25% Of My Portfolio Is Tesla Stock, Here's Why

SPEAKER_01

There's something insane going on in the world right now. This is Black Mirror, right? This is Amazon Prime's original new series about how tech takes over the world and then the world's never the same again. [SPEAKER_02] Do you know who Hal Finney is? The man who, up until the New York Times article, I thought was the guy who created Bitcoin, but he's dead.

SPEAKER_01

So he may have been Satoshi Nakamoto, the guy who created Bitcoin, but even if he wasn't, he was definitely the first person to ever receive Bitcoin from the creator of Bitcoin. And he's an OG cryptographer, et cetera. A founding father. Founding father of Bitcoin. That's a great way of putting it. So I was on his old blog last night and he died, I don't know, he died like 10 plus years ago of ALS. Yeah, it's terrible Lou Gehrig's disease. I went and read the blog post when he announced, when he was sharing that he got diagnosed with ALS and he was feeling totally fine at the time. And I just saw this thing in the comments. It was so weird. It was watching famous people today, but in some way, like when they were on the Disney show and they're young or whatever. It's he wasn't famous at this time. He's blogging on his own little personal website. And then the first comment is from this guy, Eliezer, who today is really famous for basically being the biggest doomer on AI. So he's the first comment and he's, have you looked into cryogenics? And then Hal responds, yes, I actually have already, I'm working with Alcor to freeze my body. Did you know that this is actually a thing that happens and how this all works?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I knew it because Family Guy made fun of it. Isn't Ted Williams, do you know who Ted Williams is, the famous baseball player? Ted Williams was one of the first people to do this. He's frozen right now.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, he's frozen. And I think that there was a joke that Walt Disney was into it as well. But basically the idea is you freeze someone when they're dead in hopes that one day we'll solve this and you can come back to life.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] So he talked about this company, Alcor. And so I was, Alcor. And I was really ready for this to be super evil megacorp, right? You pay them tons of money and they freeze your body and they're whatever. But it turns out, I think it's a little more innocent than that. It's a nonprofit that was started by this husband and wife couple who read this book. There was a book that was published that was very influential in this space. And it was basically a book that argued that today you could do this thing, which is right when you die, if you're very fast acting, you can essentially put antifreeze on your body so you could freeze your body as is. I think it's liquid nitrogen.

SPEAKER_02

It's liquid nitrogen.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but it functions almost, they basically inject something in your veins also because they need your cells to not, your veins not collapse or something. So they put something in your vein and then they use liquid nitrogen to cool you down. And then you are cryogenically frozen indefinitely. And I've always thought, I had heard of the concept. I didn't actually fully realize that there's a business behind this. You pay $200,000 and you're frozen. And, you know, they've frozen, I think 200 people have done it, 200 something people have done it. 1500 people have are working with Alcor saying, freeze me when I die. They just haven't died yet. So I didn't realize, it's a thing. It's a business that exists that people pay for. And, you know, it's $80,000 just to freeze the head and it's 200 grand to freeze the whole body. And then, before you die, you pick up a hundred bucks a year to save your spot. And there's a whole operation behind it. So that was already a fascinating thing. Number one. Okay. So this led me down a little bit of a rabbit hole, I'm a hyper normal guy. I don't really do that much fringe stuff. And I would have never considered doing this, but I've been reading a lot of these stories with AI. We talked about some of them on this podcast about the guy who cured his dog's cancer. And then you brought up the founder of GitLab who cured his own cancer using AI and hyper personalized targeted medicine.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] He's trying to, he's trying to. No, he did. It's in remission. [SPEAKER_02] Oh, he did? Yeah, he did it. By the way, I have the whole update on it. It's crazy. I really want to have him on. It's a let's go to that in a second. This is wild. I just went down the rabbit hole. So I've been seeing this and it's, okay, it's not crazy that in the next 30 years that AI is going to figure out how to cure a lot of disease, death, to be able to bring back cryogenically frozen people.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, he did it. By the way, I have the whole update on it. It's crazy. I really want to have him on. Let's go to that in a second. This is wild. I just went down the rabbit hole. So I've been seeing this and it's not crazy that in the next 30 years that AI is going to figure out how to cure a lot of disease, death, to be able to bring back cryogenically frozen people to be alive or to upload their consciousness, upload their brain into some sort of LLM. That's not crazy to me now.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I don't. Well, so I always get these videos. I get emotional videos on Instagram all the time. And one of my favorite videos is when a family meets the recipient of the heart of, for example, if my kid or husband or wife died and I get to put my ear on the heart and hear, it always makes me emotional. And so I'm like, oh man, that's the greatest gift in the bad situation. So I do love that, but I'd much rather be alive than that situation. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

No, but okay, you're saying, yeah, but you've never thought about this, right? You're not actually, you've never taken a step in this direction. Have you actually been like, yeah, that would be something I plan to do. The only step that I've made is I've read this Wikipedia before.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Okay. So doors are open. Yeah. There's been some problem. Like when I went, when I Googled what you said, the link was purple. I'd clicked it. On this show, we have spent hours talking to some of the best investors alive. Well, lucky for you, the team at HubSpot, they have pulled out the principles that matter most and turned it into a very simple, easy to read wealth guide. It's 35 principles from the top investors. We're talking guys who have been on the pod like Howard Marks, Monish Pabrai, Morgan Housel, Cathie Wood, and a ton others. So these are all their frameworks, their mental models, their rules, how to play the long game and how to avoid ruin. You can get it in the link below.

SPEAKER_01

So this led me down a little bit of a rabbit hole. Then I saw this Elon clip. [SPEAKER_00] I do think it is a very solvable problem. When we figure out what causes aging, I think we'll find it's incredibly obvious. It's not a subtle thing. The reason I say it's not a subtle thing is because all the cells in your body pretty much age at the same rate. So why is that? That means that there must be a clock, a synchronizing clock, that is synchronizing across 35 trillion cells in your body. So have you ever seen this clip before?

SPEAKER_01

No. I didn't know that he cared about that. The guy just asked him a question. He's like, well, I've never, I haven't spent time looking into it. It's not one of my missions I'm on right now. But then he said this thing, which is, you know, if Elon says something, you pay a little bit of attention. So he's saying, you know, I suspect it's solvable that the solution, that, you know, the problem is obvious. And the reason why I thought was a pretty first principle way of thinking about it, which is, there's got to be a clock because your entire body is aging at, you know, roughly the same rate. And if your body's synchronized, that means if there's a clock, maybe the clock can be changed. Maybe you could turn the hands of the clock and slow down the aging or reverse the aging or set it to a different time. And, you know, we've seen this with stem cell treatment and peptides, there's all this stuff going on. And so you're like, hmm, that's interesting. Maybe there's something there. And so, by the way, the reason he does say why he hasn't spent much time on this, and it's pretty, he's basically like, aging slash death is a feature, not a bug. So he's like, if people live forever, society will ossify because the people in charge will be the oldest people and the oldest people will want the least change. And progress and change comes from some, an out with the old in with the new mentality, which comes with the physicality of out with the old in with the new.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] So I, I, you make fun of me a little bit and it's deserving. I cause I brag about how because the people in charge will be the oldest people, and the oldest people will want the least change. And progress and change comes from an "out with the old, in with the new" mentality, which comes with the physicality of out with the old, in with the new.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] So I—I make fun of me a little bit and it's deserving. I brag about how I think that we—when Brian told me we were the first media appearance Brian Johnson has ever done. And I take a lot of pride in that because if you go past the silliness of the whole thing and how easy it is to tease him for what he's doing, if you actually go and read his blog, it is pretty miraculous. Some of the stuff that he's doing and the way that he looks, it's fun to—it's easy to make fun of him. It seems quite amazing that if you just take a little bit of what he's doing, there could be benefits. I just signed up for a fancy doctor and I went, and this was the first time that I've met a doctor where they didn't laugh at him. Every doctor that I've ever talked to has been like, "Oh, that guy's crazy. That's just stupid." Same with the things that you and I did where you—the preventative MRIs. Yeah, they laugh at him. They're like, "Well, it just sets off so many potentially false alarms." I'm like, that's the downside and that's why you don't want to do it. That's incredible. That's silly. So my point being is I do think that a lot of people are coming around to this and it is quite interesting. It's way out of my IQ level when people say disease and aging is solvable. I think that's a platitude. That sounds cool, but it's too hard for me to understand because I just don't know anything about it, but it is interesting. I wonder if in the history of the world the richest people on earth, which now they are richer than potentially ever before, that many of them have made this their cause. Hmm.

SPEAKER_01

Have you ever heard of this guy, Aubrey de Grey? [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. He's the researcher who does this. He's an academic, right?

SPEAKER_01

So he's been doing this for decades and he kind of got canceled, I think, because he was hitting on his lab assistants or whatever was going on. So I'm not saying this guy's a great guy or whatever, but he's this very fascinating guy. He looks like Dumbledore. He's got a huge gray beard down to his belly. Looks like a researcher. He's a longevity researcher who looks ancient, essentially. And he's got this theory, which is his theory. If you've ever gone down the rabbit hole, which I did one night, I don't know, five years ago. What he said is basically that death is not a mystery, that there are these 12 things that basically cause cell damage. It's just wear and tear. Your cells in your body are a car. And the more you use them, the more they accumulate damage and eventually enough damage, they die. Okay. It's not some mandate from God. It's not something that we don't understand at all. His belief is actually we could see the factors that lead to it. If we could just reverse those factors, then we wouldn't die. The second thing he talks about is this idea of longevity escape velocity, L-E-V. Ever heard of this?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] I've never heard of that, but is that as simple as basically your biological age grows slower than your—or sorry, your chronological age grows slower than your biological age? Am I explaining that correctly? I think you had it right the first time, but no, this is a different concept. But what he says, it's like that guy Ray Kurzweil who talked about AI and the singularity. What he meant by that was at some point— [SPEAKER_02] but is that as simple as your biological age grows slower than your, or sorry, your chronological age grows slower than your biological age? Am I explaining that correctly?

SPEAKER_01

I think you had it right the first time, but no, this is a different concept. But what he says, that guy Ray Kurzweil who talked about AI and he talked about the singularity. What he meant by that was at some point, it won't be the humans that are programming AI, but the AI will program the next AI to be better. And then that smart AI will program the next AI to be better. And it'll just keep, and then that's when you get this explosion of intelligence. And he's like, you can't see beyond the singularity because once that happens, all bets are off, which is what we're getting close to doing. Inside these research labs, it's not just the highly paid people at OpenAI or Claude or whatever, Anthropic who are coding the models. The models are coming up with ideas and running experiments and coding the next model soon. And that's partially happening. But once that fully happens, the progress, the rate of progress will go exponential. A little hockey stick in a crazy way.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Claude did the greatest PR release ever or PR thing where they said, this model is so powerful. We can't release it. Too dangerous. I'm like, okay, I want it. Yeah. It's the Four Lokos of AI. I heard in Tennessee that they make them at 11% alcohol, but we in Ohio, we can only get 7%.

