Let me start with a story Jimmy Buffett told us. And we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away. And for us, it was an opportunity to ask an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in the business side of his empire, which was Margaritaville. And at the time, he was towards the end of his life. And he was like, I'm building retirement communities that are for my fans. So if you're 80 years old, but you don't want to go to some shitty retirement home, you want to go to the Margaritaville experience retirement home. I'm always serving my fans and always thinking about businesses that are extensions of who I am.
And so, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side or founder side or operating side, the more we felt comfortable about a lot of the things that made people great in those spaces were things that were inherently things that made us successful in music. Alex, I am incredibly excited to be here with you today. I've been looking forward to this, and I know you're really busy and you're juggling two whole businesses, which I'm excited to talk to you about. So thank you for making time for this. Yeah, this is stoked. I'm a big, big fan. I was saying earlier, I've listened to literally every episode except for the last one yet.
It means a lot. I want to start with music, and I love music. I'm obviously mega amateur about it, but I've been a huge fan of your music for a long time, and I always think it's really interesting to learn about the creation of songs. I love watching some of my favorite artists talk on YouTube about how songs came together. Yeah. And so I want to just go through a couple of my favorite songs. Yeah, let's do it. Just hear about, I was just, we just did a photo shoot yesterday with this amazing creative director, Aiden, and he's shot so many of the creative campaigns around all of these artists that I'm a huge fan of and fashion stuff.
And it's so funny talking to him because he gives you this, they give you this unfiltered perspective where you're like, wow, that photo turned out really good. And you're like, there was a zebra on set, you know what I mean? And the zebra almost killed Travis Scott. Yeah, totally. And then you're like, whoa, you should start a show that just talks about this stuff. Well, it's been so foreign to people. I mean, because you hear a song that's just a premium song and you're just like, how the hell does this happen? What totally goes into it? And for most people, you just don't even understand what the process is.
And I don't think there's a single song in existence that doesn't have an insane story, even if it starts out in one day and it's done in one day, there's like eight months that precede it that are insane. Which actually makes you wonder, on that point, before we go into songs, can you create a great song formulaically, or does it need a story? I don't know if it needs a story all the time. Sometimes, lately, Ju and I have just been making songs. We were just like, I love this. This just feels good. I'm not thinking about the narrative of the song so much or the context. It's just like, I love these lyrics. I love how they feel to me, but it's not
rooted in some personal story necessarily. But I do think the creative process is not ever formulaic. The songs never start in the same place or the same way. I think there's creative things you can keep in mind, like how you go into a session and the best ways that you feel like you can get to some level of creativity. But I know we talked about this before at some point, but doing the Chris Martin song, I remember him coming in and he was literally like, Something Just Like This. Yeah. Somebody Just Like This. And he was telling us about his creative process. And he was literally just kind of like, they're just sent down from above. That's crazy.
And I remember standing there being like, what is this dude talking about? We were like, we spend time in the studio and we get the songs done. And then now, five years later, we're like, he was totally right. That's funny. I love Chris Martin. I mean, I think Chris Martin, I think he's a real artist. Yeah. Yeah. Coldplay is obviously, on some level, this mass-produced, for-everybody thing, but he's a real artist. No, I think they're one of the greatest bands ever. Yeah. Obviously, getting to know him and the band and understanding how they operate and work, I mean, it's like nothing short of pure magic and the respect they have.
And the music obviously kind of speaks for itself. But there's so many things that go into consideration when Chris and the band move forward with a song. I went to a Coldplay concert recently, a couple months ago, and I hadn't been to one since I was 17, in high school in St. Louis. And it was awesome then, and it was freaking awesome now. Yeah. And I was just like, the whole place is vibing. Dude, it's insane. Your song comes on, Something Just Like This gets played there. Steadyan's going nuts. I don't know if you've been to a Coldplay concert where you've seen this happen. Yeah. Yeah. And you're just like, this is cool. It's so cool.
And I'm always like, Chris, why can't we go on stage with you? Yeah, get me up there. Yeah. We love to be up there. Why can't you go up there? But I don't know. I mean, I feel like it's always, I think he's offered in the past, and it's like we had our own show somewhere else and stuff. And I think now he's just like, we're just going to do without you guys. He's like, we're good at it. Yeah, we're good. Which is totally fine. And I love when they're on tour. I get videos every day from somebody being like, here's your song we can play. And it's just like, that's the coolest thing. It's like, hey, I'm sleeping and someone else is doing the work.
It's a great, that's why collaborations are awesome. So how did that song happen? Okay. So there's a few parts to it. So, we've been fans of Coldplay forever. I think most electronic artists would say that a Coldplay collaboration is top three artists that we want to work with for so many reasons, because their music kind of lends itself to this electronic energy. His vocals are obviously just incredible, and the band is just iconic. And so they were always on our, if they want to get in the studio, we're so down. And they were not down, I think for most of the time. And then our manager had reached out, and I think they were like, yeah, we'll float it to Chris or
something. But then I think before a show one day, they were listening to Closer backstage, and Chris, I don't know, or the band was like, this is good. This is interesting. I would get, I'm down to get in the studio. I don't think they realized we had already asked. And so literally get a call from their manager, Dave, I'm not sure if he still works with them, and it was just like, Chris is going to be in LA next Tuesday or something, wants to get in the studio, the guy's down. And we were like, I will drop, you will find it in Antarctica. That's what it takes to do this. Went to the studio.
I think it's called the Woodshed in Malibu, which is a beautiful studio, way nicer than any studio we've ever worked in, got there at like 3 PM or something like that. And I think we sat there for like two hours alone with his audio engineer, but we were, and we're This is interesting. I would get, I'm down to get in the studio. I don't think they realized we had already asked. And so last, literally get a call from their manager, Dave. I'm not sure if he still works with them. And it was just like, Chris is going to be in LA next Tuesday or something, wants to get in the studio. The guys down, and we were like, I will drop just, you will find it in Antarctica.
That's what it takes to do this. Went to the studio. I think it's called the Woodshed in Malibu, which is a beautiful studio, way nicer than any studio we've ever worked in. Got there at like 3 PM or something like that. And I think we sat there for like two hours alone with his audio engineer, and we're just kind of waiting. We're like, I don't even want to touch anything. What do we do? Should we start working on our own stuff? Should we get ahead of this song? And then he just walks in, and it's like, there's only a few people on the planet, I feel like, who have that gravity when they walk in. And he just comes in like
a tornado of energy and just was like, Hey guys, what are you working on? Never break up. This is how, and you're just like, hold my 12. Yeah. This is insane. And funny enough, we sat there probably for like four hours, trying different things out, false starts. I think that's a big part of the creative. Like the three of you. Yeah. It's three of us and his sound engineer, who's, I think, been with him, Bill, forever. Shout to Bill. Probably amazing. Yeah. He's a great guy. And he just, I think again, it's like sometimes being in the studio is like having a presence without interrupting anything. And Bill is great at that.
And we're just throwing chords out and lyrics out and different little ideas, and nothing's really sticking. It's like we kind of get started on a melody, and it's like, ah, let's move on. And then eventually he's like, I gotta go put my kids to sleep, pick them, and we're like, that's it. And you're like, we're done here. He's not going to come back. And that sucks. That was our shot at a Coldplay song. And so he leaves, leaves for like three hours, but he's told us he would come back. And we're just kind of like, is he going to come back? He's not out there.
And we were going through stuff. We're like, we've got to find something or do something that, when he comes back. And we found these chords that became Something Just Like This. And we were like, this feels interesting in the context of what a Coldplay Chainsmokers song might sound like. And he finally comes back. Hopefully in this segment right now, we'll play that just like clap. It's just the piano. And it's so good. I mean, it was not complex by any stretch. And Chris comes back, and you kind of feel like he's also like, we've got to get something. And we play him these chords, and he's like, that's good. I like that.
He just was like, give me a mic. Literally grabs a mic and dances around what would be the size of this backyard. And you guys are just together. He's dancing. We're sitting there, almost like the energy is like, don't move. And it's like, if we move, we're going to disturb what's happening right now. And he literally lays down what is probably like 80% of the core of the song. And the lyrics come to him just naturally. Literally, he's just stumbling over each lyric, and then progressively, it's just pouring out of him, probably in like an hour. And we're just like, holy shit. Wow. We have a Coldplay song, and we were all so jacked up. I mean,
Could you have given him that beat before you had met him? Or did you need that session with him to get that progression? I think we needed that session. I know there's plenty of collaborations that happen over email and digitally. And I don't think you can't have success that way. But I think he wanted to get to know who we were. We wanted to get to know who he was. I mean, for us, just getting in the studio with him and being a part of that was one of my life's greatest moments. And I think it was important to understand what he wanted to sing about, what thematically was speaking to him.
We could have sent him 40 beats, but would he actually listen to them? Would he have had the intention and focus as he went through them? And I think the energy in the room had built up over the course of this day where there was pressure, but also this expectation where we were just like, we're going to get it. It's kind of like willing it into existence. So I think we always try to get in the room with people, but you also can get in the room with people and recognize quickly that it's like, this is not meant to be. So it's scary in that way. Yeah. You mentioned Closer during that, which is another really great collaboration. How'd that one happen?
