need to be more risque, you need to be human. Personality is the biggest competitive differentiator always. I always say, they can steal my playbook, but they can't steal my play. Because I'm always going to riff a little bit on myself. That's inimitable in a way, but that's a lesson for brands as well. That risk taking is not being faster, but being smarter.
If I were to leave people with two things coming out of this, it's that risk. Just keep changing, but not being faster, just being smarter and just being more aware of what you're doing. You probably can't compete on speed. Someone's going to be able to do more than you. They're going to be able to get the longer influencer table. They're going to be able to do a lot of that, but you taking the steps that they won't, or not repeating those same things, is at least giving you an opportunity to be ahead of the curve. And then also that personality, because I agree that even for brands, the more people you have on camera, it doesn't have to be the founder. It can be representatives, people, ambassadors, team members. Your story is told by your world. And that's your consumers, that's your employees, that's the people you choose to have represent you. And it's extremely effective. And it comes down to, do people gravitate to their personalities? It's one of the last honest things we have.
Yeah. So I have an accent and I have a PhD, so it's going to take a minute to acquire either of those. That's true. Look, I appreciate you coming and talking through this and I hope everyone has value. Please go check out Ana's books. We'll link them here below and follow the sociology of business. And thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This is amazing. Thank you. and higher and higher and higher. And that's what we are seeing with those brand activations. Every summer, the stakes are higher and higher. And I talked yesterday about Mango Outdoor Cinema Athens. It was absolutely beautiful. But if you look at those influencer dinners, now the table goes on like
hundreds and hundreds of people. Yeah, it's a pit of it. So someone hasn't seen that. What's the extent of that? Well, it was okay. So Athens is on the sea. So it's like it was a gigantic movie screen, like a projector. And you see, you kind of like the sun was going down. And then you see like the horizon and the sea. On the other side, you see Acropolis and, you know, the sun, the orange colors, and the sun was going down and the beautifully set table that goes into infinity. Because, you know, exactly. Because at the end of the day, like influencers are very rare or those that stand
out like you do, because, you know, you're a creator, you're not just like posting. And you have things to say. So that's where I'm going actually towards. It's not just marriage and impressions, but in order to get what Mango at the end of the day paid for, they needed some return on investment. So they're like, we need to invite 300 influences multiple by X amount of impressions. We are going to get ROI, you know? And so that is the scale basically of that media buy, because at the end of the day, that is again, a media buy is enormous. And then you have Prada dinners, and then you have
Armani dinners, and then it becomes more and more beautiful, more and more, you know, that query that Armani had dinner last year. It's kind of, I'm just like bracing myself to see more breathtaking. Yeah, well, because you look at it, the more breathtaking it is, the same thing as the influencer mailer, the more interesting it is, the more likely it is to get posted. Everything's about attendee percentage to post rate, and then how good the post does and how the quality of the imagery helps that. And so yeah, the numbers game comes up. And I am interested, because it does seem
saturated, like it's complete saturation of that. And I'm in the weeds of it, right? I'm, we were, you then know that it's for algorithm really, it's not for humans. And so you get it, so you, but you engineer this attention, right? And so I've worked on this a bunch in this last year, but okay, let's get, you think you can do 100 creators, you can do 1000, you think you can do X amount dinners, you can do more, and it works and you watch it happening. But it definitely feels like, okay, it's purely a math game, it's going to lose efficacy, you can watch the real premium consumer almost shift away from it. And I have thought very little
about like what comes after that. And I think you're probably already there. So I'm curious what your thoughts are on post this attention. I mean, it was breathtaking. I was like, oh, why am I not there? I want to be there. Not like I want to be influenced, but I'm like, oh, I kind of want that experience. You know, it's kind of, I was like, oh, is this on a Greek island? And I'm like, oh, no, it's actually, you know, and I was like, oh, there is a necropolis from the distance. And it's like, these are like beautiful human experiences, you know? And then you're like, oh, it's a mango
activation. Oh, but the sun maybe killed the father. Oh, you know what I mean? Do you know what that controversy? You know, well, it doesn't matter. Mango is an amazing fashion brand. And like, we don't need to... But also, and they're, but they're not a premium brand, right? It's a mainstream brand. No, but they do have codes of premium marketing and not just advertising, marketing as well, because that sort of event is very high end. That's something that Prada would have done. I would love to hear your thoughts on that, because I think we see a lot more brands across any level from Mastige all the way down to Mass, doing, using luxury codes, right?