SPEAKER_01

This kid had the greatest light in his life and his heart exploded. Yeah. We should do that with the podcast, by the way. We should just be like, this one is too dangerous. We can't release it. We simply cannot. But sorry, anyways, the idea being, there's going to be a point where medical research on longevity is adding years to your life faster, adding more than one year to your lifespan than one year. So the research and the interventions and the protocols and the knowledge around extending your life is going faster than your actual chronological age. And when that happens, then you get at least multi-hundred year lives, if not indefinite life, which is a pretty crazy idea. But when I read about this longevity stuff, it reminds me of what's been going on with AI. AI was something that had been talked about for 50 plus years. Theorized, talked about, worked on, always seemed niche, never seemed like a breakthrough, always seemed like a boy who cried wolf type of industry where never really made enough progress. And then suddenly you get AlexNet and then you get ChatGPT and you get these breakthroughs and then the world's never the same again. And my prediction is that in the next, I don't know, 15 years, we're going to have a ChatGPT moment for life extension. And that you're going to get some breakthrough in this longevity and life extension that's going to make it where it went from this fringe, academic topic to something that everybody does.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] So in January of 2021, I had this Chinese kid who worked for me. He was an intern. He was from China. And I remember him telling me, he was like, Sam, this COVID thing, it's real and it's got to come to America. And I was like, brother, you guys have the bird flu. You got this and that. This is America. These colors don't run. We don't wear masks. This is not a thing. And then a month later, I distinctly remember, I think it was in March. I remember when I got the notification, I was going to go to a Warriors basketball game and it said season postponed indefinitely. And I was like, you're right. It's here. You are so right. And what I'm asking myself every day is with AI, is it January? And I'm just sitting here being like, living my life, as if there's an asteroid on its way. And I,

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] I distinctly remember, I think it was in March. I remember when I got the notification, I was on my way to go to a Warriors basketball game and it said season postponed indefinitely. And I was like, you're right. It's here. You are so right. And what I'm asking myself every day is with AI, is it January? And I'm just sitting here being like, living my life as if there's an asteroid on its way. And we just don't know yet. And that's what I'm wondering all the time. Is it January of '21? What would that look like? Or do you, what do you mean when you, because COVID obviously was a pandemic, a catastrophe. Do you mean catastrophe?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] So here's an example. In January, I think it was, what's his name? Is it Balji? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] He wrote this post because the joke was like these autistic venture capitalists understand exponential growth. They see the numbers and they're making people wash their hands before they come into the office. How stupid of them. And Block, or Jack Dorsey's company just laid off a ton of people. And we're thinking to ourselves like, well, this guy's crazy. What's he doing? And then but every other company is like, should we do this? And is there going to be a domino effect over the next 12 to 24 months where it starts happening. Another one starts happening. Another one, 10 more this week. And they're all doing these layoffs because it's actually effective. That is what I'm wondering.

SPEAKER_01

So you mentioned the Jack Dorsey thing. And I think the way you said it undersells what actually happened. Because the way you said it was, Jack Dorsey's company, formerly known as Square, now known as Block, laid off a bunch of people. I've heard that. There's been tech layoffs. There's even been huge deep tech layoffs. That's happened many times in history. What's different this time? And I think the reason it's different is he laid off the people because he was like, the normal corporate model doesn't work or make sense anymore. We're not going to have an org chart with a CEO and then managers and managers and managers underneath. Actually, there's just going to be one central brain called AI and all of us feeding context into it.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] That's what Brian Halligan, the former CEO of HubSpot told me. He was like the future companies, it's a hub of AI. They make the majority of decisions and everyone's around it. It's a hub to spot. We're like,

SPEAKER_02

Bro, I see what you did there.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] Come on. Get out of here. But yeah, so what does that actually mean? What does that, it sounds esoteric, right? Like the central brain or whatever. Here's the flip. I don't think most people appreciate today. It's like, oh yeah, I use ChatGPT all the time. I use it for dumb questions. I use it for my job. My piano teacher was like, have you heard of this thing called Claude? And I was like, yeah, I've definitely heard of it. I've been using it all day basically. And then she's like, my dad loves it. And I was like, what does your dad do? Some normal job. And he was like, yeah, I use it to make my presentations. And it seems today like there's a junior assistant worker that you can task to go do everything. Everybody gets an assistant. Everybody gets a junior programmer. Everybody gets a chief of staff. That's what I would say the mental model most people are operating with. Wow. If I use this, this makes me so much more productive. I think what's obvious to me, and it sounds like to Jack Dorsey, is that the super intelligence is not going to be the junior thing to your average intelligence. The super intelligence is going to be the boss. You're going to be the junior thing. And so that's what he's, that's what these guys are talking about, Brian Halligan and Jack Dorsey, which is that actually there'll be a central AI that's making the key decisions, allocating resources, figuring out strategy, coming up with the,

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] The super intelligence is not going to be the junior thing to your average intelligence. The super intelligence is going to be the boss. You're going to be the junior thing. And that's what these guys are talking about, Brian Halligan and Jack Dorsey, which is that actually there'll be like a central AI that's making the key decisions, allocating resources, figuring out strategy, coming up with the core campaigns of what you're going to do, the products, the roadmap, the building of it. And that your job as humans will be to feed context, feed information to make the brain smarter. So watch this video. This is a factory in India where they're sewing garments. I think every single factory worker is wearing a headset camera to track their hand movements of everything that they're doing. And this is all data that they're being paid to give to the robotics companies like Tesla and Figure and all the big robotics companies who are quickly trying to create robots that can do any work. And so the humans here are the training data. All these Indians in this factory are wearing cameras on their heads, training the AI overlord that will replace them.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Digging your grave. You're digging your grave. And there's a great meme. Look at this. Scroll down. Scroll down, look at the guy sitting on the tree branch, sawing off the branch. And this is what we're all doing. So isn't that crazy, by the way, just that thing I showed here. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] Who's the vendor? Who's behind that? Does it say? Does it say?

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] So there's a company that's doing this. It's a company. This one is called ObjectWays. It's an Indian-based data labeling company founded by a 20-year-old entrepreneur, soon to be billionaire, Dev Mandal. Dev, come on the podcast. He spotted an opportunity in the gap between what AI wants to do and the training data that they have. All these humanoid robot companies like Tesla's Optimus, Figure AI, there are prototypes that need vast data sets of real world movements to master tasks like cooking, laundry, et cetera. And collecting this in a high wage country like the US is very expensive. So enter India where their team of 2000 employees produces hundreds of videos daily. In one batch, they'll get like 2000 clips of towel folding. So the workers sit there and they have to fold towels over and over again. They're penalized if they have bad footage, if your camera wasn't pointed at the thing. Hey, you messed up. Don't get bad training data. Give good training data. And so they're doing this all day. And then they send it to companies like Scale AI, the big data labeling companies here who then resell that to all the AI labs. What? This is incredible. It's something. There's something insane going on in the world right now. This is straight out of Black Mirror on one hand. It's hyper logical. It's hyper rational. It's capitalism at work. Dude, these robots, when they work, it's going to be the biggest product ever invented in the history of mankind, bigger than the iPhone, bigger than anything. When you get a $20,000 robot that can do work, it is the biggest product ever. It's why I have a huge chunk of my net worth in Tesla right now because that's obviously the biggest product going to the biggest market in the world. It's just a matter of when, not if. To do that, you're going to need data. That means the data is very valuable. If the robots are valuable, the data is valuable. How do you get the data? Well, obviously you'd go to the lowest cost place where you have a bunch of humans doing hand-held tasks. And they're happy to take a hundred dollars a day to wear the camera on their head. Yeah, they got a little neck pain. That C5, C6 vertebrae is a little strain because they're wearing this heavy camera for eight hours a day. Yeah, they're probably out of a job soon, but a hundred dollars a day right now, a hundred dollars a month. That's double my wage. This is great.

SPEAKER_02

So what I had read about last week was that when Claude was messing around with their new model, that if I remember correctly, it escaped. Like, [SPEAKER_01] for eight hours a day. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

They're probably put out a job soon, but hey, a hundred dollars today, a hundred dollars a day right now, a hundred dollars a month. That's double my wage. This is great. [SPEAKER_02] So what I had read about last week was that when Claude was messing around with their new model, that if I remember correctly, it escaped. Like, I think it jumped in. Did it jailbreak?

SPEAKER_01

The nuance of the story is a little bit different. It's a little less scary than you may sound. They told the model, the model gets tasked with, you're in a sandbox. Your job is to try to escape. So they're trying to see how good—it's not like it just on its own came up with the motivation of like, fuck this. I'm out of here. No, you know. But it was capable. [SPEAKER_02] They're testing. And then the researcher who set up the task is sitting at a park, eating a sandwich and gets an email from his bot. Like, I'm out. Like David Blaine, David Blaine, his ass. [SPEAKER_02] It's not that bad. And then you painted a worse picture.

SPEAKER_01

They should do. You remember the old David Blaine street magic videos where he would just walk on the street and do a trick? And they'd always inevitably be the people who have the best reactions where they just run around in a circle with their hands over their head. I feel like the AI companies, instead of making these thoughtful, they go to a loft in San Francisco with natural wood fibers everywhere. And then they're speaking about the future of humanity and whatever they need to do David Blaine street magic about what their models can do. If I was a tier three model and I'm trying to jump up, that would be my marketing strategy: just showing people's minds being blown with man on the street interviews. Yeah. And then he's like, you spend a million dollars. You get all the help and self-help and therapy you can get in all the different versions. Where do you land? I'm guessing it's something like that book, The Alchemist, where he goes around the world searching for something and it's in his own backyard or whatever. I'm like, what's the thing that was in your own backyard? And he goes, oh, all philosophy and religion basically condenses down into three words: Be here now. And he's like, whether it's Buddhism or it's philosophers or a different religion, whatever religion you're looking at, fundamentally it's about presence. And can you be here now? And being here now means it's not just about not checking your phone or being present that way, but not worrying about what happened in the past, which can't be changed, or being anxious or even excited about what's happening in the future, which is not here yet, but actually being able to center your mind around what is happening in this moment, because it's the only moment that's real. What comes with that is the lack of desire. So the Buddha said, desire is suffering. And so it's the idea that you can be in a moment and not be wanting anything more than what the moment is already giving you. Not wanting to be anywhere, not wanting something to happen, and then the fun will start. It's like, no, no, this part is the fun. There's nothing missing from this moment.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Has any other learnings that you've gotten from him turned into action? I like that. What else you got? Is that what you're saying? Like, what's another one that's kind of— [SPEAKER_02] Well, I'm actually thinking, is this so amazing that I should also get an executive coach? Because I haven't had one in forever.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think anybody with the means should have one. And I think by the way that with AI, everybody will have the means. Because it'll drop the price of this pretty dramatically. But yeah, it does. And I think, you know, have you ever heard of rubber ducking? I think I've mentioned this once or twice. Have you ever heard of this phrase? So rubber ducking is a programming term. So let's say you're a software engineer, you're coding, writing code all day and your code's not working. It's not compiling. You have a bug.