That one's a really crazy one. So we were on tour in Illinois on our Friend Zone tour, which was one of our first bus tours ever. Yeah. This is when, like 20- This is probably like 2015 or something like that. And on this tour, there's this great artist who's still around, Lewis the Child. And after every show, we had set up a really shitty production room in the back of our tour bus. So we'd be kind of drunk and tipsy or whatever, and we'd be like, after the show, everyone's like pile into the bus and kind of blast music and dance. And in the back, people were always, we'd be writing songs, producing things.
And we hadn't really, Lewis the Child was on like three or four shows with us, and we were big fans of theirs. And we were like, let's get in the back and work on something. And Drew had essentially, this song had been floating around in his head for like two or three years. He had these chords that his hands, as he would say, always just landed on the piano. And I think any piano player says that. There's just certain chords your hands gravitate to where you sit down, and they were the Closer chords. And he kind of had this loose idea lyrically of a song, but didn't really have any idea of how to build it out into the full track that it is today.
And so in the back of this bus, at like 2 AM, Lewis the Child and all of us are just kind of jamming. And they came up with a lot of some of the electronic line, because it was much more, I don't say acoustic, but ballady at this point in time. And they were really good at this bouncy electro style. And a bunch of the song, I would say like half the song, kind of came out in the back of that bus. And we were all like, this is cool. I really like this, but tipsy, it's late. You're just kind of like, cool, I don't know. And then the next day, I think we were in Utah or something. We're like, let's play that thing from last night.
And there's a bunch of random friends from the area on the bus, and they're just like, what the fuck is that song? And we're like, oh, you like it? Play it again. Yeah. And we played it like 25 times. In the same format. You didn't change it at all from the tipsy night. Yeah. And they were really good at this bouncy electro style. And a bunch of the song, I would say half the song, came out in the back of that bus. And we were all like, this is cool. I really like this, but tipsy, it's late. You're just cool. I don't know. And then the next day, I think we were in Utah or something. We're like, let's play that thing from last night.
And there's a bunch of random friends from the area on the bus. And they're just like, what the fuck is that song? And we're like, oh, you like it. Play it again. Yeah. And we played it 25 times. In the same format. You didn't change it at all from the tipsy night. Yeah. Really didn't change it from the night before. And we were just like, oh, it's actually good. Huh? We liked this, but it didn't scream things to me. And the other thing that's worth mentioning is, shout to Sean Frank. He's another great DG producer that has helped us on countless songs. Drew had never sung anything up to that point in time. Yeah. And we didn't have any singers on tour with us.
So he was just like, I'll just sing it as a scratch demo. And hopefully, we'll find someone else to replace me. And so when we were playing it for people, it was Drew singing. And they were like, damn, you actually sound pretty good. At least tonally, in the world of the song. And it was wild because Sean, to Drew and I, shout to Sean, was just like, I can make you sound good. I know you're not a singer, but I have enough experience in Pro Tools and Auto Tune and all these things where I can make you sound amazing. And he did. And I remember sitting there for a few shows in the back of the bus where Drew just cut every line over and over and over and over and over again.
And it started to really glow. And it was just a wild experience. I remember we sent it to our manager and a few people, and they were like, it was weird because you send stuff to people and you don't know what their reaction is going to be. And our manager was like, cool. And we were like, what? This song is amazing. The story just goes on forever because then it was about, there were so many feature issues and things like that. I'm curious what the impact of drinking or drugs can have on creativity. I feel like in tech circles, and a lot of the world though, there's lately been this real push towards no drinking, no drugs, a very sanitized physiology. Totally.
Which I'm all for. Yeah. I love going to bed early. Yeah. I love feeling good. I just also, of course, know that a lot of creative people, I think both actually in tech, in music, in other fields, I do think that alcohol and drugs play some role for a lot of people. A hundred percent. I mean, I think it can obviously loosen your inhibitions and lead you on a path of coming up with ideas or doing things that you would. Him singing might've been a result of having a few beers that night where he was like, fuck it, I'll do it. Like, I don't care if anyone's around me thinking that my voice sucks. I'm just going to do it. I think there was a double-edged sword.
I totally agree with you. I think Drew's the epitome of health now. I think we've both been very conscious over our career of maybe we need to tone this down a little bit. I've actually never, my fun fact is I've never done Coke ever in my life. It surprises a lot of people. Yeah. We're in Vegas a lot. We played sometimes four or five weeks of shows in a row. Drugs and alcohol are a big part of music culture historically. Yeah. And I think that there's obviously a reason why. You're dancing, you're having fun, you're partying, the associations of that. I mean, part of art even. I think a lot of writers. Totally.
I mean, it's this tortured self thing that, it's cool to smoke a cigarette, look cool. People smoking cigarettes look cooler for some reason. I don't know why, but it's definitely going to give you cancer. And there's something dangerous and badass about that, the self-reverence. But what we notice with ourselves is that in the studio, the same way that it can enable you to take a little bit more risk or step outside your comfort zone. Yeah. It also becomes a dependency where you think, oh, shit, I can't write great unless I'm tipsy or drunk or having a drink or something like that. Yeah. And that's definitely a slippery slope.
And I think that goes for anyone across anything. You could make that case for marathon runners. It's like, unless I run 20 miles today, I'm going to be in a terrible mood. And I think finding that balance is really, really important. And something that we've definitely thought about. I mean, the idea of writing music during the day used to be like, hell no. Right. And we write at night because that's when it's a vibe and it's cool and you can cut loose. And now we're just like, no, I like the focus of the daytime and coming here and having the intention of just being like, we're making music no matter what. It's like writing music caffeinated.
I always think that after my second cup of coffee, Yeah. I have a few hours where my brain is at its absolute peak. Totally. It's productive peak. It's not creative peak, but it's productive peak. But I do wonder if you get to a place, even in creative endeavors, where you probably could translate that caffeinated morning buzz into. Yeah. Into music. No, totally. I think you have to come in with energy and inspired, but I think like anything, so much of the importance is how you start. I can tell almost right away when we're going to have a productive day versus a day where we're just hitting walls and nothing feels inspiring.
And I think it's really tough as you get older. When we started making music, really no one cared about us. No one bothered us, checked in. No one was like, hey, I need your eyes on this for 15 minutes, or this thing's happening over here that needs your attention. And so it was very much just like we were in the zone, and no one really could take us out of it, and no one wanted to take us out of it. Totally. And now we have to be so much more protective about that stuff. I don't know if you saw our photo on our studio door, but it's literally a set of rules that are like, before you come in here, think about this. Is what you're about to say really important?
Are they in the middle of something? And, you know, because we found that it's so easy for someone to come in and just be like, hey, by the way, that deal or that show, something happened. And you're just like, oh, God dang it. And then you're like, now I'm not. It's Paul Graham's great essay that talks about the maker schedule and the manager schedule. And when someone's making things, you need to not distract them. Totally too expensive. The flow state is very real. I mean, Roses happened in one session. A lot of Closer happened, even though it's an idea that had been floating around, happened in one session. Don't Let Me Down, similarly.
So there is something consistent about that, and you really want to stay in that place. Most songs still, you'll come back and spend And cause we found that it's so easy for someone to come in and just be like, hey, by the way, that deal or that show, something happened. And you're just like, oh, God dang it. And then you're like, now I'm not, it's Paul Graham's great essay that talks about the maker schedule and the manager schedule. And when someone's making things, you need to not distract them. Totally too expensive. The flow state is very real.
Roses happened in one session, most, a lot of Closer happened, even though it's an idea that had been floating around, happened in one session. Don't Let Me Down, similarly. So there is something consistent about that. And you really want to stay in that place. Most songs still, you'll come back and spend seven months refining and tinkering. But generally speaking, it's not like, hey, I got 10% of this song out today and then 20% tomorrow.
And then there's just something, Drew has this great expression where it's like, there's something changes when a song becomes promiscuous, and it's listened to too much, too many people before it's done, or too many opinions have weighed in on what people think. It just smooths out the good edge. Yeah, exactly. And it's just like something, the magic is eroded away. And I think he's totally right. And I think I'm always like, let's not show anybody this thing outside of a really... Especially when it's good. I think about this a lot. This actually happens for me in investing.
It happens in other areas of life too, where you're uncertain, and you're asking for a lot of opinions. And then every once in a while, there's a thing that you're positive is good. Yeah. And you don't need to ask anybody's opinion. And you just do that thing. I totally agree. Like, I know this is right. You have to trust your gut. Yeah. And then I'm a huge intuition guy. Yeah. Guy. And that's why I love, I'm happy to have Drew as a partner, cause we kind of like, yeah, iron sharpens iron is how we think about it. But at the same time, it's so easy to get talked out of something awesome. And people don't always have the same context.
Everyone's coming with their own experiences that are shaping the way they're thinking about something. So you might be like, hey, I love this idea. Nuclear, it's great. And they'll be like, this guy's never going to work. And it's like, well, is that cause you lost $20 million in the last era of nuclear, or are you actually looking at this with a fresh eye that's not tainted by any past experience? And I don't think anyone could say that they're not, in some way, shape, or form, the outcome of all of their experiences, the sum of all their experiences. Just cause I love these song stories, if we could do one more. Don't Let Me Down is another one of my favorites.
Can you tell me how that came together? Yeah. And it's funny because I wasn't in the room when this song was written. It was a heartbreaking thing. I think I had a doctor's appointment or something stupid that day. And so Drew and our, we were in New York. We lived next door to each other on 23rd Street. And we did this session with Scott Harris and Emily Warren, both amazing writers. Emily is one of our closest friends now. I remember they came in and wrote, they were inspired by kind of like the xx, the band. I think they're headlining Coachella or close to it this year. Yeah. They're a very incredible band. Yes.