And so do you think that that's a effective playbook? And I mean... Absolutely. You know why? Because when people see, and there is a giant aesthetic synchronization, when you see on Instagram, something that Zara uses the same photographer, the same models, look, look at Hailey Bieber. She did Mango Capet, she did Alaya, she did Celora, she shot Miu Miu. And like, God bless, good for her, you know? And end consumer is going to see, and they're going to see, like, oh my God, this is shot beautifully, this is styled beautiful, the lighting is impeccable. And when they see something like that, they're going to want to buy that. And they're going to be like,
I got an amazing deal, because I got something that looks exactly the same like Saint Laurent. I was going to say, I feel like that is way more impactful for Mango than it is for Miu Miu, right? So what do you do if you are a, if you're positioned in a premium or a luxury way, you're watching this unfold, and you go, everyone's using our toolkit, basically, and they're able to sell these more affordable things, how do you still tell a premium story? Well, that really comes down to creativity. That means that you need to be three steps ahead. And that means like, why are you then using the same photographers? That means you need to really
do like what in finance, you have like almost options, future options. Who is going to have that cultural capital next? Like Loewe did with Isla Johnstone. She is in John Dark, and they're like, we are going to put her in our campaign. These are options. We are betting that this woman is going to have cultural currency in next year. So we are going to use not someone who is a massive celebrity now, who is at the peak of their cultural currency. You're going to bet in the future. It's like stock market. I think we've seen that because like when Jonathan Anderson started, he brought a whole new group of, you know, creatives over. Even LVMH, they have like
Chase Infinity early in a few of those. So I think that makes sense. That is. You need to think about options. You need to make future bets and you need to see what is, what do you believe is going to give you biggest returns in the future. Some bets are going to like give the biggest returns. Some bets are not going to pay out, but that is. And so that's interesting. So you have the ability to bet on personalities and people to represent the brand. You have the ability to get on creatives. Creative vision, creative direction, but you need to have that like risk. You really need to hedge
your bets. You need, and that is the problem. If you sell a runner or Prada or, and you don't do that, I feel Prada does take risks a lot. So Prada is a better example, but LVMH. Sam Rao is a great example. Yeah. Celine is a good example. Yeah. If they don't, then you're going to see like the copy and copy of copy and copy is right there. When the consumer knows, the consumer is now aware of what things cost and the quality benefit and the analysis. Everyone always asks what social network should they consider when building their business? If you have someone that can talk on camera and your team isn't already super savvy at
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framework. It closely mirrors what I talk about with content funnels and shows you how to map your expertise onto formats for wider appeal. You can get the free YouTube growth playbook at the link in the description. And thanks so much to HubSpot for sponsoring this video. A lot of people that watch this are in the mid-level marketing roles, and they're in social media roles, and they're advocating to their VPs, their C-level about, we need to be thinking about taking more risk. I mean, you've been in this position on all sides of it. How do you think you present that to a
boss or to somebody to say, we need to move in this way? Well, I'm probably not a great example because I'm like the most risk-taking. And also, I'm the boss. So you get to live in your own. I do. I'm the person with the budget. So I always say yes. If you don't do things differently, if you don't try new things, it's just a matter of time when someone else is going to do what you have done and your competitive advantage evaporates like that. Or you can keep doing what you have been doing, but then it's the law of diminishing returns. You just need to be ready. So, I mean, ready to have diminishing
returns. So basically doing things differently, trying new things, it's basically survival. And I'm saying that from personal experience, unless you stay on your toes all the time and always look what's next and always say, hey, we cannot do this campaign the way we did the last one. We cannot do the same product that we did the last time last season. We cannot repeat the same things. We need to put all these new things. If it's better to fail than to do the same thing that you did the last time. Yeah. I think we see it now. We talked a bit before the start about merchandise, but all of these,
I feel like brands are copying what they see other brands do. They're taking six months or so to do it. And it seems like it's almost played out or done before they can execute it. And I guess I'd be curious that from a product perspective or from a planning risk-taking perspective, do you feel that same way that things are happening so fast, it's almost hard to, like, you can't really work off any existing model and almost has to be new ideas? Curious what you think about it. It has to be, but first of all, then it becomes, everything becomes a commodity and it becomes a