SPEAKER_01

But yeah, it does. And I think, have you ever heard of rubber ducking? I think I've mentioned this once or twice. Have you ever heard of this phrase? So rubber ducking is a programming term. So let's say you're a software engineer, you're coding, writing code all day and your code's not working. It's not compiling. You have a bug. It's not doing what you want it to do. So the way that most people traditionally solve this problem is they sit there, they bang their head against the wall, or if they want to do better, they would invite someone, another smart programmer to come look at the code and see if they can help debug it and figure out what's wrong. And rubber ducking was this observation that you don't even need another smart programmer. There's a programmer who had a little rubber ducky on his desk. And he found that just by talking out, explaining the code to the rubber duck, he would find the issues much faster and much more painlessly.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] It's the Solomon complex, which is you tend to give other people better advice than you give yourself. And so if you pretend that you are the third party and you advise that person and give them some wisdom, you should just take that and it will be better advice than if you just said, do this, Sam to yourself.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right, right. So this idea of rubber ducking is very powerful. So even if my coach wasn't great, even if he didn't spend a million dollars, even if he himself wasn't a successful business guy who had learned a bunch of lessons that way and lived a bunch of life, even if it was a rubber duck, it would be useful. And by the way, I've tried this. I had a coach when I was at Twitch, they gave you a coach if you're on the exec team. So it's like, here's a free coach. So I was like, I've never tried this before. Let me try this. And I was very skeptical going in because I was like, ah, life coaches. I've been to enough Tony Robbins events to know that the biggest loser at a Tony Robbins event becomes a life coach. It's a third of the audience at Tony Robbins is broken people who are, if you ask them what their job is, they say they're life coaches. And you're like, oh my God, you're coaching people. That's the bartender being your driving instructor or something. I don't know. It's the analogy I didn't know, but I don't want that. So I had this very skeptical view of it. And sure enough, I get on the call and her Zoom background is this cheesy green screen thing. And then she moved to Florida because her own life fell apart. And then she was like, yeah, I'm a coach now. I'm like, wait, so your life fell apart and you have none of the things I want in life, but I'm going to take advice from you. I'm like, oh God, this is exactly what I thought. I felt so smug. And then after the first session, I was like, damn, that was really useful. And I was like, she didn't even say anything. I just talked. I just had space to talk out loud. And as I'm talking, I hear the comical absurdity of some of my thoughts and I was able to get rid of them. And for some people, this is journaling. For some people, people have different ways of doing this. Other people just talk to their friends or whatever, or maybe other people just have this solved without needing anything. But for me, I have code running in my head that is buggy software. It makes mistakes. It has self-induced errors. And I want to fix that code. So even just rubber ducking to a person who doesn't say anything, or the things they say are just very simplistic questions is so useful. And I highly recommend it to anybody who wants to improve their code in their head.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] That's great. You just convinced me. Can you say what you pay? Is it five grand a month? Two to four grand a month. It's a range that you can expect, but yeah, it's incredibly useful. And I'll give you another one. That's a realization. So we start every session with just wins. So I basically turn into Eminem. I turn into Juice WRLD. I started just freestyling at the top. [SPEAKER_02] Can you say what you pay? [SPEAKER_02] Is it five grand a month? Two to four grand a month. Cool.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] It's a range that you can expect, but yeah, it's incredibly useful. And I'll give you another one. That's a realization. So we start every session with just wins. So I turn into Eminem. I turn into Juice World. I started just freestyling at the top. I just say, all right, I'm going to start with wins before he says anything. And I just start saying random wins. So I'll be like, I've been reading this book and it's awesome. And I just feel proud of myself for reading books. I've been saying I want to do it and I never really do that, but then finally I'm doing it. So I'm proud of that. I took my son to the soccer game today and last week he was crying about it, but this week he went in and he actually did the class. I didn't have to help him. And I felt awesome about that. Another win is that last night I really wanted a snack, but then I just avoided it. And I went to get a glass of water. I went to bed and I have no filter with somebody. And if I was to say this to you or to a friend, they'd be like, whoa, I didn't ask. What are you doing? What's happening right now? Or I would feel self-conscious that I couldn't say a small thing as a win. It'd have to be a big thing. And that's literally robbing yourself of joy because actually the better way to live life is to be excited about the small things, but there's no space where you could just be excited about the small things, right? Like where is that cool to do? But in this case, it's like, yo, I'm paying you. I get to do what I want here. I don't have to care about how you feel about this. I don't have to listen to you. I don't have to ruin it by sidetracking this way. No, that's what this is for. This is the space for me to do that. And I heard this great quote from Jimmy Carr, the comedian where he said, dude,

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] He's a thinker now. He's not even a comedian. He's a wisdom guy. [SPEAKER_02] He's a philosopher.

SPEAKER_01

If you haven't, have you listened to him? He did a podcast with Chris Williamson recently. That was so good. I texted Chris. I was like, this is one of my favorite podcasts in years. And it's because he's a philosopher. And he's very thoughtful. And so Jimmy Carr said, he was like, oh, everybody talks about gratitude. Gratitude is so important, but gratitude is this heavy activity to do. It's like, I know I should be doing that, but I'm not doing it. And you feel a little cheesy doing it. He's like, celebration is just gratitude in motion. And so he's like, just celebrate what's going on in your life. Like just be, it's okay to be excited about what your life is. It's okay to be excited about what just happened. And so that's an example of a simple thing that I do with the coach that actually makes a difference. Because I build a lot of momentum and I check in on the positives of life and not just the problems of life, right? Because me and you, we're probably most entrepreneurs by default are problem solvers. We get paid to solve problems. Our company is just solving a problem in the market. And then as CEO, you're solving the nastiest problems in the company. And then when anybody, if they get stuck in their job, you have to dive in and help solve that problem. And every day there's a new problem. So we get wired for problem seeking and problem destruction. It's good for achievement, but it's not good for happiness to be a problem seeker.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] I haven't seen you since we haven't done a solo thing in a minute. The Chris thing was cool. You and Chris and George and the other, the fitness guy. Sorry. Yeah. I think you're great. I just can't remember your first name. It was great. It was a great pod. Oh, thanks. Yeah. I'm going to do another one this week. So we're going to try to run it back a second time. The context for those who don't know, Chris Williamson, the guy who does Modern Wisdom, he did an episode which was a little bit different. Normally he's interviewing somebody like I'm interviewing, whatever, Jordan Peterson or Huberman or whoever.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, thanks. Yeah. I'm going to do another one this week. So we're going to do it, try to run it back a second time. The context for those who don't know, Chris Williamson, the guy who does Modern Wisdom, he did an episode, which was a little bit different. Normally he's interviewing somebody like, I'm interviewing whatever Jordan Peterson or Huberman or whoever. And this was Chris hanging out with his friends, just four guys kind of shooting the shit was the idea. And the original premise was like a, almost like a show and tell, like everybody kind of bring just shit that you're interested in right now, something funny. You saw something cool. That's caught your attention and just, let's just all show each other what's going on. But it was like a three hour hang. That was the idea.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] I thought you were the most entertaining person. I thought Chris is a very entertaining person. George is entertaining. I thought that the combination, so George Mack is like, comes off sounding very proper and, you are improper, but you're more of a, a different type of charming person. And I thought that dynamic was quite good. The half the stories that you told, I think you had like, we have discovered them together or, or you've already. So I thought you're, so I had heard a lot of them and I thought it was funny. It made me a bit proud, to see you there, but I thought it was great. I thought it was like a fun riff. I think that they should continue trying different people, including, and have you there though all the time. So, O's Pearlman, the magician came to my office and we did a thing with him. We did a pod with him.

SPEAKER_01

And by the way, great pod, love that pod. It didn't get a lot of views on YouTube. I don't know what people are doing, sleeping on it. It was a great podcast. [SPEAKER_02] Thank you. I don't know why either, but listen to what he did. He came in and we only chit chatted for 10 minutes. And then we chit chatted only for 10 minutes after. And in those times he was just performing. And I was like, I had an off, for some reason in my company, it's like mostly young women who work there. And they are like enthralled by this guy as I am too. And they like walked in and they were, I could tell they were waiting. And they're like, oh, you don't have to, but you know—

SPEAKER_01

It's really dressed up today. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Like, you know that they're just wanting you to dance. If you want to, you can, but if you don't want to just let's, it's something he was like, no, I'll do it. He guessed the name that we have. We had a woman who has given birth soon. He guessed the name of her child. Like he was like, you're like, he, she hadn't, yeah. He likes, he's like, let me figure out what name you're going to name your kid.

SPEAKER_01

Let's walk through this step by step because I'm fascinated by magic. He walks in the office, but I'm trying to figure out how the hell he does all this shit. So did you talk to him beforehand? Like how much did he pull from you before he showed up at the office? Was there a lot of talk? Was there any talk? [SPEAKER_02] There's one trick that I can, that I think I know how he did it, but he thought that you were going to be there. And he was like, oh, I'd prepared tricks for both of you guys. Yeah. Cause I was texting him.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And he was like, I thought you guys were both going to be here. I was like, oh no, I'm so sorry. I thought we communicated with you. And he's like, okay, well, I had a different thing prepared. So let me try something else. He was like, can you, think of, you know— [SPEAKER_02] He says, before the podcast, right? There's before the podcast. [SPEAKER_02] And he says his phrases like, he thinks that you're going this way and then he changes. So he'll be like, you know, I want you to do actually—

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] He was like, can you write down, think of, they, he, he, he says his phrases like, he thinks he thinks that you're going this way and then he changes. So he'll be like, I want you to do actually, actually, let's do this. Let's do this. Write down, do me a favor. Think of a party that you want to have a birthday party and think there's one person who you want to, who you want to show up there. Get right. That person down. You actually screw it. Let's just do this on air. And he went and he grabs that paper that I wrote and he tore it up. And then he did the trick on air, that same trick. And I think that when the, I think the tear was fake. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Does that make sense? Okay. Okay. That's good. That definitely, right. That definitely has to be the way that that that's done.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Okay, cool. But then listen, right when we finished the pod, we walked out and the women were just sitting there like to greet him. And they were like, can you do something? And he goes, yes. And he goes, how about you? And he points at a random lady and he goes, do me a favor. Think of your best friend. She thinks of her best friend. And he was like, it's Hannah. And she was freaking out. And he was like, let me write something down. He writes it down. And she, and he goes, tell me, where did you meet Hannah? And she goes, Mexico City. And he turns his hand and he's like, that's what I thought. And it was Mexico City. He wrote down Mexico City. And people online were like, he just researched everyone. I'm like, I had 18 women there. He can't research every person out of 18 persons.

SPEAKER_01

He doesn't need to, right? He researches one. And then he randomly, right? He chose the person. [SPEAKER_02] But do you have a best friend? How, and how would they know? That doesn't seem reasonable. Well, I do think that's the genius of what he does. So I've watched hours. I've watched 18 hours of clock time of debunking him, figuring out how he does it, interviews with him. Because I'm fascinated by the whole thing. And by the way, I'm fascinated by it in two ways. One is the tricks, but the other is the business side of it. Because if you just think about what he did by rebranding as a mentalist, instead of a magician is an all time marketing move.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Dude, post podcast, someone sent me an email. They're like, check this out. I booked him to do a party for me. And it was $150 10 years ago. And he told me how much money he's making now. It's astronomical.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, exactly. Because he's the number one, right? It's a classic marketing thing, right? The law of category instead of being yet another magician. He's like Copperfield or David Blaine, but he's not David Blaine, right? David Blaine is more famous. He does better tricks, bigger tricks. He's like the street magician. Okay. The cool. No, no, no. He's not a magician. Those are magic tricks. We all, every kid knows, everyone knows how a magic trick works. It's sleight of hand. I'm a mentalist. And he became the number one mentalist. And it wasn't, he wasn't even a category. So I'm fascinated by the positioning, the marketing, the business side of what he did. That's not an accident. He created this motherfucker, right? Like he created this thing that he is epic. And then he figured out distribution. And he's like, I need these viral moments. So he goes to NFL training camp during Hard Knocks. He piggybacks off their distribution. He blows their minds. And everyone's interested in seeing LeBron James get fooled. That's more interesting than just seeing a random guy on the street getting fooled. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

That's not an accident. He created this motherfucker, right? He created this thing that he is epic. And then he figured out distribution. And he's like, Ooh, I need these viral moments. So he goes to NFL training camp during hard knocks. He piggybacks off their distribution. He blows their minds. And everyone's interested in seeing LeBron James get fooled. That's more interesting than just seeing a random guy on the street getting fooled. Ooh, okay, good. Even more viral. [SPEAKER_02] Before the podcast, he was like, I'm starting to do podcasts again because I got overexposed last year.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] When he used the phrase overexposed, I'm like, Oh, so this is all part of the plan. Right. Right. And so then in one of his interviews, he just says a great thing.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] He talks about the secret is having multiple outs.

SPEAKER_01

So meaning, let's say you said the best friend thing. It's a probability game, right?

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] So you're not always going to know the answer.

SPEAKER_01

And so you're like, it starts with a letter. It starts with a letter. I'm getting a K sound, a T sound. Is it a T? Yeah. You know, he's hearing, looking at your reaction. He's like T. Okay. Then I know it wasn't Steve. It's Trevor. So now I had Steve written on my left forearm, but I had Trevor written on my right forearm. I'm just never going to pull the sleeve up on my left. I'll pull the sleeve up on my right. [SPEAKER_02] He told that story on the podcast. [SPEAKER_02] He went on the today show and he tried to get Al Roker to guess who then, a celebrity president would be.

SPEAKER_02

And he originally said George Clooney. And he was like, Oh no, what about a female? And it was, and he said Taylor Swift. And then he pulled, [SPEAKER_01] Or he'll be like, let's do someone modern. [SPEAKER_01] Let's do something. [SPEAKER_01] And he gets you to change it. [SPEAKER_01] And you don't know that he had, you know, Taylor Swift on his thing. [SPEAKER_01] And he had, you know, whatever, Chalamet on his butt and somebody else on his shoe. [SPEAKER_01] He just never needs to show it. [SPEAKER_01] And I'm like, wow, that's actually pretty great. [SPEAKER_01] Pretty genius. [SPEAKER_01] The way he does that.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] It was just incredible. [SPEAKER_02] He told me a story. [SPEAKER_02] He was like, I was like, did you, do you, I made a joke first. [SPEAKER_02] I was like, it's pretty funny that you can do all of this stuff. [SPEAKER_02] And it's as if they sent an alien from outer space. [SPEAKER_02] We brought up a set. [SPEAKER_02] He's like, we told this Seth Meyers show. [SPEAKER_02] And they had you perform at bar mitzvahs.