And they just have these incredible guitar riffs, and they wanted to, and at the same time, Drew had just been challenged by his girlfriend to make a trap song, ex-girlfriend at the time now. She was really into Yellow Claw and trap artists. And he was like, I can make this. And so he was like, but I want to combine our indie approach. I love the xx. I do like trap. I just haven't made any of it. And I remember getting there after everyone left, and he was like, so we wrote this today. And I was like, good God. I was like, what the hell? It wasn't fully flushed out, but it was pretty good, pretty damn good. I don't think he had the drop yet, but it was coming together.
And I was like, what's it about? And he was like, well, Emily wrote it about being lost at Coachella on drugs, and you're supposed to meet up with friends, but you can't find them, and you're like, don't let me down. And I was like, this is a really good song. And then we had a flight later that night, and when we landed, Drew was like, I think I got the drop. And I was like, it was kind of a weird song for me, cause I really didn't have much of a hand in it at all. We're going to stitch that drop in here, cause I just played it in my head. Yeah. And then, and then I'm like, but I get to reap all of these amazing rewards for it.
And obviously we didn't have Daya on the song at the time. We didn't have the finale. So a bunch of things I did get to participate in, but truly, that was a Drew-Emily-Scott special. Yeah. The last thing I'll say that was really funny about this song is that I remember we were like, this is the song. It's going to be the next single, 100%. Everyone that heard it was like, this is insane. And then Drew's computer completely crashed. And I wouldn't say Drew is the epitome of organization. And so we were like, what do you mean? You've got a backup or something. And he's like, I don't have anything. It's gone.
So we had to rebuild the entire song from memory, from scratch, which is truly insane. Oh, that's frustrating. But he'll tell you that it was actually a really important exercise. And I think this leans into a lot of things that Rick Rubin does really well, which is he didn't include anything that wasn't completely necessary the next time around. He was like, I remember the guitar. I remember the bass. I remember the piano. I remember the drop synth I used, and the horns in the end.
And it was like, instead of having, in the first version, all these different layers trying to compensate for things and create more depth and texture and different things, instead he was just like, I got to get this done. These are the main parts that I remember. And the recreation came out better. Better, I'd say, because all the bullshit was removed from it. But I was also like, we have to, now we have a very thorough backup system. Yeah. But that was a scary one because it was like, what if we had lost that song forever? Actually, this is making me wonder if you had to go back and recreate similar versions of your existing songs right now. Yeah.
And be like, make it sound mostly the same, but see if you can improve it. Yeah. Do you think you could go make Paris a little better if you just spent a week on it? I think we've said in the past that Don't Let Me Down and maybe Sick Boy are the only two songs we've ever finished that we were like, those are done. I don't know how to make this better. That is it. Every other song, there's something. Closer, you listen to it and you're like, I could change that to make it better. Turning something down, turning something up. Little, tonally, things you might sing a little differently. similar versions of your existing songs right now. Yeah.
And be like, make it sound mostly the same, but see if you can improve it. Yeah. Do you think you could go make Paris a little better if you just spent a week on it? I think we've said in the past that Don't Let Me Down and maybe Sick Boy are the only two songs we've ever finished that we were like, those are done. You know what I mean? I don't know how to make this better. That is it. Every other song, there's something. The closer you listen to it, you're like, I could change that to make it better. Turning something down, turning something up. You know what I mean? Just little, tonally, things you might sing a little differently.
Nothing significant, you know what I mean? But do you do that? So when you play songs live, do you improve them years after you've released them? And then the live version that you play, you stick with an improvement. I think for us, yes. I think part of it is DJ culture of just, we want to surprise people. We want people to hear the song that they love and know, but surprise them with a bigger drop or something that just leans into the experience we're trying to create at the show a little more without ruining the actual, nothing's worse than being like, oh, that's my favorite song. What the hell is this for, first thing he's playing.
Years ago, I went to a show of yours in Las Vegas, daytime. Yeah. And I was just like, this is the most unbelievable energy ever. Yeah, it's fun there. It's a crazy energy. It's fun there. It's got to be so fun. I can't even imagine what it feels like for you. I mean, I know we all get used to anything. Yeah. I'm sure after you've done it enough. Every experience is a new endeavor because everyone in Vegas is trying to have the best time of their life, which makes that experience really fun for us. Because you're just like, I'm trying to help this huge group of people just have the best day of all time. That's what you got to remember.
I mean, I've been playing there for seven years now, and you'd go in and you'd be like, I mean, now we play like four or 500 shows there. Yeah. And you're like, yeah, this is routine on some level. And you're like, that's our job. I'm not going to, sure, I'll throw in some tracks that I want to educate people on or I think are cool that maybe aren't popular yet. But a lot of the experience is just like, hey, we know what you're here for. I've been in your shoes. I just want to party with my best friends and have a great day singing and dancing to the songs that I love, maybe. And our job is to present them in clever, fun, unique ways that make it interesting.
Because it's like, Vegas, I don't say the people there are the lowest common denominator. That's not true. But the habits, as a sum of parts, they all like Mr. Brightside. You know what I mean? Who doesn't really like that song? And so, you know, but then you'll play a song that's number one on Billboard right now, and people are like, I don't know this song. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, damn, this song has not trickled down. And so it's amazing to watch how long it takes for a song to permeate through culture to reach that broad consumer base. And it's our job to kind of test those waters and challenge people, but feed them things they know.
We have this Closer edit where we start with Fast Car, and then it goes into the Luke Bryan version, and then goes into Closer, and people love it. Because it's like country fans now. Yeah. People that love Fast Car, people that love Closer. And just when you think you know the song, you're like, oh, it's Closer. And then you're like, wait, it's Fast Car. And then it goes back into Closer. And those are the fun things that you can do that make a pretty straightforward experience more interesting. You have this really rare trait, which is that you are both an artist and a real business person. Even listening to the way you've talked about songs and music.
Part of it is you got to go internal, make your own thing, not listen to anybody, screw what other people think. Yeah. Which is, to me, the epitome of an artist. And then you're also like, give people what they want. And we're here to deliver an experience for people and listen to them and get their feedback, which is the epitome of a business person. And you're both. Yeah, it's a, we're tormented inside. Even the fact you spend half your time, as an investor, half your time as an artist, that mix-up, I think, is uncommon. It's awesome. I mean, I think for us, when Drew and I met, I guess it's almost 14 years ago now,
from the very first hang, it was pretty clear to us that we both had really big ambitions, but we were very aligned in how we wanted to achieve them. It wasn't like there was going to be some shortcut to success. We were like, we're both willing to put in the work and the hours, whatever it takes to kind of get where we want to go. But I think the unique part, I mean, this was a crazy first meeting. First we were like, do you like Calvin Harris? And it was like, yeah, Calvin Harris. Cool, what else? What else do we have in common? But then quickly, it was like our love for dance music, our background, tastes in music, things
we listen to, entrepreneurial endeavors that we had throughout our youth when we didn't know each other. And then we were like, all right, let's do this. But also when we are successful in building The Chainsmokers, let's only use that as the stepping stone to building a bigger platform of opportunity and entrepreneurial efforts. We had no idea what those things were, but from the get-go, we were both like, it's not just going to stop here. Yeah. And I think for us, Drew used to sell Timberlands that he bought locally in China. You guys are always entrepreneurs. Always doing stuff and trying to find ways to be creative and clever in business.
And I think music is such a certain part of your brain and personality that I do think part of us was yearning also for something that was a little bit more tangible and analytical. Yeah. And I don't want to say music's not competitive, but business is definitely a different type of competition or way of thinking about it. Yeah. For us, we had started a tequila company, we had a TV and production company, and venture was kind of the last bastion, most recent thing, bastion for us. And honestly, I didn't know what it was. I really did not know anything about venture. I remember our business manager was like, I got pinged by some company that wants you to
potentially invest and take some equity. And I was like, what does that mean? What does all that mean? I understand what equity means, but what is venture capital, passive income? And he was just like, listen, you guys have been intelligent about how you've diversified your portfolio over the last few years. This is certainly not something you have to explore, but if you are interested in investing in products or platforms or things that you think are cool, let's try it. And most of the time you're going to fail, but maybe you get lucky and it works out. And we began that journey, and very quickly, it was like a part of our brain lighting
up that I felt had been not dormant, but underserved. And it was just so fascinating to be passively along on the ride with these founders that had these super ambitious goals and plans for the future. And then it kind of just, like an avalanche, things came from that. venture capital, passive income. And he was just like, listen, you guys have been intelligent about how you've diversified your portfolio over the last few years. This is certainly not something you have to explore, but if you are interested in investing in products or platforms or things that you think are cool, let's try it, you know?
And most of the time you're going to fail, but maybe you get lucky and work out. And we began that journey, and very quickly, it was a part of our brain lighting up that I felt had been not dormant, but underserved. And it was just so fascinating to be passively along on the ride with these founders that had these super ambitious goals and plans for the future. And then it just avalanche of things came from that. Yeah. And then I'm sure it all plays together. And I'm sure there's a bunch of ways where business makes your music better or music can make your business better. Definitely.
I'm sure there are also ways where you probably feel tensions on certain days, just because there are only so many hours in the day. Yeah. An example I've thought about that I'm actually really curious to hear how you think about: last year, I got into hi-fi audio. I've always loved music. I played music a lot as a kid growing up, and I love listening to music. And I started listening to albums. I find the experience of listening to a whole album super different than just listening to a song. Yeah. And I feel like the difference is I'm listening to an artist rather than a song. Totally. And so it's just like, who's this person?