prize game. And whoever is the cheapest is going to win. That's why, why do you think that Zara went up market and Mango because Xi'an and Timu, no one can win on that speed, on that price. So Zara then said, okay, then we're going to introduce luxury image. We're going to introduce higher price points. We're going to improve our quality just enough to differentiate ourselves from Xi'an. We're going to start collaboration. So there is Marisa Berenson capsule. There is John Galliano archive, you know, revisions. There is the item. There are the capsules, you know. They're doing things that you would expect from
luxury brands. What do you think of the John Galliano archive as a campaign for them and as a move for him? It just seems like a very interesting cultural choice. He's an incredibly talented designer. So whatever he does is going to be incredible. And I think that they, I think it's great all around for, and I think the customer is going to win in that scenario. I think everyone wins, especially customers. Yeah. I remember that. I mean, when I was younger, whenever H&M would do one of the designer collabs at that level, it was just a mad, everyone was excited. And I feel like we haven't had that same excitement
down market. Yeah, we have. And like, and it has become kind of like part of the course, those collaborations. But when you see even in H&M, they recently dropped resort. What does H&M have, has to do with resort? Because resort collections are for VIPs, for ultra hard network individuals, for influencers. They're not for regular customers. So there is that emulation of going up. So for me, the question is, but where are luxury brands now going? You know, because they do need the new model now. And I do like that idea of middle tier or masthige brands taking that same approach, right? I love the idea of an H&M resort collection, but I love it more just conceptually,
because I feel like that's a thing that a lot of these brands should look at. Like, okay, we, maybe we're not elevating to the complete luxury standard. We're not in the yachts out there on the harbor, like, debuting our, all right. Speak for yourself. But if you look at the, how can we present, how can we take our top 5% customers? How can we give them a more premium experience? How can we make products for them? I was, I was at a, I was speaking at an event where they had the represent team there. And they were talking about their loyalty program and how much their most loyal customers who have been in there, and they have hundreds of thousands of customers,
have spent with the brand over time. And their excitement to be able to get one of one pieces, or to be able to bid on things from their photo shoots. And it was really interesting to think about a newer age brand like that in men's in particular, about how we provide these one-on-one experiences or get them in the product design process that was really would seem way more rooted in luxury prior. But I guess for any prestige brand, especially one that now has to compete both for attention in a way that I feel like you almost can't win. And they also have to compete in product. Like, what can you do? How do you position now at all for the future?
Well, that is, I mean, I would love to hear your opinion because that was what we started talking about. Like, can you win on attention if you just like, because that is, that is the numbers game. Yeah. Truly the number of influencers you can afford, the number of impressions you can get, the number of money you can spend. You can do that if you can. Yeah. If you cannot do that, what do you really compete on? Is it, is it having that like very consistent aesthetic world? Is that having that invite only secret, no phones allowed? Like if you know, you know experience, but then you need to really say, Hey, there is, there isn't going to be any scale here,
but there is going to every door, the value is going to be really high, or the experience is going to be really exceptional. How do you really provide, or how do you have then a portfolio or those different niches that you provide those local, small, personal one-on-one experiences. And when you put that portfolio together, you get scale. So that's, I've been talking about it for a really long time, even before COVID, you know, how the scale is aggregation of, of, of niches. And I do think that now it's even more pertinent because you cannot have meaning at that large scale because that
tomorrow, a brand is going to do the things like that mango did. They're going to put another screen and even more beautiful. They're going to do it in a long time. And there's going to be a coliseum in the, you know, and it's going to be even more beautiful and so on, you know, maybe they take people on the moon or something, you know? Yeah. So the question is, how would, how would, be like, just me and the blue, blue origin rocket? Yes. There's going to be like that, like plate, like, and it's going to be like, I'm sorry that the guys can't see them. Yeah. There's a, for those