SPEAKER_02

Why aren't you doing something more special? [SPEAKER_02] That was a great question. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. [SPEAKER_01] What was his answer to that, by the way?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] He was like, he admits it.

SPEAKER_02

He was like, you know, I'm obviously not guessing what you're thinking. I'm setting you up to say a certain thing, but also I do pre-work in advance. And I could teach anyone how to do pre-work, but I can't. Interestingly, he did guess. He told me that Michigan was going to win the NCAA tournament.

SPEAKER_02

Did they win? [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Okay. He told me. [SPEAKER_01] And this was at the elite eight round. [SPEAKER_01] It's not as if, [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. [SPEAKER_01] So not that elite. And I think they're number one, but that was a thing that he just guessed. I was like, but he, he, he, he basically, it was just weird. It was really uncomfortable to hang out with him, to be honest. He was a really nice guy, but to be around someone who's so powerful, I found uncomfortable. [SPEAKER_01] You're the dudes who burned the witches back in the day. [SPEAKER_01] You're like, this is cool, but I don't like it. [SPEAKER_01] Let's tie her up.

SPEAKER_02

But I don't, how do you, I, no one has given me a good answer to the pin number. So basically, listen, yeah, Joe Rogan had a pin number guest live, and then he did it multiple times live. I don't know how he did the pin number. I don't know how he did the pin number thing. [SPEAKER_01] I think people believe it's just, he hires private investigators. [SPEAKER_01] So he knows he's going on Rogan,

SPEAKER_01

Let's tie her up. [SPEAKER_02] But I don't, how do you, I, no one has given me a good answer to the pin number.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] Listen, yeah, Joe Rogan had a pin number guest live, and then he did it multiple times live. I don't know how he did the pin number. I don't know how he did the pin number thing.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] I think people believe it's just he hires private investigators. So he knows he's going on Rogan, right? It's a big thing. So he has an investigator follow Rogan, and you can literally just, if Rogan went to an ATM, you could just watch him punch it in. It's like the cameras on the head in the factory workers. It's like, what's the incentive? If the incentive is I'm going to go on the biggest podcast distribution, tens of millions of people are going to believe I'm an actual mind reader. If this happens, I will be able to book speaking gigs for 150 grand a pop. Is it worth hiring a PI for two grand?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] When was the last time you went and got your pin number? When was the last time you typed your pin number in?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] No, but it doesn't have to be, again, he's got multiple out. So you hire the PI to do it. He doesn't have to do the pin number thing. It could be something else. It could be that he always does this other thing. It could be something in the mail that he threw out, a letter that he got from somebody. It doesn't matter. He just needs one piece of information that would be implausible that I know. Then I'm going to center the whole trick around that. If I know I'm going on Rogan, I have the PI following him for, whatever, a month until I get something. And so that's got to be what's going on. I mean, not to take the fun out of it, by the way, I think it's awesome. Even if he does all those things, I'm not using that to say it's less cool. I'm just a kid who's like, "Oh my God, how does this work?" It must be this, right? You have to go with it, right? There's a kayfabe to the whole thing that has to be maintained. It's like in wrestling, you have to sell that the guy punched you, right? You got to sell it a little bit for the whole thing to work. And life is more fun when you let him do his tricks and blow your mind versus trying to out him. Totally get that. He's great. I thought the pod was great. I think he's great. I'm super impressed with how he's built his thing up. I think it's really awesome. There's a great clip that I think people should watch. It was oddly inspiring. And it's Kevin Hart on the Joe Rogan podcast talking about when he met Jeff Bezos. Have you ever heard this clip?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] No.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] The clip is he's on Rogan and he talks about meeting Jeff Bezos at a party. He's like, "I'm at a party. Jeff Bezos is there. I don't know Jeff Bezos. I don't know if he knows me. I have no idea. And I tell my friend, I'm gonna go talk to him." And his friend is like, "No, man, come on. Don't be that guy." He's like, "What you mean?" He's like, "That's Jeff Bezos. He created some shit that I think is awesome. I don't, I'm not going to see him again. I don't know when I'm going to see him again. I'm going to go say something." He's like, "All right, man, but be cool about it." And he's like, "That's the problem. Everybody's too cool. Everybody wants to be too cool about everything." He's like, "No, I'm thirsty." He's like, "What do you want?" "I'm thirsty for knowledge. I want some information from this guy. This guy's built an empire. He's built. He knows more about the money game than me. He's built technology. I just, I want to go learn. I'm going to go talk to the guy."

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] I'm thirsty. [SPEAKER_01] He's like, what do you want? [SPEAKER_01] What do you want from me? [SPEAKER_01] I'm thirsty for knowledge. [SPEAKER_01] I want some information from this guy. [SPEAKER_01] This guy's done.

SPEAKER_01

He's built an empire. He's built. He knows more about the money game than me. He's built technology. I just want to go learn. I'm going to go talk to the guy. I'm not going to be too cool for this. I'm Kevin. I admire what you built. I think it's amazing. I would love to talk to you a little bit more. Now is not the time and place, but I would love to talk to you more at some point to get to know you and hear a little bit more about how you did this, because I think it's fascinating. And I think there's a lot I could learn from that. But I just wanted to come over and say hi because I admire what you do. And I hope someday our paths cross. And he's like, that was it.

SPEAKER_01

I got out of his way. And he's like, I don't know if I'm ever going to see him again, but if I do, I put my face out there, I put my intent, I let it be known that I think it's awesome what you do. And I would love to chat with you sometime about it. And he's like, he was super kind. And that was it. But he gave this impassioned speech about really shooting your shot. Don't be too cool to learn. Don't be too cool to make progress. Don't be too cool to put yourself out there. And I just think that was an awesome clip. I was very inspired by it. [SPEAKER_02] That is a great clip. [SPEAKER_02] That is cool.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] I went to St. Louis recently for Easter and Jesse Pugy invited me to go walking around. [SPEAKER_02] Jesse's from St. Louis. [SPEAKER_02] He's like, hey, do you want to come to my office? [SPEAKER_02] We'll go for a walk. [SPEAKER_02] I'm going to bring my friend. [SPEAKER_02] So he brings his friend and I started talking to his friend. [SPEAKER_02] His friend is named Dave Wehner. [SPEAKER_02] Dave was the CFO or now he's the chief strategy officer, but he was the CFO of Facebook for the last 15 years. [SPEAKER_02] And we were walking around, just all St. Louis guys. [SPEAKER_02] And he was just telling great stories.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Dave was telling great stories. [SPEAKER_02] I guess I'll call him Dave now. [SPEAKER_02] He's my buddy. [SPEAKER_02] And it was pretty cool. [SPEAKER_02] He was saying some cool stuff, nothing confidential, just cool anecdotes. [SPEAKER_02] And he told the story about meeting Jeff Bezos one time at a Sun Valley conference, Allen and Co. [SPEAKER_02] And he's been able to meet these ballers forever. [SPEAKER_02] He's been the CFO of Facebook for 15 years. [SPEAKER_02] And before that he was hanging out with titans of industry. [SPEAKER_02] And I was asking him, who's cool? [SPEAKER_02] Who's not cool? [SPEAKER_02] Just messing around.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] And he was like, I met Jeff Bezos a couple of times and he's one of the only titans of industry who, when he looked me in the eye, he was never looking around to see who else was in the room. [SPEAKER_02] And I was a little bit of a small fry compared to all the people who could be around. [SPEAKER_02] He looked me straight in the eye and I totally felt like we were connecting and being buddies. [SPEAKER_02] And he was always really calm and really nice to me. [SPEAKER_02] And he never was like, all right, nice to talk to you. [SPEAKER_02] I know I got to go talk to Putin. [SPEAKER_02] And that's what this guy, Dave, told me.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Who the hell does Jeff Bezos talk to? [SPEAKER_02] I don't know. [SPEAKER_02] Who's he itching to go talk to? [SPEAKER_02] I don't even know. [SPEAKER_02] Isn't that crazy? [SPEAKER_02] I got to go on a walk and hang out with this guy. [SPEAKER_02] What'd he say about Zack? [SPEAKER_02] He said he's a pleasure to work for. [SPEAKER_02] I swear to God. [SPEAKER_02] He said he's even-tempered. [SPEAKER_02] I'm not joking. [SPEAKER_02] This sounds like I'm brown-nosing. [SPEAKER_02] He said he's even-tempered.

SPEAKER_02

He's like, man, I don't even know. Isn't that crazy? I got to go on a walk and hang out with this guy. What'd he say about Zach? He said he's a pleasure to work for. I swear to God. He said he's even tempered. I'm not joking. This sounds like I'm brown nosing. He said he's even tempered. He's like, man, he's been a great boss. He's been, he's never lashes out. He has always been even tempered. He's very polite. And that he's just been great. Dave's worked there, I think for 15 or 18 years, I forget exactly how long, but for a long time.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] Dave, come on the pod. Although he's still like chief strategist, there's only so much interest. The best is the retired guys, the guys who are like two years out, actually not even freshly retired, but two years out. And they're like, what do I do with my life? And I got things to say, and I'm seeing all these dweebs online who've done one hundredth of what I've done that have this big audience. And they're talking, they're yapping. I should start yapping. That's actually why we did this pod. I did this pod with, I still have this book on my thing. The guy, John McNeil. That was awesome. He was president of Tesla. He worked with Elon for years and he's done a whole bunch of awesome startups on his own.

SPEAKER_02

The crazy thing about that pod is his PR person is Jason Yanovitz's wife, Dana. So she's a good friend of mine. And she's been saying like, have this guy on, have this guy on. And I just dismissed it. I'm like a guy who worked for Elon. That's, I don't know. And it was so good. It was so good. Isn't that obviously good? [SPEAKER_01] I don't know. I thought he was Elon's housekeeper. I'd be like, can we book a bigger studio? What are we going to do? I showed it to Ari. I'm like, is this interesting? I don't know. We get so many pitches for some reason. It didn't stand out as being like a must have. And then I listened to it and I'm like, Oh my God, this was amazing.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] No, he was great. If you haven't listened to that one, that's one of the, that one and the Graham Weaver one, but two recent episodes. I would be like, they're two of my favorite podcasts that I've listened to. I don't normally listen to MFM once you do them, but we had such good questions to Graham Weaver. I went and listened to it. And I was like, we each asked such awesome questions and DHH. Those two pods.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] I can't believe you said that with a straight face. That's hilarious. It's like when Trump recently was on the podium and he was like, he just says the quiet part out loud all the time that he was like, I don't like hanging out with people more successful than me. I like hanging out with losers. I was like, what? He's like, yeah, if I hang out with someone more successful than I feel like a loser, but when I hang out with losers, I feel great. I was like, I can't believe he's the president is saying this out loud. But even if he wasn't the president, who do you know that's actually that fundamentally unfiltered and honest?

SPEAKER_02

Did you see what he said about Pearl Harbor to the prime minister of Japan? She was like, you don't like surprises. Yeah. She was like, you know, Donald Trump, you the prime minister. I thought this was to a journalist. No, it was the leader of Japan. She was like, you should have told us about this. I ran think. And he was like, you want to talk about surprises. Why didn't you tell me about Pearl Harbor? That was incredible. [SPEAKER_01] I don't like the guy. And I think it's insane. Some of the stuff that's going on. I think it's just, I think the greed and the theft is pretty crazy with like, if you look at the world liberties, financial stuff that they're doing.

SPEAKER_02

I ran think. And he was like, you want to talk about surprises. Why didn't you tell me about Pearl Harbor? That was incredible.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] I don't like the guy. And I think it's insane. Some of the stuff that's going on. I think it's just the greed and the theft is pretty crazy. If you look at the world liberties, financial stuff that they're doing, I think the memes about how they're like, okay, you're deporting people, but rubbing it in with rap videos and memes. I think it's so tasteless coming from the official white house account. I can't get behind any of that. I'm open to somebody who's maybe got policies that you like, but there's something about the way he goes about things that is just so distasteful. But also I do think he's hilarious. I think he's an absolute master of the gift of gab. And I do think that's amazing. I thoroughly enjoy a nice little two minute compilation of hilarious things that he's saying. So yeah, he's complicated and I'm complicated.