And then I get into their albums over time and how they grow and evolve, and you see what they pour into it. Yeah. I talked about this a bit before, but one of my favorites is Bon Iver. Yeah. And he's just had, I can't say enough good things. I'm going to mess it up. But there were the early days with For Emma, Forever Ago, where it's all so raw and young. And he's talking about a breakup, and I think his band fell apart. He's in the woods with a sad-sounding guitar, but it's amazing. And then he gets into his core stuff a few years later with his self-named album. Yeah. And it's totally different, and there's a band around him now. Then it got really experimental.
He had i,i. Before that there was 22, A Million, and those songs, I'm just like, what fucking instrument? I don't recognize that sound. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. And John Vernon is like the goat of goats. Yeah. I think we talk about this with any artists out there. If Bon Iver is not in their top five, I would be thoroughly surprised by that. He's just so revered. I don't know cars, but it's like people that are like, there's cars, and then there's car lovers' favorite cars that are universally like, that's the car, you know? He's like that for musicians. And I think, to your point about albums, which is something we talk a lot about
today because it's changed so dramatically, the format by which we listen to music, fighting for people's attention. But I do think that you would be hard-pressed to find an artist in the history of music that would stand the test of time that hasn't delivered an incredible album. I think it's an absolutely essential part if you will ever be mentioned among the greats. And those albums, so much has to go into an album. Totally. And I think Billie Eilish talks about it a lot. She's just like, I try not to pick singles on my albums. The context is so important. She's generally kind of put off by when an artist is like, this song is my single.
And I think Jack Antonoff kind of said it best, actually, where he's like, singles without an album are like hallways that lead to nowhere, you know? And singles can be a path to a story, which is fine, but you need a story. You need the story, you need the album. And I know that's harder than ever in today's culture of social media and fighting for attention. It must take so much focus. It's not something that you could do in a day. It's not something you could even probably do in a week or a month. No, you have to. It's so tough. You have to be tortured for a year, I bet. Literally. I mean, I think we've made some great albums in the past, and every album was
dramatically different in terms of our approach. Probably the thing that felt closest to what the artist that I really am and respected was, because you do have to unplug from the world. You're like, I'm going off into this mental space and physically, and I'll be back when I have something that I'm excited about, and I don't even know what that is. And I need to figure out what that story is, what that visual line is, what I care about right now. What does it feel and sound like? I'm a huge Tame Impala fan. He does a really great job of this. But for us, during COVID, we rented a house. Actually, right before COVID, in Hawaii. Shout out to Brian Chesky.
We were friends of his. We had met him through some events and stuff, and he was like, if you ever want one of the houses to write an album, let me know. And we were like, we'll take one in Hawaii. Yeah, that's good. And we went there for four weeks and just did mushrooms and surfed and wrote music literally every minute of the day. And it was like, this is what we weren't taking meetings. We weren't getting interrupted by people. You're like, this is what I would take. Yeah. We were locked in on this sound. Granted, it still took two years to really finish that album. But when we came back, we were like, this is the, you know what I mean?
The road had been paved, and we just needed to continue down. Did the mushrooms help? Yes and no. I mean, I think it can lead you. It's like some of where we're talking about alcohol. There's the perfect balance. It got us out of our own way. It's this ego-killer thing. I want to say it flattened, but when we were all, it's weird. If you do mushrooms with a group of people, for some reason, you all hit at the same time. And I don't know if anyone listening can agree with that, but you could sit around with friends, you all take mushrooms, you're all different sizes, you're all different biologies, but categorically, I guarantee you, you
will all be like, at the same time, you're like, whoa, you know? And I think that got us and everyone that was there on this similar page where we were really connected and in tune with the things we wanted to say and write and the feeling we got from everything. But at the same time, you can over-index, and then you can start writing about really weird stuff. And I think, again, everything in moderation is important. But at that time it was like, that was the feeling we wanted. We didn't want to come in there with angst and aggression from previous experiences. Our Sick Boy album was filled with resentment toward the press and media and how people perceived us.
It was this weird dissociating feeling, but it was weird because that was an album that came together song by song in a different way. And then literally eight songs into the album, we were happy again, you know what I mean? And so this album takes this dramatically different tone. Yeah. And you're just like, But I think that's what makes it authentic when it's like that. A hundred percent. But we're just like, what a weird, you know, about really weird stuff. And I think, again, everything in moderation is important. But at that time, that was the feeling we wanted, how we didn't want to come in there with angst and aggression from previous experiences.
Our Sick Boy album was filled with resentment towards the press and media and how people perceived us. It was this weird disassociating feeling, but it was weird because that was an album that came together song by song in a different way. And then literally eight songs into the album, we were happy again. And so this album takes this dramatically different tone. Yeah. And you're just like, But I think that's what makes it authentic when it's like that. A hundred percent. But we're just like, what a weird, It is weird when you're listening and you're like, oh, something happened. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I was like, well, and so it's definitely a reflection of us and the timeline of our lives and the things we were experiencing, but it wasn't a moment. How do you balance wanting to give people what they love? And obviously, I'm sure a huge part of what drives you is getting to make millions of people happy. Totally. Yeah. How do you balance that and the type of music they love? Yeah. With, I'm sure, your own interests in music and your own desires to grow as an artist in different ways and to try new things. Yeah. And I'm sure there's some tension there. It's such an important question to ask because I think there are so many who start this way.
First, you find a sound that's unique to you, and people rally around it and are excited about it. You make this song and it becomes not what you're synonymous for, but Tame Impala has a sound, Drake has a sound. Everyone has something that is identifiable where you're like, that's the vibe. And then you start to hear people being like, oh, it's just that again. Or like, let's see you make something else and try something else. Naturally, comments like that, for some reason, cut through, and we can make anything. We generally are good producers and writers. You know how to make all kinds of music. And then you find yourself in the studio being like, I'm going to show you.
And in some cases it works, like Drew's ex-girlfriend that was like, you can't make trap songs. You're looking at me now. Yeah. But he found a way to fit it in the context of our world, which I think makes sense. And so I think it's so important to stay true to who you are. It doesn't mean don't experiment. It doesn't mean don't broaden your horizons and seek and explore different opportunities. But I think it's really important to stay and just be authentic. I think exactly. And if you've changed as a person, I feel like the music should change almost. Absolutely. And it doesn't mean it's like, I use this one synth, so I use this one synth in every song.
It's just like, hey, what's wrong with people coming to us for this thing? Kygo, this is why he does so goddamn well. It's because people come to him for this sound and experience, and it's fucking awesome. And I think he really delivers that experience. I think the other side of the equation is this idea of, I'm a big Oasis fan. And I love the Liam and Noel Gallagher clips that you're getting from the past. And he has this epic clip that everyone should go see where he's just like, he's like, your fans are idiots. He's like, they don't know what they want. He's like, that's what I'm supposed to deliver to them. Like, I tell my fans what they want.
They don't tell me what they want. Obviously, he does it in his Oasis way, which is awesome and funny and irreverent. But I also totally agree with him. And I think you have to balance that. We had a song we just put out called Smooth that I love. And all of our fans, while we were promoting other songs, were like, Smooth, really Smooth. We want Smooth. And we made Smooth. We're very excited about Smooth. It is very authentically us. I don't think it's a departure, but I think we were also thinking like, oh, this is going to be our biggest song because our fans are all asking for it. But it's not working out that way. Yeah.
And so, whereas we released a song last summer called Addicted that none of our fans were stoked about, but ended up being one of our biggest songs in the last few years and appealed to a much broader audience. Can you, so you're saying it's not that predictable what's going to hit? I think it's just like, you just got to trust your gut, what we were saying earlier. I don't think releasing Smooth was a mistake. I love that song. And I don't think releasing Addicted, which none of our fans wanted, was a mistake.
But I do think it's harder to play Addicted in our shows because it doesn't fit in naturally with the energy we've created, whereas Smooth is just 100% Chainsmokers. So I think you have to think about those things long term. And I think Selfie is a great example of this. We made that song as a joke, put it on the internet just for fun. It took us like 30 minutes to do it. And then we have to live with the song for the rest of our lives. Now people expect us to perform it, talk about it. It's part of our history. We didn't think about that so much when we just put it online on the internet, which is forever. And so those things have consequences.
But I think as the artist, it's your job to absorb these things, understand why people are feeling a certain way. I think what we should have taken away from the Smooth thing is that people love when Drew's singing. They love the intimate storytelling of our music. And they like the Hands Up, Progressive House production. But it doesn't necessarily mean that we should be like, Smooth is the next song because they want it. Does good art require external inspiration?
Can you make great stuff without some catalyst that's inspiring you, whether it's something good or bad that happened in your life, somebody that you saw and learned from, and were really moved by what they did? Yeah. Can a great thing really just bubble up out of you, or is it always being translated from some inspiration outside? I'm going to go with inspiration. And I'm not saying that, going back to what we were saying about Chris Martin and music being sent down, but I think when it's sent down, you have to be in a place mentally and creatively to receive that message and inspiration.
And usually those feelings are coming from all these experiences that you've had in your life. Could be a new love, could be a breakup, could be a movie you've seen, could be a conversation you just had. A lot of the ways we start songs are like therapy sessions. It's literally like, forget music, what's going on? Yeah. How is your home right now? Yeah. How are you in your relationship? Is there anything that surprised you? Some of your family, what's it like being 35 or 40 in my case? Through those conversations, you're led to places or thinking about things that impacted you. And I think acting is a great example of this.