that know there's a troll picture of me behind on the other, it looks, it looks really good. I think that definitely needs to be part of this video. Yeah. So this, this is the limits of AI or not the limits, just the, yeah, the designers have gotten very good with AI. Yes. So, so in a sense that that is the question, how do you really stratify your customers? There is no mass market. We already said there is no mass culture. There is no popular culture, but there are a lot of niche cultures and you need to really say, oh, what are we doing for those different, but that's a completely different
approach that you have. And you need to say, hey, what cultural products am I creating for all those different customer groups? For some, it's archivary issue. For others is merge. For others are collaboration. I mean, but that's a pain in the butt. Everything. Yeah. I mean, to have that sort of marketing, that is really the future of brand marketing. Yeah. Expand more on that. Well, that is how do you have a cultural program and say, hey, cultural program in, in the situation when you don't have a mass culture, you can't have mass tools anymore and mass channels. You have all the
portfolio of products that are going to be niche. So how do I work with Orin, for example, or say that, you know, I work at a fashion brand and I partner with you for next two years. And I say, hey, you're, you know, you're great with menswear. What are we going to do for next two years? How many people can you reach? But I don't care about your reach. I actually care what relationship are you going to build with that audience? And how, what is the meaning of that relationship? What kind of relationship is going to be triangulating between the brand, the Tantri brand officer, you and that audience. And
what is the story that we're going to tell through that? Because it's not even about your reach. It's about the depth of that loyalty program, the membership, what kind of community are you going to create for that? So that would be sort of the program. You brought up a point, I think is very pertinent of it's hard. There is so many things you have to do to have a cultural program. Now it's not, oh, American Eagle may have been able to win with Sydney Sweeney, if you can call it a win, but there's very few monoculture moments like that left, right? Where they're able to influence
it that much. And so to actually make it work, it requires so much. So every subculture, every niche, every program, every city, localities. And what I've found speaking with brands and walking through some of this being like, hey, you should think about every key region, every key subculture, influencers in these different types is they go, that's a lot of work. It's so much more one-on-one management that you would be able to put that same work in at a bigger reach before. And a lot, it's just, that's just a change in how much they have to spend time and energy on that they just don't
seem willing to do. It's not. And also the other thing, even with American Eagle and Sydney Sweeney, Yeah. Was it good or not? Yeah. But that was last summer. Yeah. It's gone. They now need to spend again that money. Yes, they did see uplift in sales, Yes. But now they need to repeat that. Whereas if I were to collaborate with you as a brand, that is a accumulating effect. That's a compounding effect because your community that you have built, they're not going anywhere, they're there. And if they see that you like the brand that, let's say, Banana Republic, that you wear there, that you're organizing XYZ, that you're there, that's not going
to go away. That is the difference that is ongoing. And that's the difference between cultural program and one time spike of a test. And I do think one thing that I think a lot of brands should bear in mind about creators in particular, and working in that world, is that it's almost like having an, like a basketball team or an athletic team in that you have all these individual people, but they can also collaborate. And when they make collaborative content, it always does better than when they do, people are surprised by it, the algorithms reward it. You can basically build this
interlocking network of people that perform online, but then they're also doing all these things. Like one of the plus sides of, you know, we have this big house here at Cannes, we're doing this, we're doing, we have YouTube, I have collaborations with Clayton, like the series that we've talked before. And you have all these different parts of the web, and you can basically expand with creators as they go on. And I think there's a lot of brands who should think more deeper about that and think wider, but then also how do they connect the dots between those people? How do they make
interesting items together? How are they hosting the dinners? And I do think that that web of personalities where it's almost like a TV network, for lack of a better term, and it's got the real life component, and there's some overlay into product is complicated to execute, but you can get years of resonance. That's what I agree. Yes. But also just even if you think about like just managing you and say, hey, let's say Orin is going to make a micro series about say Banana Republic men's and it's going to be like about XYZ and he goes here, here, here. So that's going to be a series.