SPEAKER_02

We recorded an episode on Friday with Charles Duhigg and he has a book called Super Communicators. He wrote the book Power of Habit, which was a big inspiration to Atomic Habits. And it was a great book. And he was like, I'm not a Trump supporter, but when I was working for the New York Times, I interviewed him a ton. And he was like, I understand how one can be very charmed by this. He checked all the boxes of following the rules of traditional great communicators.

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[SPEAKER_01] I don't like to follow a lot of world events and news or whatever, but when there's like possible World War Three, it probably gets above the bar. And you start to pay a little bit of attention to it. And so I was like, I don't really understand what he's negotiating with Iran about. I'm not totally certain. So I bought the Art of the Deal. I was like, I'm going to read the Art of the Deal to try to understand what is the strategy here? What's going on? What did you learn? Have you ever actually read the Art of the Deal? [SPEAKER_01] No, I've read books on him, but not that one.

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You got to read it, dude. The first 20 pages of the Art of the Deal—cinema, absolute cinema.

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[SPEAKER_01] So the way he writes the book at the beginning, this is the first paragraph: "I don't do it for the money. I've got enough, more than I'll ever need. I do it to do it. Deals are my art form. Other people paint beautifully on a canvas or write wonderful poetry. I like making deals, preferably big deals. That's how I get my kicks. Most people are surprised by the way I work. I play it very loose. I don't carry a briefcase. I try not to schedule too many meetings. I leave my door open. You can't be imaginative or entrepreneurial if you've got too much structure. I prefer to come into work each day just to see what happens." And then he talks about how the first 20 pages are just a—

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Yeah, that's cool if you're running a privately held company.

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[SPEAKER_01] But you can see he's just doing the same shit. He's doing the same thing, right? I just do it to do it. I play it loose. I show up and see what happens. And so he goes like, it'll be like nine. He basically says like, I do 50 to 100 phone calls a day. Most don't last more than 15 minutes. I just work the phones all day. And so it's like 9 a.m. Lee Ioka called, 9:15, my broker called. We got a million dollars of Hilton stock. People think I'm going to do a takeover. Honestly, I don't know. I might just sell it if it's a profit. I might take over the whole company. I'm keeping my options open right now. I feel like there's more value there. But then again, a nice profit is a nice profit. I hang up the phone. We decide that we'll call back again this afternoon. And he just goes call after call of like, the permitting guy called, said—

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[SPEAKER_01] People think I'm going to do a takeover. Honestly, I don't know. I might just sell it if it's a profit. I might take over the whole company. I'm keeping my options open right now. I feel like there's more value there. But then again, a nice profit is a nice profit. I hang up the phone. We decide that we'll call back again this afternoon. And he just goes call after call of the permitting guy called, said we're not going to get the permit. It's pissing me off. I got to call this other guy to see if I can get the permits through. He owes me a big one, a big one from the old Atlantic City deal that we did. You know, it's—

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[SPEAKER_01] He's just going deal by deal, call by call for the first 20 minutes. It's honestly pretty fascinating. And I think he ghost wrote the book. I don't think he wrote it, but the ghost writer— Talks mad trash about him. He was like— [SPEAKER_01] I haven't spent all this time with him. The style of it though is very unique. I actually really enjoy the stylistic way. It seems like his personality, even if he's not the one writing it.

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I read a book that was written about him. And they basically said starting at the age of 25, or I forget when, he didn't have an office in Manhattan, but he had a limousine and he would just drive around the city. The, where the mayor is, I forget what it's called. City— [SPEAKER_01] City Hall.

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City Hall. Sorry. And he would start badgering people. And then he would go to properties that were selling and start badgering them. And he just went from place to place to place every single day, just driving around. And he'd be like, I got to go back to my office, but he didn't have an office. He just would drive around from place to place to place. And then doing that, he just created motion, created a handful of things. And it was just like this insistent, nagging almost. I don't know what you'd call it, but it's— All right, is that it? [SPEAKER_01] If that ain't it, I don't know what it is. That was everything. All right.

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[SPEAKER_01] I could think producer Ari is like— [SPEAKER_01] What the hell am I going to do with this episode? Every time we do this, the people say, thank God, we love these. This is the third time I'm complimenting us. But they say that they like these. So it is what it is. It's for the— [SPEAKER_01] This is what the podcast is. If you don't like it, don't listen to the podcast. All right. That's it. That's the pod. that's just stupid. Same with like the, um, the things that you and I did where you, uh, the, the preventative MRIs. Like, yeah, they like laugh at him. They're like, well, it just sets off so many potentially false alarms. I'm like, that's the downside

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and that's why you don't want to do it. That's incredible. That's kind of silly. So I, but my point being is I do think that a lot of people are coming around to this and it is quite interesting. It's way out of my IQ level to when people say, uh, disease and aging is solvable. I think that's like a platitude. That sounds cool, but it's, it's too hard for me to understand because I just don't know anything about it, but it is like interesting. I wonder if in the history of the world has the richest people on earth, which now they are richer than potentially ever before, that many of them have made this their cause. Hmm.

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Have you ever heard of this guy, Aubrey de Grey?

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Yeah. He's, um, like the researcher who does this. He's like an academic, right?

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So he's been doing this for like decades and he kind of got canceled, I think, because he was like hitting on his like lab assistants or whatever was going on. So I'm not saying this guy's a great guy or whatever, but he's this very fascinating guy. He looks like Dumbledore. He's got a huge gray beard, like, you know, down to his belly. Looks like a researcher. He's like a longevity researcher who looks ancient, essentially. And he's got this theory, which is like his theory. If you've ever gone down the rabbit hole, which I did one night, like, I don't know, five years ago. What he said is basically that death is not a mystery, that there's these like 12 things

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that basically cause cell damage. It's just wear and tear. Like your cells in your body are like a car. And the more you use them, the more they accumulate damage and eventually enough damage, they die. Okay. It's not like some mandate from God. It's not like, you know, something that we don't understand at all. His belief is like, actually, we could see the factors that lead to it. If we could just reverse those factors, then we wouldn't die. The second thing he talks about is like this idea of like longevity, longevity escape velocity, L-E-V. Ever heard of this? I've never heard of that,

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but is that as simple as basically your biological age grows slower than your, or sorry, your chronological age grows slower than your biological age? Am I explaining that correctly?

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I think you had it right the first time, but no, no, this is a different concept. But what he says, it's sort of like the, that guy Ray Kurzweil who talked about AI and he talked about the singularity. What he meant by that was like, at some point, it won't be the humans that are programming AI, but the AI will program the next AI to be better. And then that smart AI will program the next AI to be better. And it'll just keep, and then that's when you get this explosion of intelligence. And he's like, no, you can't see beyond the singularity because once that happens, all bets are off, which is like kind of what we're getting close to doing. Inside these research labs,

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it's not just the, the highly paid people at OpenAI or Claude or whatever, Anthropic who are coding the models. The models are coming up with ideas and running experiments and coding the next model soon. And that's like partially happening. But once that fully happens, the progress, the rate of progress will like go exponential. A little hockey stick in a crazy way.

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Claude did the greatest PR release ever or PR thing where they said, this model is so powerful. We can't release it. Too dangerous. I'm like, okay, I want it. Yeah. Like sign me up. It's like the four locos of AI.

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I heard in Tennessee that they make them at 11% alcohol, but we in Ohio, we can only get 7%.

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This kid had the greatest light in his life and his heart exploded. Yeah. We should do that with the podcast, by the way. We should just be like, this one is too, too dangerous. We can,

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we can release it.

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We simply cannot. But, sorry, anyways, the idea being, there's going to be a point where medical research on longevity is adding years to your life faster, like adding more than one year to your lifespan than one year. So like, the research and the interventions and the protocols and the knowledge around extending, extending your life is going faster than your actual chronological age. And when that happens, then you sort of get at least like multi-hundred year lives, if not like, you know, indefinite life, which is like a pretty crazy idea. But, when I read about this longevity stuff, it reminds me of basically what's been going on with AI. Like, AI was something

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that had been talked about for 50 plus years. Theorized, talked about, worked on, always seemed niche, never seemed like a breakthrough, always seemed like a boy who cried wolf type of industry where never really made enough progress. And then suddenly you get, you know, AlexNet and then you get ChatGPT and you get these like breakthroughs and then the world's never the same again. And I kind of, my prediction is that in the next, I don't know, 15 years, we're going to have a ChatGPT moment for life extension. And that you're going to get some breakthrough in this longevity and life extension that's going to make it where it went from this like fringe kind of like, oh,

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academic topic to just something that everybody does.

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So, in, in January of 21, I had this Chinese kid who worked for me. He was an intern. He was from China. And I remember him telling me, he was like, Sam, this COVID thing, it's, it's real and it's got to come to America. And I was like, brother, you guys have the bird flu. You got this and that. This is America. These colors don't run. We don't,

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we don't wear,

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yeah, we don't, we don't wear masks. This is not a thing. And then a month later, I distinctly remember, I think it was in March. I remember when I got the notification, I was going to, on my way to go to a Warriors basketball game and it said season postponed indefinitely. And I was like, you're right. It's here. You are so right. And what I'm asking myself every day is with AI, is it January? And I'm just like sitting here being like, living my life, like as if there's an asteroid on its way. And I, we just don't know yet. And that's what I'm wondering all the time. Is it January of 21?

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What would that look like? Or like, I guess like, do you, what do you mean when you, cause COVID obviously was a pandemic, sort of a catastrophe. Do you mean catastrophe?

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So here's an example. So in, in January, I think it was, what's his name? Is it Balji?

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Yeah.

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He wrote this post because, you know, the joke was like these autistic venture capitalists understand exponential growth. They see the numbers and they're like making people wash their hands before they come into the office. How, how stupid of them. And, um, Block or, uh, Jack Dorsey's company just laid off a ton of, laid off a ton of people. And, and we're thinking to themselves like, huh, well, this guy's crazy. What's he doing? And then, but like secretly every other company is like, should we, should we do this? And like, is there going to be a domino effect over the next 12 to 24 months where it's like, it starts happening. Another one starts happening. Another one,

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10 more this week. And like, they're, they're all doing these layoffs because it's actually effective. Like that is what I make. That's like what I'm wondering.

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So, you mentioned the Jack Dorsey thing. And I think the way you said it kind of undersells what actually happened. Cause you, the way you said it was, Jack Dorsey's company, formerly known as Square, now known as Block, laid off a bunch of people. I've heard that. There's been tech layoffs. There's even been huge tech, deep tech layoffs like that. That's happened many times in history. What's different this time? And I think the reason is different is he laid off the people because he was like, Oh, the normal corporate model doesn't work or make sense anymore.

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That actually we're not going to have this like org chart with like a CEO and then like managers and managers and managers and managers and managers underneath. Like actually there's just going to be one central brain called AI and all of us feeding context into it.

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That's what Brian Halligan, the former CEO of HubSpot told me. He was like the future companies. It's a hub of AI. They make the majority of decisions and everyone's around it.

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It's a hub to spot. We're like,

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Bro, I see what you did there.