You're literally being hired to play the role of someone, not you. And so you are channeling all of these things you've seen and experienced to try to capture the essence of this character in this film. And I can remember, I think it was a PBS episode, where someone was like, great acting, like to be a great actor, go do everything else except act. Go to as many art shows as possible. See as much theater as possible. Listen to as much music as possible. Read as many books as possible. Yeah. Are you having your relationship? Are there anything that surprised you?
Some of your family, what's it like being 35 or 40 in my case, through those conversations, you're led to places or thinking about things that impacted you. And I think acting is a great example of this. You're literally being hired to play the role of someone, not you. And so you are channeling all of these things you've seen and experienced to try to capture the essence of this character in this film. And I can remember, I think it was a PBS episode where someone was like, great acting, to be a great actor, go do everything else except act. Go to as many art shows as possible. See as much theater as possible. Listen to as much music as possible.
Read as many books as possible. And then you will have this incredible library of context where you can pull from and hopefully create your own thing. And I think it's kind of like the conversation about large language models being copyrightable outputs or not. I don't think they really should be, to be honest with you. Have you played around with AI music at all yet? Yeah, absolutely. What do you think? It's incredible and scary. You think it will matter? It will matter. Do you think we'll be listening to a lot of AI-generated music? I think we already are. You don't even know it.
I think in the middle of your song, there will be clips that AI helped, or there will be parts that AI helped. Maybe eventually. I think for us, it's just shocking. Again, what I like about AI tools right now for us is it just keeps us in the zone, which is all we want to do. Instead of getting caught up being like, fuck, we need to make drums now, which is the next part of this creative process for us, and it's going to take me an hour and a half, it's like, never mind. I can prompt this thing to pump out. This might not be the final drums we're going to use, but it keeps us moving in the process of creativity. Yeah.
I think we've gotten demos sent to us where it's like 15 songs that Drew's singing on, and you're like, no, no, no. Actually, Drew sounds pretty good on that. And I think that's a really cool application of it. I think that if you were in a nightclub and I was playing an AI-generated song, but it was good, let's just say it was a good song, I don't think anyone would know. You know what I mean? Genuinely, I think if you can do the control placebo effect of AI music versus human being, it's pretty good. Yeah. Would people really be able to determine which was which? Do I think it's important? Kind of like the similar conversation about albums, I do think context matters.
I think albums provide context the same way that a personality provides context. That's how I feel. It's harder. I think a big part of what makes me enjoy music is knowing something about the artist and why the song or the album happened. I don't think that's the only way to enjoy it. I also love just listening to something on the radio. Yeah. Or you're out doing stuff. That's awesome, too. Yeah. But the best version of enjoyment of music, I do think the context helps. Absolutely. And I think it's interesting because we're fighting against that with TikTok in many ways.
I think the way people are discovering music, which TikTok is a great tool for and platform for, is they just hear something that sounds catchy and they're like, I'm gonna make a video of this. Only recently did Spotify create integration where you can click on the song that takes you to Spotify, so you can even see what this person looks like or anything. And I think that step is definitely missing the mark in a lot of cases for younger listeners now, where they're not taking that at all. They're just like, oh, this is a cool song. Not even everything that goes viral on TikTok translates to streaming on the platform either.
But I think those were some of my, that's why music videos were so cool back in the day. Because it was like, there they are. Now everyone's so available. Everything's out there. We're all like, do we care? Do you even care? I just like the song, whatever. You know what I mean? But I think the artists that have longevity force people to ask those questions and seek them out a little further. Because seeing what Justin Vernon's like as a human being, it adds so much depth. So much music. Yeah. And Omar's, same thing. Yeah. This guy's absolutely a great dancer. You wouldn't know that if you didn't seek him out.
He also has more number one songs. His average of number one songs is like 700% or something, like 70% of the time he has a number one song, which is like, he's only released like 75 songs or something, 80 songs, which is unbelievable statistics. One of the things that's so cool, and I'm in San Francisco in tech, so I don't get to think about this as much, but outlier talent is a really cool thing. Yeah. That there are some people that are just that good at singing, that good at music, that good at entertainment. It's cool. Yeah. It's really cool.
And also it's really weird when you see someone working on having that talent, working on the wrong thing, or it's so talented that they can't even channel it correctly. I had terrible ADHD growing up, and I was a super average student until 10th grade. And then I figured out making lists organized my brain, and it was just a function of I can do everything. I just wouldn't spend enough time. And I love the experience of crossing things off more than I hated having to focus. And it just made me a war machine of getting shit done. And I think when you find someone that's doing the thing they're supposed to do at the right time, it's one of the greatest.
I think 30 years ago, we misunderstood ADHD as this ailment, and it turned out it's the superpower that just needs Cyclops glasses. 100%. I read a really interesting article the other day about autism and how a lot of our favorite apps today used by most society were created by people that have some level of autism or Asperger's or something. Yeah. And that they are, by function, tools that aid someone whose natural experience in public is uncomfortable. Yeah. So Facebook or Instagram or all these things are ways to create community, but in settings that are more consumable and comfortable.
And I was like, that's a really interesting thought, that all the most powerful platforms were created by people that wanted to create a platform. Totally. That was like lean more. I mean, people think of ADHD as inability to focus, and that's not what it is. It's disordered focus. Totally. And so it also comes with mega focus. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If I'm named correctly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, it's just figuring out how to use those superpowers. That's one of the biggest struggles that anyone has in life. Everyone has something they're inherently good at or have overcome some experience.
I think it was Mike Moritz is famous for asking, what kind of trauma did you go through that's going to give you some sort of edge or chip on your shoulder or drive that will just help you succeed against everyone else? I think everyone has those things. It's just really hard to uncover what those things are and even harder to figure out where to direct that energy. Even if you do, I think every day it's what motivates me because I never thought I'd be doing any of this stuff. So it's kind of like, let's keep going. That's one of the biggest, I think, struggles that anyone has in life. Everyone has something they're inherently good at or have overcome some experience.
I know, I think it was Mike Moritz is famous for asking, what kind of trauma did you go through that's going to give you some sort of edge or chip on your shoulder or drive that will just help you succeed against everyone else. I think everyone has those things. It's really hard to uncover what those things are and even harder to figure out where to direct that energy. Even if you do, I think every day it's what motivates me because I'm, I never thought I'd be doing any of this stuff. So it's, let's keep going. I was thinking it's where self-awareness matters so much, and it's what lets you take advantage of your special attributes. Yeah.
And I think a lot of people want to be something that they're not, or they want to do something that's not natural for them. And so maybe this is a good segue into your investing work, where you've also now built a venture firm and you're working really hard, very successfully, at that. Yeah. And it's a really different job than your music. And you and I were chatting before about playing to your strengths and figuring out where you've got an unfair advantage and focusing your time there. So maybe just to start on the investing side, how do you think about where you want to be playing and where you should focus Mantis?
It's kind of an interesting approach in terms of that. We are not consumer investors. In fact, I leaned into spaces that we probably have the least amount of business being invested in. And I've listened to a lot of your episodes, and every time I've finished listening to one, I'm like, what am I even doing? You know what I mean? If this guy isn't my competitor by virtue of the way we've set up our firm, wow. You mean that you've set up in order to be able to participate with everybody? Yeah. We want to be collaborative. I want to learn from everyone around me.
I want people to think of us as an ally versus foe. I also think that was a big part of our success in music, was collaboration. So I think it's a natural extension into venture, and over time we'll absorb these best practices and hopefully become the great investors that I listen to on the show every week. But I think for us, we wanted to lean into spaces out of curiosity. I was much more interested in investing in cybersecurity than I was in more consumer stuff, similar with AI, similar with health tech and deep and frontier technologies. I just thought, if you're going to, if it's already such a gamble, at least gamble on things that you care about,
that you think are really interesting. I also thought, hey, there's tons of celebrities investing in soda companies, very few investing in software software. Yeah. That is an advantage and disadvantage in itself. There's probably a reason why they're not doing that, because it's really technical, really challenging, and also what business do you have? A lot of success that we hopefully will have is just an outcome of the value we're able to add. So the second that we invest in a company and a founder is like, they just didn't know shit. They didn't do shit. That was just a real waste of cap space.
For me, we're dead in the water. So we definitely took a risk doing this, but I think Drew and I are hustlers, and we're just like, we're going to figure it out. We know, I have to believe that there's more things these companies need than what is currently available to them. And also modern day times are changing so fast. When the B2B enterprise software founders are fucking creators on X now, they're making videos like Logan Paul does, and that's awesome. And so I knew that there were going to be things that we could offer that would be helpful. And we wanted to make sure that it was commensurate with what we were asking for. It's like,
don't ask for 15% if you don't feel like you're going to add 15% value to the company. And then the last piece was also just the formation. And I say this a lot, but we've made so many great relationships over the course of our career with all sorts of incredible people that are leaders of these different areas. And to us, it was like, well, why not go raise capital from them, turn them into allies of the fund, where we're using them for advice? We're potentially leveraging the success of their platforms to drive value back into the companies we're investing in. And we'll use them as our initial wedge so that when someone's like, why are you investing? Why should
I let you invest in this company? It's like, because I know you want to talk to this guy. And this guy's one of our good friends, and I can make that happen for you. But once we're in the door, we'll provide all sorts of value. And I always say, and I think it's really summed up by this kind of analogy, we're trying to be the sixth man of the year on every championship team. I'm not trying to be a starter right now. I think it's much cooler to come off the bench for a team that wins a ring than it is to be a starter on a team that's not even in the playoffs. And I think we stand to learn more by being a part of that process.