And there is going to be a season two and season three. And then on the top of that, he's going to organize XYZ times, quarterly dinners in New York, in key markets, in London, in San Francisco, and so on. And then on the top of that, there is going to be interview series. And that, you know what I mean? There are different layers of content, but that's an ongoing relationship. So that's ambassadorship. That's also community building. And that's also interactive. And now most brands just pay you for one, one and done. And that's the same thing as paying Sweeney, but cheaper.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you, and I think, I think there are people that are looking at it more kind of like we described, and I think that's sort of the model that has to shift to, to maintain that resonance. I'm curious, as things change so fast, and you know, as we have to move week to week, month to month, without looking at the same amount of ideas, like, how do you keep your finger on the pulse? How do you get excited by things? And I'm curious, in particular, because I know you see a vast amount of brands, you're working in the middle of all these, like, how do you actually like, think about
like, what to pay attention to, what to separate from the noise? I say, like, I don't have a lot of talents, but I do have a talent to know, I have taste. And I know what's going on in Zeitgeist to say that, that's relevant. This is going to go away. Like, everyone's like freaking out about 2016. I was like, don't worry about it. You know what I mean? It's like, that's, that's just not gonna last, you know, you know, and so you need to know what's kind of relevant and what's not relevant, what's going to last, what's not going to last, what people are going to pay attention to, what not. And that's like a sixth sense. And I can't explain that.
Okay. I know everyone, it was funny. I know in the comments, people will be like, okay, well, how do I build that? Right? It's just something you can't. Well, you need to, like, as I said, again, it's a test. Like, I don't know. I mean, I do have like PhD in sociology and I did do my due diligence. I think the sociology, that's funny. That's also my, was my major in college. And I do think that's actually a really, a really important lens for people to look at. Cause then you begin to think of things in terms of like groups of consumption and the why of people buying and the, the impact they
have on each other. I do think there's a lot people can learn just from looking at that as a science. Yeah. Absolutely. But that is for me, better that I can structure, explain in structure because the whole point of sociology of business, that's the whole idea behind my newsletter is, you know, when you are a practitioner, when you, you really have to move fast and you need to think on your feet, the whole point of sociology of business is to say, Hey, let me reverse engineer what we've done. Yeah. Let me be useful. Let me explain to other practitioners what we have done. And that's where
my academic training comes useful. But this instinct of kind of knowing what is happening in culture, what to seize on. I don't think that like, you can probably train yourself, but at the end of the day, it's just a talent. How do you know? I think I'm in the right time now where the things that I'm interested in or I consume happen to align with things that are in the zeitgeist or moving a certain way or the other. And I know when I was younger, that wasn't the case. I'm sure in 10 years, it may not be as relevant, but it is interesting where I think I'm in this exact, I'm the exact consumer
people are looking for. And that's just been an interesting place to like reflect from, like people want this more in international consuming these certain goods because of what they say in the brand and the community side of it, interpreting prestige, engaging in new media. It's like the ideal customer archetype. And it's rare to actually be inside of that. But I think at least now I'm able to look at that myself a lot. See, I never wanted to be. I think that is amazing that you are. And I hope that you stay there as long as you can. There's only some amount of time, you know? Yeah. But I hope
that you evolve into like, and find a different angle because for me, I always want to do evergreen things. And that's why people even today read my book from six years ago and find it useful. And even when I look back and some stuff that I wrote, like why taste communities as the future of marketing, that's from 2018, which is eight years ago, you know, I want evergreen things that are relevant for creative, for strategy, for marketing, for brand strategy, for branding. That is, you need to know how to think. And then if you know how to think, you can apply those frameworks to no matter what is
happening. And we do. It's interesting for when we make content, we, the, myself and my team, like have a framework. We do look at everything through, which I think is really interesting. It's like, okay, this trend, it's so simple, but it actually really works. It's like, do you like it or not? Do we feel good about it or not? And then is it coming or is it going? And those are actually harder questions to answer than you think, right? Oh, thousand percent. But then if you have that four square of like, like we don't like it and we think it's going away, or we don't like it and we think it's growing and with that, then you'd be, it's very easy to
establish an opinion and be, or to be able to have a conversation about it or where you think it's going. And so I do think there's like some light, it's just good to have those things for yourself to be like, okay, if I want to form an opinion quickly, like, can I use a framework? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, all right. So where is the, where are luxury consumers going next? Oh, I think that's, that's the hardest question, right? Is when we look at the people I know that are spending a lot of money on the same, on things still are, are doing it in tandem with experiences more than ever. Right. And I look at this, even in the clothing items that I still work on is like,
it's festival based, right? People are still making that big expenditure around Coachella, Stagecoach, et cetera. They're still doing those purchases going into Euro summer. They're getting the outfit for Canada. They're doing all these, like basically everything is in tandem to an event. And I think that's a very interesting consumption shift versus I need new things for fall, or I just buy on the whim. It's like, oh, how am I putting together my plan? And more and more that relates to their content plan or their girlfriend's content plan, or like, oh, I also have to, this is going to be on
video or this is going to be. And so there's a very interesting, like new consumer angle that's so tied to these ongoing experiences that they consume around and less evergreen. That thing is really interesting. And I don't think brands have quite played into yet. I'm curious what you think about that. You think, I don't know, because I think that like true ultra high net worth. Yeah. And that's not that, that's one level below that. Right. Yeah. I don't know that customer, that true ultra high net worth customer. I don't know as well. I don't like, they're nowhere to be seen. They don't want to be seen.
