AI Frontier Lab Is Essentially Doomed | Open AI Offered U.S. Equity, Xbox Is In Trouble, Post-AGI

Transcript

Sam Altman trying to give 5% of the government for regulatory capture and all this politics is so bad, right? Because all of a sudden it makes the game not a fair and open game that at least you can play with rules. It becomes a game of politics where people feel gated out or gated in. And that is the worst scenario for the long-term success of the country. I think it's we should just buy sports teams and real estate. That's what Josh Kushner is doing is buying more sports teams. Turns out the most prolific video gamer is a 37-year-old man. It used to be much younger like kids and teens and now it's 37. Insinuating that video gaming has actually not stayed as popular as it once was with our generation. More or less. Hello, friends. Welcome to More or Less. How was everyone's 4th of July? So good. Love them. Another year. America turned 250. I love this holiday. I think it's a great holiday. It's the best holiday. I think it's an under-hyped holiday, actually. I feel it might be third place. Could not agree more. Okay, say more, Britt. Say more. Third place? Obviously we have Halloween and Christmas, though those steal the show. But I feel 4th of July is third. No, 4th of July is better. No. 4th of July is way better. 4th of July is the only holiday we all celebrate. And let me tell you about what 4th of July in Montana is like. Oh, I bet it was epic. It's this unbelievable display of American pure unbridled competition. Who can shoot off the most ridiculous fireworks? It's amazing. Does everyone have their fingers? There's no rules about fireworks in Montana. There's no laws. There's no places you can do fireworks. You just do them here. And also, there's a bull in the parade. There are wild animals coming through the downtown parade. That's so good. Yeah, it's definitely not a California parade. It was interesting. They had four guys guarding the bull as if they were going to stop the bull if the bull got in trouble. Yeah, it was pretty hilarious. I love that. We got only hellos and Merry 4th of Julys from people in Jackson Hole, which I thought was telling. We weren't there, but it was 100%. Everyone we knew in Jackson wished us happy 4th of July. No one else wished us happy. We were in Tahoe, which I think is the most American place to do the 4th of July. I love all these places, but Tahoe is pure America. It is max America. There were no bulls, though. I think we missed out. Yeah, that's because you haven't been to Flathead Lake yet, Sam. Ironic, since we own the land there, but it's true. The big problem with Tahoe this year was one of the best parts of 4th of July in Tahoe. Is the military hardware that comes out and buzzes the lake. Yeah. And I have to assume it was just all repositioned, either for Wars or Washington, D.C. displays. Because I only saw one F-16 all day. As opposed to, usually get the big C-1, 240, C-140. You get everything. And I feel there was very low military presence in Lake Tahoe. It was all in D.C., let's be clear. Yeah, I think that's what happened. Guys, you wouldn't believe this. And this was the best part. We woke up for the 4th of July and, of course, had our children saluting an American flag because that's what you do. And you know what flew by? A bald eagle flew right by and landed. That's awesome. And it was a beautiful... Wait, I saw a bald eagle on the 4th of July, too. It was a max bald eagle. Same. That's amazing. And it was great because it basically photobombed my flag shot and then landed in a tree. And I'm, this is a sign from God. No, I think it's a sign that Sam should be a politician, the we talked about in the last episode. No, Britt, you got to drop this. No one ran with it, so you're not running with it. You don't see. Life is long. He said, we'll see. The door's open, Jess. Life is long. I that. Life is long. I that very much. Okay, so America celebrated. Taylor. We celebrated Taylor. We can circle back to this. I got to reposition because I have a cleaning service. That's what the noise is behind you. Well, I don't know. The 5 p.m. is interesting... I'm not going to comment. We can cut this part. No, it's fine. You can leave it. I'll just go to a different room. But meanwhile, back in the land of technology, I'd say it was a light news week. Oh, they're not done here either. Where am I supposed to go? I'll go bathroom? Sam, you can shut off. We do not need to hear this. Go into Lion's room. This is ridiculous. It's... Go into Lion's room. There's a desk in there. Who starts cleaning at 5 p.m.? People that have multiple cleaning jobs during the day. Okay, so what's happening in tech land? We have more AI models coming out. But actually, I think we should start. But Sam does have interesting points of view on this, but we don't have to start. I'll go to the bathroom? [SPEAKER_02] Sam, you can shut off. [SPEAKER_02] We do not