What you mean by that is you just want to be in great companies, even if it's not like you led the round or something? Yes, that, but I think the implications of being alongside a founder that is building a great company, you get to see what greatness looks like. You get to understand what are they doing that I can take and hopefully replicate across other investments. And it's like, you kind of are what you eat. If you hang out with shitty people, you're going to be a shitty person probably. If you got to play on the 2002 Lakers, 2001 Lakers, with Kobe Bryant, you got to see this man, the way he practiced, the way he
approached the sport, the intensity. You also got to see how Phil Jackson coached the team. And so for me, as a new investor, that's a huge benefit too. Obviously the goal is to be a part of great companies so we generate big returns. But I think for us, it's also an opportunity to learn from the best and see what that profile looks like so that we can improve. Do the two worlds trade with each other in any way? Or are you just trying to learn from them in the background? In other words, are you in any ways directly using one sort of network or one sort of special access point in the other? Or are you like, actually,
that's polluting the sanctity of each, and I'm going to learn from both, but there are two different businesses? Yeah. Let me start with a story Jimmy Buffett told us. And we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away. And for us, it was an opportunity to ask an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in the business side of his empire, which was Margaritaville. And at the time, he was towards the end of his life, and he was like, I'm building retirement communities for my fans. So if you're 80 years old, but you don't want to go to some shitty retirement home, you want to go to the
Margaritaville experience retirement home. I'm always serving my fans and always thinking about businesses that are extensions of who I am. And so with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side or founder side or operating side, the more we felt comfortable about a lot of the things that made people great, you know, opportunity to ask an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in the business side of his empire, which was Margaritaville. And at the time, he was towards the end of his life. And he was like, I'm building retirement communities that are for my fans. So if you're 80
years old, but you don't want to go to some shitty retirement home, you want to go to the Margaritaville experience retirement home? I'm always serving my fans and always thinking about businesses that are extensions of who I am. And so, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side or founder side or operating side, the more we felt comfortable about a lot of the things that made people great in those spaces were inherently things that made us successful in music. But I think in music, similar to venture, music is a losing game. Most of the songs we put out do not go,
unless you're Bruno Mars, do not go on to be successful, or at least the success that you would talk about in Rolling Stones or Billboard or something like that. But you do learn something very important from every song. You are building character and history and reps in the gym and pattern recognition. And I think investing is a lot like that. Everyone I spoke to, which was hundreds of people, was like, most of your investments are going to go to zero. And I was comfortable with that. But you have to learn from that. You can't let it be, it can't set you back in terms of your next deal. You have to immediately get back out there and
stop looking at the scoreboard. Just keep your eyes on the field. Yeah. And I think that's something that's really important. And I also think, in general, every time we put out a song, we have to provide context to it. We have to create a story around it. We have to reinvent ourselves and tell people why they should pay attention to us right now. And it's noisier than ever. And I think every company, whether you're in the enterprise B2B space or consumer side, has that same opportunity and hail the climb. And I think we can provide a vantage point that is very useful and helpful, I think, to founders. That's not
contrarian to what the tier one Sequoia or whoever is offering. We just think that you want the Avengers on your cap table. You want someone that has a unique perspective and point of view, that's looking at things differently, but wants the same outcome. And I think music and our experiences in that and building our business there and our brand are super relevant to how we think about company building. I'd be curious to hear your reflections on how you experience elite circles in music and entertainment and in tech and investing. You have real time with both. Yeah. I'd just be curious, how similar is it? Are there some fundamental differences?
I feel like, I don't know why. We have plenty of awesome friends in the entertainment space that are successful, but it does feel like either there's secret groups that I don't know about where everyone's hanging out. Sometimes you see a wedding and you're like, damn, so they all hang out. You know what I mean? Like in Hollywood. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, what a cool, I wish I was part of that group. Drew and I have always just kind of, we love being social, but we're also just so locked in on, you've got a lot to do. Yeah. Well, we're just, we've never counted, no one lifted us up, you know what I mean? And we have always felt like it's on our shoulders to
figure this out and make the music. And if we're out gallivanting around, or whatever. Networking with celebrities. Yeah. It's just, I don't know. It doesn't feel natural to us. Doesn't make music. Yeah. It doesn't make music. And I think there's value in it. Going to fashion week is cool. You love fashion, Drew loves fashion. It's an amazing experience. I don't care about it that much. Totally. So I think we all seek out things and interests that align with who our personalities are. But honestly, I feel like we align with the founder tech people world a lot more acutely because we're just like, let's put hours in the gym,
and the harder we work through ourselves with these problems, the more we're resolved, we're going to get out what we put in. And I feel like we have an imposter syndrome with the Hollywood side of things. I don't feel uniquely special. I feel great about myself, but I don't think anyone should treat me differently for the things we've done in the past. And I'm more just like, what have I done today? Yeah. Than I am like, what I've done in the past. Yeah. I mean, I always think celebrity is a very funny thing. Because no matter how famous somebody is, they're still a regular person. They wake up, they wash their face in the mirror.
Yeah. And then they look at me like, oh yeah, I'm George Clooney. I forgot. You know, there must be some experience like that for everybody. Absolutely. I mean, I think I'm the most average, it's kind of a joke about us where any two white guys can kind of be The Chainsmokers, and there's been plenty of people around the world and people like, oh, I know who you are. And I'm so grateful for that. I don't think I'm an ordinary person, but I think to that end, you can't, I don't know. I just don't think that's how you get, I don't think elitism and things like that are how you, if we think we're the greatest humans in the world, is our music going to begin to feel
like that, you know what I mean, and reflect that and the relationships we have with people. And I think for us, our brand has always been built on acknowledging everyone in the room. Some of our superpowers are, if you walk into a crowded space, we're going to make you feel like you're the biggest VIP here, even if I've never met you before. And I think that's how I wanted to be treated. I don't know, maybe it's like high school drama or something of things, but that to me is more important than anything. And when we were coming up, our music, we didn't want to be wearing big diamond chains. I could
afford diamond chains and super fancy cars, but it was like, I don't, that's not what we're about. I wanted to buy drinks for everyone at the bar. And I think it can take you away from the art. I think in business, it can take you away from the good stuff there too. I do just feel like when people get lost in materiality and ego and status, it is one of the ways people can lose themselves. Well, you see it on the founder side too. Especially nowadays with some of the rounds these kids are raising and secondaries they're allowed to take out and press surrounding them. And I've certainly been involved in some of those companies, and they're not bad people.
It's insecurities or things catching up to you at inopportune times where you're driving cars you probably shouldn't be driving. Yeah. Renting apartments or houses or going out too often because now, finally, people are inviting you places and want to talk about you. And it's like, don't lose sight of things. You see it happen in LA with young artists all the time. It's like, they write a big song, they move to LA. Yeah. There are girls that want to take you out. You're going to clubs, playing your music. And then
Well, you see it on the founder side too, especially nowadays with some of the rounds these kids are raising and secondaries they're allowing to take out, and press surrounding them. And I've certainly been involved in some of those companies, and they're not bad people. It's insecurities or things catching up to you at inopportune times where you're driving cars you probably shouldn't be driving. Yeah. Renting apartments or houses or going out too often because now, finally, people are inviting you places and want to talk about you. And it's like, don't lose sight of things. You see it happen in LA with young artists all the time. It's like, they write a big song, they move to LA. Yeah.
There are girls that want to take you out. You're going to clubs, playing your music. And then suddenly you've been in the studio for one or two days, and now there's a huge pressure on you. Yeah.
And you're not honestly really sure what you should be doing. And I think for us, we're still living the dream, even though we're not going out every night. This is what we wanted to do the whole time. Why are we not doing this right now? And I think balance is really important. I think that doesn't mean to say that this 996 shit is the path to success. But I don't blame anyone for having those things. We're all products of our environment, but it is a shame when you see it. But I also always understand when people are going through that.
Yeah. It's like somebody recently said to me that I think stuff like money and power, fame, that whole sphere of things, it doesn't necessarily corrupt, but it will definitely make more potent whatever natural inclinations you have. Obviously everybody has light and dark inclinations. So what I've heard of it was someone was saying, I always ask someone what is more important to them, money, power, or fame. And there's a right answer. The right answer is just money. Fame is like, you're chasing something egotistical, or is like, I don't know. And I don't know if that's a fair question.
No, I think understanding what drives people, and there's probably some other things in there. Some people just are out of that whole game entirely. But I do think, of those three, different people are very driven by different ones.
Totally. I mean, you see it. There's no more relevant place to see this than going to somewhere like central in the summer, where you have billionaires that can't get into a restaurant. Just because you're a billionaire doesn't mean they're like, but then Elton John pulls up, who's also probably a billionaire, but it's Elton fucking John. He's getting that table. And so we're all chasing access and relevancy. And I think in getting to know some of the artists we've worked with and just people that we've met over the course of our time, everyone is struggling with something. Everyone doesn't feel relevant enough. Everyone is like, even Coldplay, I remember I was like, dude, they sell out 10 Wembleys instantly. That's like 600,000, 700,000 tickets. And he's just like, but he wants kids, the next generation. Uncorrupted, though, to me, I think everyone's corrupted on some level. I think he's definitely probably on the lower end of that spectrum. He is a really principled person and just an amazing guy. But I think we're all still, no matter what you tell yourself, there's like, I don't care. We tell the world one thing, but inside there's something else really driving you or keeping you up at night. And I know I feel it myself.