They don't like, they're like, forget about the phones. They're like, they have their assistance. And then like, we don't know where they are. They don't touch anything. They're like, they're more illusory than average. I have one thesis. I have one thesis on that customer and that the still, the best way to reach that consumer is in, in the hobby. In I'm extremely into boating. I'm extremely into horseback riding. I'm into these exact experiences and those places where you can still show up authentically if you know the culture and if you're, and, but that's one of the last places to
actually get excitement. Formula one or yeah. Yeah. Or even soccer or even like, right. But you're not going to hang out with them. You're not going to see them because it's more and more and more removed experience because they're going to have their own, like, you know, even when they watch world cup, they're going to have their own place and their own thing. But let's say, uh, but the companies that are selling them, like, okay, they're still going and buying boats. They're still going to the show. They're going to the Monaco boat show to look at that. There's some of those places where
you can still activate in an interesting way. But I had a conversation. I'm going to Monaco after this and I'm, uh, for a, like a client item that's about luxury personal brand. Cause that's been interesting too, is you're seeing some of these people now who have never had to think about, I don't have to have an online presence or anything who are finally like, okay, well now this actually sort of matters for our business now. And, but we want to approach it from a luxury angle. And that's a very interesting conversation. It is. I think that's very important. And I think people as luxury goods, and I don't
think we've seen that at all. And I always position sociology of business as a luxury good. It's incredibly expensive. It's one of the most, I think that's most expensive. Oh, no, I've, I've actually, I bring that up as an example. I probably brought it up several, 10 times in conversation of that, you can have a premium sub stack and it's all about the price and it's all about what is featured inside of it. And you are the exact example of that. Thank you. But it's really, I believe in that the value you get there. I literally, I'm very generous in what I like. I'm not a community builder. My model is broadcasting. So don't come to me with questions.
It's all in there because that's on purpose. I give a lot. It costs a lot, but I give a lot. Well, and now I feel like over time, the archive is what's worth- Unbelievable. Yeah. And now I'm going to add white papers and presentations with all those models and so on. But there is a lot there. And like, as you said, there is an article that's like now more, I mean, I started writing in 2008, basically. That was even before I graduated, even before I got a PhD. And so there is a lot there. It is expensive, but that's what you basically get as a return on investment is, I mean, how many thousand times more, you know?
And I do think smart personal brands and smart media do the same thing that brands do. They take from, they take luxury codes and use them. I have a mass personal brand, not a luxury personal brand, but I take a lot of those same trappings from it in terms of how you reach people or how you present or how you position or what you talk about and where, how you price. And I think there is a, I think there's a lot even deeper in that. And if you do want to have a personal brand, treating it like, oh, you need to invest in marketing, you need to invest in operations, all these things that people haven't thought about before. There's a massive economy around that,
just by nature of how many of Gen Z are creators, how many people now have that as part of the business. I think there's a whole, there's a whole world that's kind of unexplored on how marketers work through that, how brands work through that, and then what that means for how we communicate in the future. Yes. And then how would you say that Instagram is different from TikTok in that sense? Oh, extremely. Well, I think because the, the candid content on Instagram, you can have a myriad of content, high end to low end, high production, whatever it is. And you can begin to build
real affinity with people where, and you can build it around different things. Whereas on TikTok, it is extremely, it has to be that relationship almost from moment one, right? I have 300,000 followers on TikTok. I don't have that one-on-one relationship with them. All my content is value driven. They don't know me at all. They don't have that personalization. So basically it's like, if the content has enough value, it will perform and anything else won't work. But if I was to start from scratch and it was really about my story right along with it, I would have significantly more resonance. And I think
that's how you have to approach that network now, whether it's a brand or as a creator, is it really has to be a narrative you build with the fans at the same time. And Instagram, you don't need to do that. Right. So on Instagram, it's more impersonal, more about the subject matter. And on TikTok, it's more about or and... And it reaches, and it reaches a, the algorithms work slightly differently, like, and the affinity works a lot, a lot differently. And I feel like on Instagram, you get more access to the people that follow you more often, as long as you keep giving them things they enjoy, they'll go with