need to hear this. Go into Lion's room. [SPEAKER_02] This is ridiculous. [SPEAKER_02] Go into Lion's room. There's a desk in there. Who starts cleaning at 5 p.m.? People that have multiple cleaning jobs during the day. [SPEAKER_02] Okay, so what's happening in tech land? [SPEAKER_02] We have more AI models coming out. [SPEAKER_02] But actually, I think we should start. [SPEAKER_03] But Sam does have interesting points of view on this, but we don't have to start. [SPEAKER_02] Is this idea building steam that the government should take stakes in technology companies directly. [SPEAKER_03] We've talked a little bit about this. [SPEAKER_03] The latest headline, which I think is directionally right, but specifically wrong, is that OpenAI offered the government a 5% stake. [SPEAKER_03] I think things are way more fluid than that, but generally under discussion. [SPEAKER_03] What do you guys think? [SPEAKER_03] This is a big speaking of America 250 is America 251. [SPEAKER_03] What an abject failure of our capital markets that because these companies have not gone public and the American public has no ability to buy into the equity of these companies and participate in the wealth creation. [SPEAKER_03] Instead, we have to have the U.S. government buy a position in order to give people a stake. [SPEAKER_03] That's ridiculous. [SPEAKER_03] No, they're not going to buy it. They're being given it. Yeah, that's even worse. [SPEAKER_01] It's ridiculous. [SPEAKER_01] It is ridiculous. [SPEAKER_01] And I did CNBC on this last week. [SPEAKER_01] It's the most un-American thing for the fourth of all I can imagine. [SPEAKER_01] But here's the thing. [SPEAKER_01] You don't need to be explicit that the more or less readers are getting your CNBC hot takes a week later. [SPEAKER_01] So give us something else you didn't say on CNBC. Because come on. My personal take on it is that it's a complete fuck you to capitalism in a way that's awful. But here's the interesting thing. What I said is you can't hate the game. [SPEAKER_03] I'm sorry, don't hate the player, hate the game. Because here's the thing. The real story of this... [SPEAKER_02] Or just get rid of the bad laws. [SPEAKER_02] It's not about the laws. This is a situation where you have two things going on. One, you have companies, OpenAI being the poster child, who are pretending that a commodity is not a commodity and they're screwed, right? And the only way is... Say more. Unpack that for people. You basically mean whose business margins are going to go to zero because they'll be commoditized? That's what you mean? This is... The business is multiplying large numbers. [SPEAKER_03] It's globally liquid. [SPEAKER_03] There's no natural barrier. [SPEAKER_03] So it's not... [SPEAKER_03] Energy has more barriers than this because it's hard to ship energy. It's not hard to ship multiplication output. Same... On top of that, there's no regulatory framework, right? Where PG&E is a regulated monopoly. So the only way that these companies survive is by embedding themselves and trying to create regional monopolies, right? So that they can charge more money for multiplying big numbers, right? That's the only way they survive. And it's the most cynical thing in the world to say to the government, hey, here's 5%. Which, by the way, the idea that that is somehow a dividend for America is, you're thanked. [SPEAKER_02] That's 100 bucks per person at a... [SPEAKER_02] It's a travesty. It's a classic pirate splitting the booty. It's, I'll take 95%. Here's 5%. Congratulations. It's ridiculous. It's not even 5%. It's 0.0000000000005%. Whatever it is, it's ridiculous. But the basic point is, I do actually have to give Sam Altman some credit. Not as a business person, but as a politician. Because I do think this is, if you're in his position where one, you're trying to sell a commodity. [SPEAKER_01] You're set up where you have to have a premium pricing on a commodity. [SPEAKER_01] And you're screwed. And then, two, even within the set of AI companies, let's pretend the political win is shift. Where this becomes palpable and gets done. [SPEAKER_02] Of course, Sam Altman is the one out promoting it because he has the least to lose. [SPEAKER_02] He's not a real company like Google or Meta or someone who actually 5% is meaningful. [SPEAKER_02] And he's not even winning the pure AI race, Anthropic is. [SPEAKER_02] So if your competitors are going to lose more by having to give up 5% to the government than you are, then hog wild. [SPEAKER_02] Right? [SPEAKER_02] So it is one of those things where very cynically, I think it's a very smart strategy politics move. [SPEAKER_02] But the problem is... [SPEAKER_02] I think you're overcomplicating it, man. [SPEAKER_02] Go, man. [SPEAKER_02] Dave, give it to us. [SPEAKER_02] Give it to us. [SPEAKER_02] I just think it's way more simple. [SPEAKER_02] AI is less popular in the United States than... [SPEAKER_01] Than Jeffrey Epstein. [SPEAKER_03] And