Well, you're in an interesting spot because you've done a lot. You're still young. You've got two very good businesses going, and you probably have a busy decade ahead where you could go a lot of ways. Do you take it as it comes, or do you have a particular mission and a place you want to get everything?
It's important. Drew and I probably don't do this enough, where you have a conversation about what do we want to do this year? What do we hope to gain? What is the net? Are we both on the same page that we want to make and play music for the next five years? And it's not surprising, the answers we have, but it's surprising that we haven't had the conversations. You also have to balance your objectives with the reality of everything. Music is not a young man's game. We both want to have families. We definitely can't tour as much as we want right now with kids, but what kind of impact does that have on the kids, on your relationships with your wife? These are all things you have to consider that you maybe don't necessarily have all the answers for right now. I was in the David Sandberg podcast, and he was like, I only think 24 hours at a time. And I was like, I don't know if that's a bad or good thing. Yeah, I think that's an important way to stay locked in and continue to prioritize the things that are important for you in the short term. But you have to build. I didn't expect Mantis to be a tier one fund off the bat. I knew it would take 10, 15, 20 years of hard work to get there. So you have to think on those timelines a little bit to get there and understand that we were taking 50K allocations in fund one into great companies because we understood that's where we sat. And it was more important to be in that logo than it was to be outside. And I think in music, similarly, where are we investing our time in singles and albums? Is it on the show that's the most important thing? Is it actually pulling out of the market? I mean, we're so available. If you want to see us, you can come see us in Vegas pretty much every weekend. Is that a bad thing? It's not a bad thing, but there's a tradeoff. It's a thing. It's a tradeoff. And so I think it's just being aware of those things. Having those conversations is so critical. I'm lucky to have a partner where you can have, even though we're not the same person, we're very more aligned than most people are. Incredibly lucky. Yeah. And you'll say things that I'm like, oh, I wasn't really thinking about it in that context, but that is super relevant. But it scares the shit out of me. I mean, my dad died, I think he was like 54, so I'm like only—
Yeah. And he felt so old, mature to me. Mine was 67. Yeah. And it's just a weird context when you put it in that perspective of like, oh my God, I'm already not far off this guy. Am I in better shape? Am I better looking? Well, are they looking more successful? Am I a bigger asshole? Have I left an impact on the world on some level? But I think you can't lose your mind not being able to control the things you obviously can't control.
Yeah. And just have fun. That's something I think Drew and I have been saying a lot lately, which is, to me, momentum is just the most important thing with anything. And it doesn't necessarily mean momentum in that our songs are streaming more or making more money this year. Momentum comes in all different shapes and sizes. And it's like, I want to have fun when we make music in the studio and we talk about planning a tour or what our show looks like. When we're discussing deals, a lot of it's not fun in the Well, I have left an impact on the world on some level, but I think you can't lose your mind not being able to control the things you obviously can't control.
Yeah. And just have fun. That's something I think Drew, I've been saying a lot lately, which is, to me, momentum is just the most important thing with anything. And it doesn't necessarily mean our songs are streaming more or making more money this year. Momentum comes in all different shapes and sizes. I want to have fun when we make music in the studio and we talk about planning a tour or what our show looks like. I want to, when we're discussing deals, a lot of it's not fun in the traditional sense, but it's like, damn, we're in here for this great deal. I can't believe we're having these conversations with these people. And I think that, to me, is what drives me. It's just every day, you're a couple steps forward. It's very meaningful when you zoom out in the long run.
And try not to get wrapped up in the hysteria of, damn, this song failed, keeping it something where you're happy to win, not just sad to lose. I feel like it's so important.
A hundred percent. I told you about a deal I'm freaking stressing out about right now. And already in my head, I'm like, this is probably going to say no, or zero. And I'm like, what would that make me feel like? And what does that mean for the future? And do I want to help this person anymore after this? And I'm just like, no, of course I'm going to fucking help this person. And of course I'm going to be bummed out. And of course I'm going to try again the next time. But also, this guy's answering my texts every time I answer. He could just be like, no. And so I'm an optimist in that sense where it could be a lot worse.
It's an awesome mindset. Alex, this is great. I'm going to let you get back to your day. Thanks a ton for doing this with me. Let's go. All right. Hell yeah. They're watching us. Yeah. This guy's just fucking zipping around. He's just trying to watch that. Yeah. We'll post in a couple weeks. Yeah. But dude, I had no idea you have fans like that. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. replicate across other investments. And it's like, you know, you kind of are what you eat. Like if you hang out with shitty people, you're going to be a shitty person probably, you know what
I mean? You know, like if you got to play on the, you know, what was it like 2002 Lakers, 2001 Lakers, like with Kobe Bryant, like you got to see this man, the way he practiced, the way he approached the sport, like the intensity. You also got to see how Phil Jackson coached the team. And so for me, as like a new investor, it's like, that's a huge benefit too. Like, obviously the goal is to be a part of great companies. So we generate big returns. But I think for us, it's also just an opportunity to about learning from the best and seeing what that profile looks like so that we can
improve. Do the two worlds trade with each other in any way? Or are you just trying to learn from them on in the background? In other words, like, are you in any ways directly using, you know, one sort of network or one sort of special access point in the other? Or are you like, actually, that's like polluting the sanctity of each? And I'm going to learn from both. But there are two different businesses. Yeah. Let me start with like a story Jimmy Buffett told us. And we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away. And for us, it was an opportunity to ask like an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in like the business
side of his empire, which was like Margaritaville. And at the time, you know, he was towards the end of his life. And he was like, I'm building retirement communities that are like for my fans. So if you're like 80 years old, but you don't want to, you want to, you don't want to go to some shitty retirement home. You want to go to the Margaritaville experience retirement home? Like, I'm always serving my fans and always thinking about like businesses that are like extensions of who I am. And so, you know, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side or founder side or operating
side, the more we felt comfortable about like a lot of the things that made people great, you know, in those spaces were things that were inherently things that made us successful in music. But I think in music, similar to venture, like music is a losing game. Like most of the songs we put out do not go, unless you're Bruno Mars, do not go on to be successful, you know, or at least like the success that, you know, you would talk about in Rolling Stones or Billboard or something like that. But you do learn something very important from every song you are building, you know, character and
history and, you know, reps in the gym and pattern recognition. And I think investing is a lot like that. Like everyone I spoke to, which was like hundreds of people was like, most of your investments are going to go to zero. And I was like, one comfortable with that, you know what I mean? But like, you have to like learn from that. You can't let it be, you know, like it can't set you back in terms of like your next deal. You have to like immediately get back to, you know, out there and, you know, stop looking at the scoreboard. Just keep your eyes on the field. Yeah. And I think that's, you know,
something that's really important. And I also think just like in general, like every time we put out a song, we have to like provide context to it. We have to create a story around it. We have to like reinvent ourselves and tell people like why we should pay attention to us to right now. And it's noisier than ever. And I think every company, whether you're in the enterprise B2B space or consumer side or have that same opportunity and hail the climb. And I think, you know, we can provide like a vantage point that is like very useful and helpful, I think to founders. That's not like
contrarian to what like the tier one Sequoia or, you know, whoever is offering. We just think that like worthy, you want the Avengers on your cap table. You want someone that has like a unique perspective and point of view that's looking at things differently, but wants the same outcome. And I think like music and our experiences in that and building our business there and our brand are like super relevant to like how we think about company building. I'd be curious to hear your reflections on like how you experience like sort of, you know, elite circles in music and entertainment and in tech and investing. You have real time with both. Yeah.
I'd just be curious, like how similar is it? Are there like some like fundamental differences? I feel like, I don't know why. Like, I mean, we have like plenty of awesome friends in the entertainment space that are successful, but like, it does feel like, like either there's like secret groups that I don't know about where everyone's hanging out. Like sometimes you see a wedding and you're like, Dan, like, so they all hang out. Like, you know what I mean? Like in Hollywood. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, what a cool, I wish I was part of that group. I mean, Drew and I are just like, we've always just kind of like, we love being social, but we're also just
like so locked in on like, you've got a lot to do. Yeah. Well, we're just like, like, we're, you know, we've never counted. No one lifted us up, you know what I mean? And we kind of have always felt like it's like, it's on our shoulders to like, figure this out and make the music. And like, if we're out gallivanting around, or whatever. Networking with celebrities. Yeah. Like, it's just like, I don't know. It doesn't feel natural to us. Doesn't make music. Yeah. It doesn't make music. Um, you know, and I think there's like value in it. Like going to fashion week is cool. Like you love fashion, Drew loves fashion. Like it's, you know, an amazing experience.