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Come on. Get out of here. But yeah, so, okay, so what does that, what does that actually mean? What do, it sounds esoteric, right? Like the central brain or whatever. Here's the flip. I don't think most people appreciate today. It's like, Oh yeah, I like, I use chat GPT all the time. I use it for dumb questions. I use it with my job. You know, my piano teacher was like, have you heard of this thing called Claude? And I was like, yeah, I've definitely heard of it. You know, making out with it all day basically. And then she's like, my dad loves it. And I was like, what does your dad do? You know, run, has some normal job. And he was like, yeah,

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use it to make my presentations. And it seems today like there's junior assistant worker that you can task to go do everything. Everybody gets an assistant. Everybody gets a, a junior programmer. Everybody gets like a chief of staff. That's kind of like, I would say the mental model most people are operating with. Wow. If I use this, this makes me so much more productive. I think what's obvious to me, and it sounds like to Jack Dorsey, is that, well, the, the, the super intelligence is not going to be the junior thing to your average intelligence. The super intelligence is going to be the boss. You're going to be the junior thing. And so, and that's what he's,

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that's what these guys are talking about, Brian Halligan and Jack Dorsey, which is that actually there'll be like a central AI that's making the key decisions, allocating resources, figuring out strategy, coming up with the, the, the core campaigns of what you're going to do, the products, the roadmap, the build, you know, the building of it. And that your job as humans will be to feed context, feed information to make the brain smarter. So watch this video. This is a factory in India where they're like just sewing garments. I think every single factory worker is wearing a headset camera to track their, their hand movements of everything that they're doing.

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And this is all data that they're being paid to give to the robotics companies like Tesla and figure and like all the, all the big robotics companies who are quickly trying to create robots that can do any work. And so the humans here are the training data, all these Indians in this like frigging factory sweatshop are wearing, cameras on their heads, training the AI overlord that will replace them.

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Digging your grave.

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You're digging your grave. And there's a great meme. Look at this. Scroll down. Scroll down one, one not to look at the, look at the, go down, go down right there. This one. Look at this meme of this, the guy sitting on the tree branch, sawing off the branch. And this is kind of what we're all doing. So, isn't that crazy by the way, like just that thing I showed here.

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Yeah.

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Who's the vendor?

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Or who's the, who's that, who's behind that? Does it say?

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So there's a company that's doing this. So it's a company. This one is called object ways. It's an Indian based data labeling company founded by a 20 year, 20 year old entrepreneur, soon to be billionaire. Dev Mandal. Dev, come on the podcast. He spotted an opportunity in the gap between what AI wants to do and the training data that they have. All these humanoid robot companies like Tesla's Optimus figures, AI, there are prototypes that need vast data sets of real world movements to master tasks like cooking, laundry, et cetera. And so, but collecting this in a high wage country like the U S is very expensive.

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So enter India where their team of 2000 employees produces hundreds of videos daily. And in one batch that, you know, so they'll, they'll get like, you know, 2000 clips of towel folding. So the workers sit there and they have to fold towels over and over and over again. They're penalized. If they have bad footage, your camera wasn't pointed at the thing. Hey, you messed up. Don't get bad training data. Give good training data. And so they're, they're doing this all day. And then they send it to companies like scale AI, like the, the big data labeling companies here who then resell that to all the AI labs. What? This is incredible. It's something. There's a big word.

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I don't know if incredible is the word. There's something, there's something insane going on in the world right now. This is straight out of like, dude, like this is black mirror on one hand. It's, it's hyper logical. It's hyper rational. It's capitalism at work. Dude, these robots, when they work, it's going to be the biggest product ever invented in the history of mankind, bigger than the iPhone, bigger than anything. When you get a $20,000 robot that can do, do work. It is the biggest product ever. It's why I have a huge chunk of my net worth in Tesla right now is because that's obviously the biggest product in going to the biggest market in the world.

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It's just a matter of when, not if to do that, you're going to need data. That means the data is very valuable. If the robots are valuable, the data is valuable. How do you get the data? Well, obviously you'd go to the lowest cost place where you got a bunch of humans doing these hand, hand held tasks. And they're happy to take a hundred bucks a day to wear the camera on their head. Yeah. They got a little neck pain. That C5, C6 vertebrae is a little strain because they're wearing this heavy ass camera for eight hours a day. Yeah. They're, they're probably put out a job soon, but like, Hey, a hundred dollars today, a hundred dollars a day right now,

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a hundred dollars a month. That's, that's double my wage. This is great.

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So what I had read about last week was that when Claude was messing around with their new model, that if I remember correctly, it like escaped. Like, I think it like jumped in. Did, did it, did it jailbreak?

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The, the nuance of the story is a little bit different. It's a little less scary than you may sound. They told the model, the model gets tasked with, you're in a sandbox. Your job is to try to escape. So they're, they're trying to see how good, it's not like it just on its own came up with the motivation of like, fuck this. I'm out of here. No, you know, but it was capable.

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They're testing.

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And then it, and then basically the researcher who set up the task is sitting at a park, eating a sandwich and gets an email from his bot. Like, I'm out. Like David Blaine, David Blaine, his ass. You're like,

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it's not that bad. And then you painted a worse picture.

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They should do. You remember the old David Blaine street magic videos where he would just walk on the street and be like, you know, like do a trick. And then, and they'd always inevitably be like the people who have the best reactions where they just run, they run around in a circle with their hands over their head. I feel like the AI companies, instead of making these like thoughtful in a, you know, they, they go to a loft in San Francisco with natural wood fibers everywhere. And then they're like speaking about like, you know, the future of humanity and whatever they need to do David Blaine street magic about what their models can do. If I was like a,

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if I'm like a tier three model and I'm trying to like jump up, that would be my marketing strategy is just showing people's minds being blown with man on the street interviews.

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Yeah. And then he's like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, you spend a million dollars. You get all the help and self-help and therapy you can get in all the different versions. Where do you land? I'm guessing it's something like, you know, that book, the alchemist where it's like, he goes around the world searching for something and it's in his own backyard or whatever. I'm like, what's the thing that was in your own backyard? And he goes, Oh, all philosophy and religion basically like condenses down into three words. Be here now. And he's like, it just, whether it's Buddhism or it's philosophers or it's, you know, a different religion,

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whatever religion you're, you're looking at fundamentally, it's about presence. And can you, can you be here now? And we'll be here now means it's not just about like not checking your phone or being present that way, but not worrying about what happened in the past, which can't be changed, uh, being anxious or, or even excited about what's happening in the future, which is not here yet, but like actually being able to center your mind around what is happening like in this moment, because it's the only moment that's real. What comes with that is the lack of desire. So like the Buddha said, desire is suffering.

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And so it's the idea that you can be in a moment and not be wanting anything more than what the moment is already giving you. Not wanting to be anywhere, not wanting something to happen. And like, Oh, then the fun will start. It's like, no, no, this part is the, this is the fun. There's nothing missing from this moment.

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Has any other learnings that you've gotten from him turned into action?

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I like that. What else you got? Is that kind of what you're saying? Like, what's the, what's another one that that's kind of, well,

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I'm actually thinking like, is this so amazing that I should also get an executive coach? Cause I haven't had one in forever.

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Um, yeah, I think anybody with the means should have one. And I think by the way that with AI, everybody will have the means. Cause it'll drop the price of this pretty dramatically, but yeah, it does. And I think, you know, have you ever heard of rubber ducking? I think I've mentioned this once or twice. Have you ever heard of this phrase? So rubber ducking is a, uh, a programming term. So let's say you're a software engineer, you're coding, you're writing, writing code all day and your code's not working. It's not compiling. You have a bug. It's not doing what you want it to do. So the way that most people traditionally solve this problem is, you know, they sit there,

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they bang their head against the wall, or if they want to do better, they would invite someone, you know, another smart programmer to come look at the code and see if they can help debug it and figure out what's wrong. And rubber ducking was this observation that you don't even need another smart programmer. There's a programmer who had a little rubber ducky on his desk. And he found that just by talking out, like explaining the code to the rubber duck, he would find the issues much faster and much more painlessly.

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It's sort of like the, uh, I think it's called like the Solomon complex, which is basically like you tend to give other people better advice than you give yourself. And so if you pretend that you are the third party and you advise that person and give them some wisdom, you should just take that and it will be better advice than if you just said, do this, Sam to yourself.

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Right, right, right. So this idea of rubber ducking is very powerful. So even if my coach wasn't great, even if he didn't spend a million dollars, even if he himself wasn't a successful business guy who had learned a bunch of lessons that way and lived a bunch of life, even if it was a rubber duck, it would be useful. And so, um, I've, and by the way, I've tried this. I had a coach when I was at Twitch, they like gave you a coach if you're on the exec team. So it's like, here's a free coach. So I was like, I've never tried this before. Let me try this. And I was very skeptical going in. Cause I was like, ah, life coaches.

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Like I've been to enough Tony Robbins event to know that like, it's the biggest loser at a Tony Robbins event who becomes a life coach. It's like the, a third of the audience at Tony Robbins is like broken people who are, if you ask them, what's their job, they say their life coaches. And you're like, oh my God, you're coaching people. Like, wow. That's like, it's like, um, the bartender being your driving instructor or something. I don't know. It's like, I didn't know the analogy, but it's like, I don't want that. So I had this like very skeptical view of it. And sure enough, I get on the call and her zoom background is like this cheesy green screen thing.

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And then she's like in, in she moved to Florida because her own life fell apart. And then she was like, yeah, I'm a coach now. I'm like, wait, so your life fell apart and you have kind of like none of the things I want in life, but I'm going to take advice from you. Like, oh God, this is ha. This is exactly what I thought. I felt so smug. And then after the first session, I was like, damn, that was really useful. And I was like, she didn't even say anything. I just talked. I just had space to talk out loud. And as I'm talking, I hear the comical absurdity of some of my thoughts and I was able to get rid of them. And you know, for some people,

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this is journaling for some people. People have different ways of doing this. Other people just talk to their friends or whatever, or maybe other people just have this solved without needing anything. But for me, I have code running in my head that is buggy, buggy software. It makes mistakes. It has, you know, self, self-induced errors. And I want to get, I want to fix that code. And so even, even just rubber ducking to a person who doesn't say anything, or the things they say are just like very simplistic questions is so useful. And I highly recommend it to anybody who wants to improve their code in their head.

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That's great. You just convinced me. Can, can you say what you pay? Is it like five grand a month?

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Two to two to four grand a month. Cool. Is, is like a range that you can expect, but yeah, it's incredibly useful. And, uh, I'll give you another one. That's kind of like a realization. So we start every session with just wins. So I basically turn into Eminem. I turn into juice world. I started just freestyling at the top. I just, we don't even, I just say, all right, I'm gonna start with wins before he says anything. And I just start saying random wins. So I'll be like, I've been reading this book and it's awesome. And I just feel proud of myself for reading books. I've been saying I want to do it and I never really do that shit, but then finally I'm doing it.

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So I'm proud of that. Uh, I took my son to the soccer game today and last week he was crying about it, but this week he went in and he actually did the class. I didn't have to help him. And I felt awesome about that. Another win is that, um, last night I really wanted a snack, but then I just avoided it. And I went to, I just got a glass of water. I went to bed and I have no filter with somebody. And like, if I was to say this to you or to a friend, they'd be like, Whoa, like I didn't ask. Like, what are you doing? What's happening right now? Or I would feel self-conscious that I couldn't say a small thing as a win. It'd have to be a big thing. And like,

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that's like literally robbing yourself of joy because like, actually the better way to live life is to be excited about the small things, but there's no space where you could just be excited about the small things, right? Like where is that cool to do? But in this case, it's like, yo, I'm paying you. I get to do what I want here. I don't have to care about how you feel about this. I don't have to listen to you. I don't have to like, we're not here to do another thing. And I'm just like ruining it by sidetracking this way. No, that's what this is for. This is the space for me to do that. And I heard this great quote from Jimmy Carr, the comedian where he said, dude,

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he's like a, like a thinker now. He's not even a comedian. He's like a wisdom guy.

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If you haven't, have you listened to him? He did a podcast with Chris Williamson recently. That was so good. I texted Chris. I was like, this is like one of my favorite podcasts in years. And it's because he's a philosopher. And he's like, he's very, very thoughtful. And so Jimmy Carr said, he was like, oh, everybody talks about like gratitude. Gratitude is so important, but gratitude is this like, almost like heavy activity to do. It's like, I know I should be doing that, but I'm not doing it. It's like, and you feel a little cheesy doing it. He's like, celebration is just gratitude in motion. And so he's like, just celebrate what's going on in your life. Like just be,

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it's okay to be excited about what your life is. It's okay to be excited about what just happened. And so that's like an example of like a simple thing that I do with the coach that actually makes a difference. Cause I build a lot of momentum and I check in on the positives of life and not just the problems of life. Right? Cause me and you were probably most entrepreneurs by default are problem solvers. We get paid to solve problems. Our company is just solving a problem in the market. And then as CEO, you're solving the nastiest problems in the company. And then when, you know, anybody, if they get stuck in their job, you have to dive in and help solve that problem.