it. And, and that, and value still reigns king. Whereas on TikTok, it is really about your community and your fandom to get consistency, or else it's always going to be a shot in the dark. I think a lot of creators are seeing the same thing now. You'll see more people than ever. It's like 5,000 views, 10,000 views, 5,000 views, 10,000 views, 80, 100. And then back to the five to 10, right? It's way less, because oh, it's Instagram. It's always, you're consistently raising your, raising your bar. I think that's a challenge. But I also think that all of these networks work really well in tandem, right? If you have the
ability to create widely around them as a brand or a creator, you are able to like Instagram, I think should be most people's primary. You do still want to work on LinkedIn, because that's where real businesses reach out to you. CEOs aren't DMing you from their account with their kids photos or whatnot, but they will on LinkedIn if they see you, even if that video almost has 10 likes, because they saw you on Instagram. YouTube has no better long affinity where people actually get to learn more and actually put action into the universe versus you can't get that in a two minute video. You get an
introduction to a concept, but you can change someone's career arc on YouTube or their life. And I think that is a, is really important, but you can only do so much content there. It's gated by how much you can release. And whereas TikTok is for a native type of extroverted person who can really build a fan base alongside them. It's excellent for them and hard for everybody else. Interesting. And are you afraid of copycats? I have a lot of copycats, but I'm not really afraid of it. I, what I've noticed is that it's natural. It's going to happen. They can get views, but not resonance. But then also you have to
evolve. Like my content looks nothing like it did nine months ago. It's changed production value. We changed the topics. We changed the way we hook. They changed the way we've talked. And so they're still copying the things from that last wave. And that evolution is really necessary because people get bored in how they consume algorithms change. And as a creator, I think your job is to continually evolve your toolkit. And so, um, and we've worked now a lot to be uncopyable in terms of like the scripting or the way we joke or the relevancy or the approach. And you know, uh, because people were just putting
all those transcripts in the cloud and spitting content back out. That sounds exactly like me. And you're like, how do you compete with that by things that are intangible by referencing jokes on screen, referencing cultural things people wouldn't do being a little risque. I think those are all signs of human life basically. So that is basically the same thing that brands have to do what we just talked about because at the same time, like, do you want to be mango with the giant screen and view of Acropolis or are you going to go maybe premium? Are you going to go to VIP? Are you
going to go to some like collection of niches? Like what is, you said you need to be more risque, you need to be human. You need to be like personality is to me, the biggest competitive differentiator always. And like, you know, like I always say, oh, they can steal my playbook, but they can't steal my play. You know what I mean? Because that, that is, I'm always going to riff a little bit on myself. So that's inimitable in a way, but that's a lesson for brands as well. That like risk taking is not being faster, but being smarter. I think about, if I were to leave people with two things coming out
of this, I think it's that, it's that risk. Just keep changing, but not being faster, just, just being more smarter and just like being more aware of what you're doing. You probably can't compete on speed. Someone's going to be able to do more than you. They're going to be able to get the longer influencer table. They're going to be able to do a lot of that, but you taking the steps that they won't or not repeating those same things is at least giving you an opportunity to be ahead of the curve. And then also that personality, because I agree that even for brands, I'm like the more,
the more people you have on camera, it doesn't have to be the founder. It can be representatives, people, ambassadors, team members, your story is told by your world. And that's your consumers, that's your employees, that's the people you choose to have represent you. And it's extremely effective. And it comes down to, do people gravitate to their personalities? It's one of the last honest things we have. Yeah. So, well, I have accent and I have a PhD, so it's going to take a minute to acquire either of those. That's true. Look, I appreciate you coming and talking through this and I hope everyone has value.
Please go check out Ana's books. We'll link them here below and follow the sociology of business. And thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This is amazing. Thank you.