Like I don't care about it that much, you know? Totally. So I think we all seek out like things and interests that align with who our personalities are. But like, I honestly, like, I feel like we align with like the founder tech people world a lot more, uh, acutely because we're just like, you know, let's, you know, like put hours in the gym and like the harder we throw, like work through like our, you know, selves with these problems, the more we're resolved, we're going to get out what we put in. And, you know, we, I feel like we have a kind of an imposter syndrome with like the Hollywood side of things. Like, I don't feel
uniquely special. I feel great about myself, but I don't think like anyone should treat me, you know, differently for the things we've done in the past. And it's like, I'm more just like, what have I done? You know, today? Yeah. Then I am like, what I've done in the past. Yeah. I mean, I always think celebrity is a very funny thing. Cause it's like, no matter how famous somebody is, like, they're still a regular person, they wake up, they like wash their face in the mirror. Yeah. Like, and then they like look at me like, Oh yeah, I'm George Clooney. I forgot. You know, there, there must be some experience like that for everybody. Absolutely. I mean, I think like,
you know, I'm like the most average, I mean, it's kind of a joke about us where like any two white guys can kind of be the chain smokers and there's been plenty of people around the world and people like, Oh, I know who you are. And totally. And I'm so like grateful for that. Like, I don't think I'm like an ordinary person, but I think like to that end, like you can't, I don't know. I just don't think that's like how you get, like, I don't think like elitism and things like that are like how you, if we think we're like the greatest humans in the world, like, is our music going to begin to feel
like that, you know what I mean? And, and reflect that and like the relationships we have with people. And I think for us, it's our brand has always been built on like acknowledging everyone in the room. Like some of our superpowers are like, if you walk into a crowded space, we're going to make you feel like you're the biggest VIP here, even if I've never met you before. And I think like, that's how I wanted to be treated. I don't know, maybe it's like high school drama or something, you know, of things, but like that to me is, is more important than anything. And like, you know,
when we were coming up our music, like, we didn't want to be like wearing big diamond chain, I could afford diamond chains and super fancy cars, but it was like, I don't, that's not what we're about. Like, I wanted to like buy drinks for everyone at the bar. And I think it can take you away from the art. I think in business, it can take you away from the good stuff there too. Like, I do just feel like when people get lost in like materiality and ego and status, it is one of the ways people can like lose themselves. Well, you see it on the founder side too, like, you know, especially nowadays with like some of
the rounds these kids are raising and secondaries they're allowing to take out and press surrounding them. And I've certainly been involved in some of those companies and they're not bad people. It's like insecurities or things catching up to you at like inopportune times where you're like driving cars, you probably shouldn't be driving. Yeah. Like renting apartments or houses or going out too often because now like, finally people are inviting you places and want to talk about you. And it's like, don't lose sight of thing. I, you see it happen in LA with young artists all the time. It's like, they write a big song, they move to LA. Yeah.
They're like girls that want to take you out. You're going to clubs, playing your music. And then suddenly you've been in the studio for one or two days and now there's a huge pressure on you. Yeah. And you're not honestly really sure what you should be doing. And I think for us, we were just like, like, we're still living the dream, even though, you know, we're not going out every night. And, but we're like, this is what we wanted to do the whole time. Why are we not doing this, you know, right now? And I think, you know, balance is really important. I think like, you know, that doesn't mean to say that you should like this 996 shit is the path to success. But like,
I don't blame anyone for having those things. Like we're all kind of the circumstances of like our products of our environment, but it is a shame when you see it. And, but I also always understand when people are going through that. Yeah. It's like, um, somebody recently said to me that I think stuff that just like money and power, fame, like that whole sort of sphere of things, it doesn't necessarily corrupt, but it will definitely make more potent, whatever natural inclinations you have. Obviously everybody has like light and dark inclinations. So what I've heard of it was someone was like saying, like, I always ask someone like,
what is more important to them? Like money, power, or like fame. And there's like a right, you know what I mean? Like the right answer is just like money. Like fame is like, you're chasing something like egotistical or is like, I don't know. And I don't know if that's like a fair question. No, I think, I think understanding what drives people and you know, there's probably some other things in there. Some people just are like out of that whole game entirely. But I do think, you know, of those three different people are very driven by different ones. Totally. I mean, you see it, like, I mean, there's no more relevant place to seeing this than going to
somewhere like central in the summer where it's like, you have billionaires that like, you know, can't get into a restaurant. Just cause you're a billionaire doesn't mean they're like, but then Elton John pulls up who's also probably a billionaire, you know, but it's Elton fucking John, you know, he's getting that table. And so like, we're all chasing access and relevancy. And I think, you know, in getting to know some of the artists we've worked with and just people that we've met over the course of our time, like everyone is struggling with something. Everyone doesn't feel relevant enough. Everyone is like, you know, like even Coldplay, I remember I was like,
dude, they sell out 10 Wembleys instantly. You know, that's like 600,000, 700,000 tickets. And, and he's just like, but he wants kids, you know, the next generation uncorrupted though, to me, I think everyone's corrupted on some level. I think he's definitely probably on the lower end spectrum of that. Like he is really principled person and, and, you know, it's just an amazing guy, but I think we're all still, no matter what you tell yourself, there's like, I don't care. We tell the world one thing, but inside there's something else really driving you or, or keeping you up at night. And I know, I feel it myself.
Well, you're in an interesting spot because you've, you've done a lot. You're still young. You've got two very good businesses going and you probably have like a busy decade ahead where it's like, you could, you could, you could go a lot of ways. Do you take it as it comes? Or you like, you've got a particular mission in a place you want to get everything? It's important. Like Drew and I probably don't do this enough where it's like, you have a conversation about like, what do we want to do this year? You know what I mean? Like, what do we hope to gain? Like, what is the net? Like, do we, are we both on the same page that we want to make
and play music for the next five years? And you're like, and it's not like surprising the answers we have, but it's like surprising that we haven't had the conversations. You know, you also have to balance your like objectives with the reality of everything. Like music is not a young man's game. Like we both want to have families. Like we definitely can't be, well, you could tour as much as we want right now with kids, but like, what kind of impact does that have on the kids, on your relationships with your wife? Like, these are all things you have to consider that you maybe don't
necessarily have all the answers for right now. I was in the David Sandberg podcast and he was like, I'm only, I only think 24 hours at a time, you know what I mean? And I was like, I don't know if that's a bad or good thing. Like, yeah, like, I think it's, that's, that's a, you know, important way to stay locked in and continue to prioritize the things that are important for you in the short term. But like, you know, you have to like build, like, I don't didn't expect Mantis to be a tier one fund off the bat. You know what I mean? I knew it would take 10, 15, 20 years of hard work to get there.
So you have to think on those timelines a little bit to get there and understand that, like, you know, we were taking 50K allocations and fund one into great companies because like, we understood that's where we sat. And it was more important to be in that logo than it was to like be outside. And I think in music, you know, similarly, like, where are we investing our time in singles and albums? You know, is it on the show? That's the most important thing. Is it, you know, actually pulling out of the market? I mean, we're so available. Like, if you want to see us, you can come see a Vegas pretty much every weekend. Is that a bad thing? It's not a bad thing,
but there's a trade off. It's a thing, you know, it's a trade off. And so, you know, I think it's just being aware of those things, having those conversations are so critical. I'm lucky to have a partner where you can have like, even though we're not the same person, we have, we're very more aligned than more. Most people are incredibly lucky. Yeah. And you get to like, you know, he'll say things that I'm like, Oh, that's, I wasn't really thinking about it in that context, but that is super relevant, but it scares the shit out of me. I mean, like, you know, my dad died, I think he was like 54, you know? So I'm like only, Yeah. And he felt so old, like mature to me.
Mine was 67. Yeah. And it's just a weird context when you like put in that perspective of like, Oh my God, I'm already not far off this guy. Am I like better shape? Am I better look of second? Well, you know, they're looking more successful. Am I a bigger asshole? Like, well, I have left, you know, an impact on the world on some, some level, but, uh, but I think you, you know, you can't lose your mind, not being able to control the things you obviously can't control. Yeah. And, and just like have fun. I, that's something I think like drew, I've been saying a lot lately, which is like, to me, like momentum is just the most important thing with anything.
And it doesn't necessarily mean like momentum and like our songs are streaming more or making more money this year. Or they like momentum comes in all different shapes and sizes. And it's like, I want to have fun when we make music in the studio and we talk about planning a tour or what our show looks like. You know, I want to, when we're discussing deals, it's like a lot of it's not fun in the traditional sense, but it's like, damn, we're like in here for this great deal. Like, I can't believe we're, you know, like having these conversations with these people. And, and I think that to me is like what drives me, you know, it's just like every day you're kind of like,
you know, a couple steps forward is like very meaningful when you zoom out in the long run. Um, and try not to get wrapped up in the like hysteria of like, damn, this song failed, you know, keeping it something where you're happy to win, not just like sad to lose. I feel like it's so important. A hundred percent. I mean, I told you about a deal I'm like freaking stressing out about right now. And I'm like, already in my head, I'm like, this is probably going to say no, you know, like our zero. And I'm like, and what does that, what would that make me feel like? And what does that mean? And for the future? And like, do I want to help this person anymore after this? Like,
you know, what kind of, and I'm just like, no, of course I'm going to fucking help this person. And of course I'm going to be bummed out. And of course I'm going to try again the next time. And, you know, but like also, you know, this guy's answering my texts every time I answer. He's not, you know, there's, he could just be like, no, you know, like, and so, you know, you kind of, I'm an optimist in that sense where it's like, you know, it could be a lot, a lot worse. It's an awesome mindset. Alex, this is great. I'm going to let you get back to your day. Thanks a ton for doing this with me. Let's go. All right. Hell yeah.
They're watching us. Yeah. This guy's just fucking zipping around. He's just trying to watch that. Yeah. We'll post in a couple weeks. Yeah. But I just, dude, I had no idea you have fans like that. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.