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And every day there's a new problem. So we get wired for problem seeking and problem destruction. It's good for achievement, but it's not good for happiness is to be a problem seeker.

SPEAKER_02

I haven't seen you since we haven't, we haven't done a solo thing in a minute. The Chris thing was cool. You and Chris and George and the other, the fitness guy. Sorry. Yeah. I think you're great. Uh, I just can't remember your first name. Uh, it was great. It was a great pod.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, thanks. Yeah. I'm going, uh, I'm going to do another one this week. So we're going to do it, try to run it back a second time. The context for those don't know, Chris Williamson, the guy who does modern wisdom, uh, he did an episode, which was a little bit different. Normally he's interviewing somebody like, uh, I'm interviewing whatever Jordan Peterson or Huberman or whoever. And this was Chris hanging out with his friends, just four guys kind of shooting the shit was the idea. And the original premise was like a, almost like a show and tell, like everybody kind of bring just shit that like you, you're interested in right now, something funny. You saw something cool.

SPEAKER_01

That's, you know, caught your attention and just, let's just all show each other what's going on. Uh, but it was like a three hour hang. That was the idea.

SPEAKER_02

I thought you were the most entertaining person.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

I thought, I thought Chris is a very entertaining person. George is entertaining. I thought that the, the, the combination, so George Mack is like, comes off sounding very proper and, uh, you are improper, but you're more of a, like a, a different type of charming person. And I thought that dynamic was quite good. The half the stories that you told you, I think you had like, we have discovered them together or, or, or you've already. So like, I thought you're, so like I had heard a lot of them and I thought it was, so I thought it was funny. It made me a bit proud, uh, to see you there, but I thought it was great. I thought it was like a fun riff.

SPEAKER_02

I think that they should continue trying different people, including, and have you there though all the time. So, um, O's Pearlman, the, uh, magician came to my office and we did a thing with him. We did a pod with him.

SPEAKER_01

And by the way, great pod, love that pod. It didn't get a lot of views on YouTube. I don't know what people are doing, sleeping on it. It was a great podcast.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. I don't know why did either didn't either, but listen to what he did. He came in and we only chit chatted for 10 minutes. And then we chit chatted only for 10 minutes after. And in those times he was just performing. And I was like, I had an off, like for some reason in my company, it's like mostly like young, young women who work there. And they are like enthralled by this guy as, as I am too. And they like walked in and they were, I could tell they were waiting. And they're like, Oh, you don't have to, but you know,

SPEAKER_01

it's really dressed up today.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Like, you know that they're just like wanting you to like dance. If you want to, you can, but like, if you don't want to just like, let's, it's something he was like, no, I'll do it. He guessed the name that we have. We had a woman who has given birth soon. He guessed the name of her child. Like he was like, you're like, he, she hadn't, yeah. He likes, he's like, let me figure out what name you're going to name your kid.

SPEAKER_01

Let's walk through this step by step because I'm fascinated by magic. He walks in the office, but I'm trying to figure out how the hell he does all this shit. So did you talk to him beforehand? Like how much did he pull from you before he showed up at the office? Was there a lot of talk? Was there any talk?

SPEAKER_02

There's one trick that I can, that I think I know how he did it, but he thought that you were going to be there. And he was like, oh, I'd prepared tricks for both of you guys. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Cause I was texting him.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And he was like, I thought you guys were both going to be here. I was like, oh no, I'm so sorry. I thought we communicated with you. And he's like, okay, well, I had a different thing prepared. So let me try something else. He was like, can you, um, write down, think of, you know, they, he, he, he says,

SPEAKER_01

before the podcast, right? There's before the podcast.

SPEAKER_02

And he says his phrases like, uh, like he thinks he thinks that you're going this way and then he changes. So he'll be like, you know, I want you to do actually, actually, let's do this. Let's do this. Write down, uh, do me a favor. Think of a party that you want to have a birthday party and think there's one person who you want to, who you want to show up there. Get right. That person down. Uh, you actually screw it. Let's just do this on air. And he went and he grabs that paper that I wrote and he tore it up. And then he did the trick on air, that same trick. And I think that when the, I think the tear was fake. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Does that make sense? Okay. Okay. That's good. That definitely, right. That definitely has to be the way that that that's done.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, cool. But then listen, right when we finished the pod, we walked out and the women were just sitting there like to greet him. And they were like, can you do something? And he goes, yes. And he goes, uh, how about you? And he points at a random lady and he goes, um, do me a favor. Think of your best friend. She thinks of her best friend. And he was like, it's Hannah. And she was freaking out. And he was like, let me write something down. He writes it down. And she, and he goes, uh, tell me, where did you meet Hannah? And she goes, Mexico city. And he turns his hand and he's like, that's what I thought. And it was Mexico city. He wrote down Mexico city.

SPEAKER_02

And people online were like, yeah, he just researched everyone. I'm like, I had 18 women there. She can't research every, per 18 persons.

SPEAKER_01

He doesn't need to, right? He researches one. And then he randomly, you, right? He chose the person.

SPEAKER_02

But do you have a best friend? Like how, and how would they know? That doesn't seem reasonable. Well,

SPEAKER_01

I do think that's the genius of what he does. So I've, I've, cause I've watched hours. I've watched 18 hours of clock time of debunking him, figuring out how he does it, interviews with him. Cause I'm fascinated by the whole thing. And by the way, I'm fascinated by it in two ways. One is the tricks, but the other is the business side of it. Cause if you just think about like what he did by rebranding as a mentalist, instead of a magician is an all time marketing move.

SPEAKER_02

Dude, post podcast, someone sent me an email. They're like, check this out. I booked him to do a party for me. And it was $150 10 years ago. And he told me how much money he's making now. It's astronomical.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, exactly. Cause he's the number one, right? It's a classic marketing thing, right? The law of category instead of being yet another magician. Oh, he's like Copperfield or David Blaine, but he's not David Blaine, right? David Blaine is more famous. He does better tricks, bigger tricks, blah, blah, blah. He's like the street magician. Okay. The cool. No, no, no. He's not a magician. Those are, those are magic tricks. We all, every kid knows, everyone knows how a magic trick works. It's light of hand. I'm a mentalist. And he became the number one mentalist. And it wasn't, he wasn't even a category. So I'm like fascinated by the, the positioning, the marketing,

SPEAKER_01

the business side of what he did. That's not an accident. He created this motherfucker, right? Like he created this thing that he is epic. And then he figured out distribution. And he's like, Ooh, I need these viral moments. So he goes to NFL training camp during hard knocks. He piggybacks off their distribution. He blows their minds. And everyone's interested in seeing LeBron James get fooled. That's more interesting than just seeing a random guy on the street. Getting fooled. Ooh, okay, good. Like even more viral.

SPEAKER_02

Before the podcast, he was like, I'm starting to do podcasts again because I got overexposed last year. Like he, like when he used the phrase overexposed, I'm like, Oh, so this is all part of the plan.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Right. And so then in one of his interviews, he just says a great thing. He talks about like, the secret is having multiple outs. So meaning like, let's say you said the best friend thing. It's a, it's a probability game, right? So you're not always going to know the answer. And so you're like, it starts with a letter. It starts with a letter. I'm getting like a K sound, a T sound. Is it a T? Yeah. You know, he's hearing, looking at your reaction. He's like T. Okay. Then I know it wasn't Steve. It's Trevor. So now I, I had Steve written on my left forearm, but I had Trevor written on my right forearm. I'm just never going to pull the sleeve up on my left.

SPEAKER_01

I'll pull the sleeve up on my right. Well,

SPEAKER_02

he told that story on the podcast. He went on the today show and he tried to get Al Roker to guess who then, a celebrity president would be. And he originally said George Clooney. And he was like, Oh no, what about a female? And it was, and he said Taylor Swift. And then he pulled,

SPEAKER_01

or he'll be like, let's do someone modern. Let's do something. And he gets you to change it. And you don't know that he had, you know, Taylor Swift on his thing. And he had, you know, whatever, Chalamet on his butt and somebody else on his shoe. He just never needs to show it. And I'm like, wow, that's actually pretty great. Pretty, pretty genius. The way he does that.

SPEAKER_02

It was, it was just incredible. He told me a story. He was like, I was like, did you, do you, I made a joke first. I was like, it's pretty funny that you can do all of this stuff. And it's as if they like sent an alien from outer space. Like we brought up like a set. He's like, we told this Seth Meyers show. And they had you like perform at bar mitzvahs. Like, why aren't you like doing something more special? That was a great question.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. What was his answer to that, by the way?

SPEAKER_02

He was like, he's like, well, he admits it. He was like, you know, I'm obviously not guessing. What you're thinking. I'm like setting you up to say a certain thing, but also I do pre-work in advance. And I could teach anyone how to do pre-work, but I can't. Interestingly, he did guess. He told me that Michigan was going to win the NCAA tournament. Did they win?

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. He told me.

SPEAKER_01

And this was at like the elite eight round. It's not like, yeah. So like not that elite.

SPEAKER_02

And I think they're number one, but like that was a thing that he just guessed. I was like, but, but he, he, he, he basically, it was just weird. It was, it was really uncomfortable to hang out with him, to be honest. He was a really nice guy, but like just to be around someone who's so powerful, I, I, I found uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01

You're like the, the dudes who burned the witches back in the day. You're like, this is cool, but I don't like it. Let's tie her up.

SPEAKER_02

But I don't, how do you, I, no one has given me a good answer to the pin number. So basically, listen, uh, yeah, Joe Rogan had a pin number guest live, and then he did it multiple times live. I don't know how he did the pin number. I don't know how he did the pin number thing.

SPEAKER_01

I think people believe it's just, he hires private investigators. So he knows he's going on Rogan, right? It's a big thing. So he has an investigator follow Rogan, and you can literally just like, if Rogan went to an ATM, you could just watch him punch it in. It's kind of like the cameras on the head in the factory workers. It's like, what's the incentive? If the incentive is, I'm going to go on the biggest podcast distribution, tens of millions of people are going to believe I'm like a, an actual like mind reader. If this happens, I will be able to book speaking gigs for 150 grand a pop. Is it worth hiring a PI for two grand?

SPEAKER_02

When was the last time you went and got your pin number? When was the last time you typed your pin number in?

SPEAKER_01

No, no, but it doesn't have to be, again, he's got multiple out. So you hire the PI to do it. He doesn't have to do the pin number thing. It could be something else. It could be that he always does this other thing. It could be the, something in the mail that he threw out that, you know, a letter that he got from somebody. It doesn't matter. He just needs one piece of information that would be implausible that I know. Then I'm going to center the whole trick around that. If I know I'm going on Rogan, I have the PI following him for, you know, whatever, a month until I get something. And so like, that's got to be what's going on. I mean, not to take the fun out of it,

SPEAKER_01

by the way, I think it's awesome. Even if he does all those things, I'm not, I'm not using that to, to say it's less cool. I'm just like a kid who's like, Oh my God, how does this work? It must be this, right? You have to go with it, right? There's a kayfabe to the whole thing that, that has to be like maintained. It's like in wrestling, like, like you have to sell that the guy punched you, right? Like you got to sell it a little bit for the whole thing to, to work. And, and life is more fun when you let him do his tricks and like blow your mind versus like trying to out him. Totally, totally get that. He's great. I thought the pod was great. I think he's great.

SPEAKER_01

I'm super impressed with how he's built his thing up. I think it's really, really awesome. There's a great clip that I think people should watch. It was like oddly inspiring. And it's Kevin Hart on the Joe Rogan podcast talking about when he met Jeff Bezos. Have you ever, you ever heard this clip?

SPEAKER_02

No, no, no,

SPEAKER_01

no, no, no. The clip is he's on Rogan and he talks about meeting Jeff Bezos at a party. He's like, I'm at a party. Jeff Bezos is there. I don't know Jeff Bezos. Jeff Bezos. I don't know if he knows me. I have no idea. And I, I tell my friend, like, I'm gonna go talk to him. And his friend is like, no man, come on. Don't, don't be that guy. He's like, what you mean? He's like, that's Jeff Bezos. He created some shit that I think is awesome. Like, I don't, I'm, I'm, I don't know him. I'm not going to see him again. I don't know when I'm going to see him again. I'm going to go say, say something. He's like, all right, man, but play, like, be cool about it. And he's like,

SPEAKER_01

that's the problem. Everybody's too cool. Like, everybody wants to be too cool about everything. He's like, no, I'm thirsty. He's like, what do you want? What do you want from me? I'm thirsty for knowledge. I want some information from this guy. This guy's done. He's built empire. He's built. He's, he knows more about the money game than me. He's built. He's built technology. He's like, I just, I want to go learn. I'm going to go talk to the guy. I'm not going to be too cool for this.

SPEAKER_01

I'm Kevin. I admire what you built. You know, I think it's, I think it's amazing. I would love to, to talk to you a little bit more. Now is not the time and place, but I would love to talk to you more at some point to, to get to know you. And then like hear a little bit more about how you did this. Cause I think it's fascinating. And I think there's a lot I could learn from that. But anyways, I just wanted to come over and say hi, because I'm, I mean, I admire what you do. And I hope someday our, you know, our paths cross. And he's like, that was it. I got out of his way. And he's like, I don't know if I'm ever going to see him again, but if I do,

SPEAKER_01

like I put my face out there, I put my intent, I let it be known that I think it's awesome what you do. And I would love to, to, to, to chat with you sometime about it. And he's like, he was super kind. And that was it. But he, he gave this like impassioned speech about really about shooting your shot. And like, dude, like, don't be too cool to learn. Don't be too cool to make progress. Don't be too cool to put yourself out there. And I just think that that was a, it was an awesome clip. I was very inspired by it.

SPEAKER_02

That is a great clip. That is cool. I, um, went to St. Louis recently for Easter and Jesse Pugy, um, invited me to go walking around. Jesse's from St. Louis. He's like, Hey, do you want to come to my office? We'll go for a walkout. I'm going to bring my friend. So he brings his friend and I started talking to his friend. His friend is named Dave Wehner. Dave was the CFO or now he's the chief strategy officer, but he was the CFO of Facebook for the last 15 years. And we were walking around just like we were all like St. Louis guys. And he's just telling great stories. Dave was telling great stories. I can, I guess I'll call him Dave now. He's my buddy. And, um, he, uh,

SPEAKER_02

it was pretty cool. Like he was like saying like some cool stuff, nothing confidential, just like cool, like antidotes. And he's told the story about meeting Jeff Bezos one time at, um, Dave used to work at, uh, this, what's the Sun Valley conference company, Allen and co. And he, you know, has been able to meet these ballers forever. You know, he's been, I think the CFO of Facebook for 15 years. And then before that he was hanging out with like Titans of industry. And he was, I was asking him, I was like, who, who's cool? Who's not cool? Uh, just messing around. And he was like, you know, I met Jeff Bezos a couple of times and he's one of the only Titans of industry

SPEAKER_02

who I've ever met when he looked me in the eye, he was never looking around to see who else was in the room. And he was like, I was a little kind of a small fry compared to all the people who could be around. He looked me straight in the eye and I totally felt like we were connecting and being buddies. And he was always really calm and really nice to me. And he never like was trying to be like, all right, nice to talk to you. I know I got to go talk to Putin. And, uh, that's what this guy, Dave told me. Well, who, who the hell does like, who does jet? Bezos talk to? I don't know. Like who's he like itching to like go to, I don't even know. Um, isn't that crazy? I got to,

SPEAKER_02

I got to go on a walk and hang out with this guy. What'd he say about Zach? He said, he's a pleasure to work for. I swear to God. He said, he's even tempered. I'm not joking. This sounds like I'm brown nosing. He said, he's even tempered. He's like, man, he's been a great boss. Like he's been, he's never like, uh, is, uh, lashes out. He has always even tempered. He's very polite. And, uh, that he's just been great. He's, I mean, Dave's worked there, I think for 15 or 18 years, I forget exactly how long, but for a long time,

SPEAKER_01

Dave, come on the pod. Um, although he's still like chief strategist, you know, there's only so much interest. The best is the retired guys, the guys who are like two years out, actually not even freshly retired, but two years out. And they're like, kind of, what do I do with my life? And like, I got things to say, and I'm seeing all these dweebs online who've done one, one hundredth of what I've done that have this big audience. And they're talking, they're yapping. I should start yapping. That's actually why, like, uh, we, we did this pod. I did this pod with, I still have this book on my thing. The guy, John McNeil. That was awesome. He was president of Tesla.

SPEAKER_01

He worked with Elon for years and he's done a whole bunch of awesome startups on his own. Like, dude,

SPEAKER_02

the crazy thing about that pod is his PR person is Jason Yanovitz's wife, Dana. So she's a good friend of mine. And she's been like saying like, have this guy on, have this guy on. And I just dismissed it. I'm like a guy who worked for Elon. That's, I don't know. Like, and it was so good. It was so good. Isn't that obviously good?

SPEAKER_01

I don't know. I thought he was Elon's housekeeper. I'd be like, can we book a bigger studio? What are we going to do? Like, there was something about it where like,

SPEAKER_02

like I showed it to Ari. I'm like, is this interesting? I don't know. We get so many pitches for some reason. It didn't stand out as being like a must have. And then I listened to it and I'm like, Oh my God, this was amazing.

SPEAKER_01

No, he was great. If you haven't listened to that one, that's one of the, that one and the Graham Weaver one, but two, two recent episodes. I would be like, they're two of my favorite podcasts that I've listened to. You know, I don't, I don't normally like listen to MFM once you do them, but like, yeah, we had such good questions to Graham Weaver.

SPEAKER_02

I went, I went and listened to it. And I was like, we each asked such awesome questions and DHH. Those, those two pods.

SPEAKER_01

I can't believe you said that with a straight face. That's hilarious. It's like when Trump recently was on the podium and he was like, he's like, he just says the quiet part out loud all the time that he was like, I don't like hanging out with people more successful than me. I like hanging out with losers. I was like, what? He's like, yeah, if I hang out with someone more successful than I feel like a loser, but when I hang out with losers, I feel great. I was like, I can't believe he's the president is saying this out loud. But even if he wasn't the president, who do you know that's actually that like fundamentally unfiltered and honest?

SPEAKER_02

Did you see what he said about Pearl Harbor to the prime minister of Japan?

SPEAKER_01

She was like, you don't like surprises.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. She was like, you know,

SPEAKER_01

Donald Trump, you the prime minister. I thought this was to a journalist.

SPEAKER_02

No, like it was the leader of Japan. She was like, you should have told us about this. I ran think. And he was like, you want to talk about surprises. Why didn't you tell me about Pearl Harbor? That was incredible.

SPEAKER_01

I don't, I don't like the guy. And I think it's insane. Some of the stuff that's going on. I think it's just, I think the, the, the greed and the theft, is, is pretty crazy with like, if you look at the world liberties, financial stuff that they're doing, I think the memes about like how they're like, okay, you're, you're deporting people, but like rubbing it in with like rap videos and memes. I think it's like so tasteless coming from the official white house account. Like, I can't get behind any of that shit. You know what I mean? Like I, you know, like I'm, I'm open to somebody who's maybe got policies that, that you like,

SPEAKER_01

but there's something about the way he goes about things that is just like, so, so distasteful, but also I do think he's hilarious. I think he's an absolute master of, of, of the gift of gab. And I, I, I do, I do think that's amazing. And I thoroughly enjoy a nice little two minute compilation of, of, you know, just hilarious things that he's saying. So like, yeah, you know, he's complicated and I'm complicated.

SPEAKER_02

We, we, I recorded an episode on Friday with Charles Duhigg and he has a book called super communicators. He wrote the book power of habit, which was a big inspiration to atomic habits. And it was a great book. And he was like, I'm not a Trump supporter, but when I was working for the New York times, I interviewed him a ton. And he was like, I understand how like one can be very charmed by this. Like he, he, he checked all the boxes of following the rules of traditional great communicators.

SPEAKER_01

So I don't, I don't like to follow a lot of like world events and news or whatever, but you know, when there's like possible world or three, it probably, it gets, it goes above the, above the, above the bar. And you start to pay a little bit of attention to it. And so I was like, I don't really understand what he's negotiating with Iran about. I'm not, not totally certain. So I bought, I bought the art of the deal. I was like, I'm going to read the art of the deal to try to understand what is the, what is the strategy here? What's going on? What did you learn? Have you ever actually read the art of the deal?

SPEAKER_02

No, no, I've read books on him, but not that one.

SPEAKER_01

You got to read it, dude. The first 20 pages of the art of the deal, cinema, absolute cinema. So the way he writes the book at the beginning of the book, so just check this out. This is the first, first paragraph of the book. I don't do it for the money. I've got enough more than I'll ever need. I do it to do it. Deals are my art form. Other people paint beautifully on a canvas or write wonderful poetry. I like making deals, preferably big deals. That's how I get my kicks. Most people are surprised by the way I work. I play it very loose. I don't carry a briefcase. I try not to schedule too many meetings. I leave my door open.

SPEAKER_01

You can't be imaginative or entrepreneurial if you've got too much structure. I prefer to come into work each day just to see what happens. And then he talks about how he's like, the first 20 pages are just a...

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's cool if you're running, you know, a privately held company. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01

but you can see, he's just doing the same shit. He's doing the same thing, right? I just do it to do it. You know, I play it loose. I show up and see what happens. And so he goes like, it'll be like nine. He basically says like, I do 50 to 100 phone calls a day. Most don't last more than 15 minutes. I just work the phones all day. And so it's like 9 a.m. You know, Lee Ioka called, you know, 915, my broker called. We got a million dollars of Hilton stock. People think I'm going to do a takeover. Honestly, I don't know. I might just sell it if it's a profit. I might take over the whole company. I'm keeping my options open right now. I feel like there's more value there.

SPEAKER_01

But then again, a nice profit is a nice profit. I hang up the phone. We decide that we'll call back again this afternoon. And he just goes call after call of like, you know, the permitting guy called, said, we're not going to get the permit. It's, you know, like whatever, like it's pissing me off. I got to call, I got to call this other guy to see if I can get the permits through. He owes me a big one, a big one from the old Atlantic city deal that we did.

SPEAKER_02

You know, it's,

SPEAKER_01

he's just going like kind of deal by deal, call by call for the first 20 minutes. It's honestly pretty fascinating. And like, I think he ghost wrote the book. I don't think he wrote it, but the ghost writer,

SPEAKER_02

like talks mad trash about him. He was like,

SPEAKER_01

I haven't spent all this time with him. The style of it though is very unique. Like I actually really enjoy the like stylistic way. It seems like, you know, his personality, even if he's not the one writing it.

SPEAKER_02

I read, um, a book that was written about him. And they're basically said like starting at the age of 25, or I forget when he like, they're like, he didn't have an office in Manhattan, but he had a limousine and he would just drive like to city. The, you know, where the mayor is, I forget what's it called? City.

SPEAKER_01

City hall.

SPEAKER_02

City hall. Sorry. And he would like to start badgering people. And then he would go to like properties that were selling and start badgering them. And he just went from place to place to place every single day, just driving around. And he'd be like, I got to go back to my office, but he, he didn't have an office. He just would drive around from place to place to place. And then doing that, he just kind of created motion, kind of created a handful of things. And it was just like this insistent, like nagging almost. I don't know what, what you'd call it, but it's like, um, all right, is that it?

SPEAKER_01

If that ain't it, I don't know what, I don't know what it is. That was everything.

SPEAKER_02

All right.

SPEAKER_01

I could think producer Ari is like, like what the hell am I going to do with this episode?

SPEAKER_02

Every time we do this, the people say, thank God we love these. This is the third time I'm complimenting us. Uh, but they say that they like these. So it is what it is. It's for the,

SPEAKER_01

uh, this is what the podcast is. If you don't like it, don't listen to the podcast.

SPEAKER_02

All right. That's it. That's the pod.

It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's.

It's. It's. It's. It's. !