Jeffrey Epstein. [SPEAKER_03] It's literally less popular than Jeffrey Epstein. [SPEAKER_03] That's the most amazing part. We've talked about this before, but this is an incredibly serious problem. And in fact, by the time this pod comes out, we will have announced the Open Claw Foundation. Yay! Congrats! And the Open Claw Foundation is explicitly making its literal mission to bring people closer to AI, not to drive them further apart. And I just think that that's the simple thing here, which is that AI is less popular than ICE and Jeffrey Epstein. And so it doesn't matter if you're OpenAI and Anthropic or any other frontier lab, you have to do everything in your power to do marketing things that could possibly improve this. And that's the only explanation for this. [SPEAKER_03] The only explanation for doing this is that you can have a nice press headline that everybody in America gets a piece of the AI stuff. [SPEAKER_03] And so therefore, you should care about it and not hate it so much. [SPEAKER_01] I just think it's that simple. [SPEAKER_01] I don't know. [SPEAKER_01] And I just think that that's the simple thing here, which is that AI is less popular than ICE and Jeffrey Epstein. And so it doesn't matter if you're OpenAI and Anthropic or any other frontier lab, you have to do everything in your power to do marketing things that could possibly improve this. And that's the only explanation for this. [SPEAKER_03] The only explanation for doing this is that you can have a nice press headline that everybody in America gets a piece of the AI stuff. [SPEAKER_03] And so, therefore, you should care about it and not hate it so much. [SPEAKER_01] I just think it's that simple. [SPEAKER_01] I don't know. [SPEAKER_01] I think this is more about getting your models right. [SPEAKER_01] I hear you. [SPEAKER_01] Look, because there's no other rational reason to do it. It just doesn't make sense. [SPEAKER_01] I kind of like the Trump accounts. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Fill people in on the Trump accounts. And I don't want to get to Britt on her thoughts. I think Trump accounts are amazing. [SPEAKER_01] The other problem in the United States is that people hate capitalism. [SPEAKER_01] Both capitalism and AI are extremely unpopular with certain parts of the populace. [SPEAKER_03] I don't hate capitalism. [SPEAKER_03] Definitely here in Montana. [SPEAKER_03] Wait, Montana hates capitalism? No, Montana loves freedom. What are you talking about, Britt? I mean, technology, venture capital, they're anti. [SPEAKER_01] No, but that's different from capitalism. [SPEAKER_05] Okay, Dave, give us the Trump accounts 101 because there was big news on this front this week, too. Trump accounts are the idea to give every child born in the United States a stake in the American capital economy. So you get a Trump account upon birth. There's some guardrails around this, like children born in a certain window and then everyone after that. [SPEAKER_05] Well, it's also zip code based, I think. [SPEAKER_03] It's for poor kids. [SPEAKER_03] No, any kid born in a certain window, Sam. [SPEAKER_01] And I believe it starts with $1,000 that has been put into your account by the U.S. government. [SPEAKER_01] And then you have private individuals such as Michael Dell and his wife and several others who are giving $250 to every kid in America. [SPEAKER_01] Interestingly, people like Cardi B who are giving $250 to everyone in her hometown and certain zip codes around it. So there's a lot of people contributing to these Trump accounts, which give kids a stake in the capitalist economy of the United States. So that's the idea. [SPEAKER_01] Well, it's basically in a world where entitlements and retirement plans are decimated and not going to exist for them. [SPEAKER_01] The idea is let them benefit with the market and the investment, which I think is great. [SPEAKER_01] It makes a lot of sense. [SPEAKER_01] And I think I read that if you keep compounding these over time, theoretically, by the time you're 55, you would have $13 million. [SPEAKER_01] Right. But this is also the same math that goes on TikTok of people being you can compound your way to hundreds of millions of dollars by saving lattes. [SPEAKER_02] So it's not really. I would that's with a caveat. It's basically if they've compounded, you can get into millions in 20 years. [SPEAKER_05] If Trump accounts compound to millions in nominal, then we are in a very rough spot. Right. Is what I would say. That's not going to actually happen. And a couple more just factual details. [SPEAKER_02] So Brad Gerstner of Altimeter played a big role in establishing this. [SPEAKER_02] Michael Dell. And also what you can do is they, Brad and Michael, are trying to get people like Gwen Shotwell, the COO of SpaceX, to donate some of their equity directly. And you can do it by zip code. [SPEAKER_03] Which she did, I believe. [SPEAKER_03] And she donated hundreds of millions of dollars in SpaceX to Trump accounts. [SPEAKER_03] So what's the deal on that, Jess? [SPEAKER_03] This is a great question because Gwen Shotwell, by all accounts, is amazing. [SPEAKER_03] Are you asking what the tax treatment was? [SPEAKER_01] Because I don't know. [SPEAKER_03] No, no, no. Well, that is interesting. [SPEAKER_02] But I was going to ask you your take on her doing it and not Elon. [SPEAKER_02] Right. [SPEAKER_03] Because clearly that was it was OK, I'll do that. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, why hasn't Elon donated to the Trump accounts? [SPEAKER_02] Maybe he will. [SPEAKER_02] What do you think the vibe is? [SPEAKER_02] I think that's interesting. [SPEAKER_02] So my account is actually. [SPEAKER_02] Seems like it's just gaining momentum and people are doing it because they want to. [SPEAKER_05] I don't know. [SPEAKER_02] I think that's right, Dave. [SPEAKER_01] I also think Gwen has been really interesting. She's maintained a pretty low profile for such an accomplished COO, especially a woman. [SPEAKER_03] I've only interviewed her once. [SPEAKER_01] I've tried to interview her many more times. [SPEAKER_01] And I think she's just been very under the radar, obviously has a busy job. And it was very clear that it was with her husband, too, that they did it. [SPEAKER_03] And so I think it was just a very personal thing they wanted to do, honestly. [SPEAKER_03] And I think when you come into that much wealth all at once, you obviously think deeply about what impact you want to have, too. [SPEAKER_03] So I don't think there was much strategy between her or Elon. [SPEAKER_03] Really? I bet there was strategy. I don't know. I think she just really wanted to do it. [SPEAKER_03] It's probably a simple strategy, actually, just that it went public. [SPEAKER_03] Now the stock's liquid. And so now start donating, right? [SPEAKER_02] That's a pretty typical thing to do. [SPEAKER_03] I can see why it's a really appealing option for someone who just came into that much money as well. And who wouldn't. There are a lot of philanthropic options. [SPEAKER_01] But this seems like a really cool one. [SPEAKER_01] Well, I do think the contrast of that versus the yet another uproar about Mackenzie Scott Bezos. [SPEAKER_01] Right. [SPEAKER_01] And people being upset about how she's treated philanthropy is quite interesting. Well, I think people have to shut up about judging how Mackenzie Scott Bezos has done her philanthropy. Or anyone. Oh, why? [SPEAKER_02] To be honest, I really do. I can see why it's a really appealing option for someone who just came into that much money as well. And who wouldn't—there are a lot of philanthropic options. [SPEAKER_01] But this seems like a really cool one. [SPEAKER_01] Well, I do think the contrast of that versus the yet another uproar about Mackenzie Scott Bezos is quite interesting. [SPEAKER_01] Right. [SPEAKER_01] And people being upset about how she's treated philanthropy. Well, I think people have to shut up about judging how Mackenzie Scott Bezos has done her philanthropy. Or anyone. [SPEAKER_03] Oh, why? To be honest, I really do. [SPEAKER_02] And Sam, I saw one of your tweets that irked me because you were asking if any of these organizations—I know you have—you think nonprofits don't make sense as a structure. And one could have an interesting argument about that. [SPEAKER_01] But I don't know what's public or not. [SPEAKER_03] But Mackenzie Scott Bezos has supported in a super meaningful way so many organizations in a truly meaningful way. [SPEAKER_03] She just doesn't go around and do podcasts about it. [SPEAKER_03] And I think that's really admirable and people don't have to make the same choices themselves. [SPEAKER_03] But why on earth? And if any other man was just doing this, to be honest, it would not even face an iota of the criticism that she faces for living her life. [SPEAKER_03] No, I totally agree with that. [SPEAKER_03] Look, she can do whatever she wants. [SPEAKER_03] Capitalism says she should do whatever she wants. [SPEAKER_03] I mean, if Taylor Swift gave away that much money in that way, haters gonna hate. [SPEAKER_03] But everyone would be like, oh, awesome, Taylor Swift. [SPEAKER_03] I don't know. I think the fact of altruism is stupid because I think that they have a really false sense of how they can calculate. Mackenzie Scott Bezos is not an effective altruist at all. [SPEAKER_03] No, that's almost the point I'm gonna make. If anything, she's the anti-effective altruist. That was the point I'm gonna make, which is I would say there's effective altruism on one end of the spectrum, which I'm sympathetic to the idea. I just think those guys are smoking crack when they do their calculations. [SPEAKER_02] Right. [SPEAKER_03] And their assumption of how they can model the future. And then there's Mackenzie Scott Bezos, who is literally the opposite. [SPEAKER_02] It's also become a runaway ideology. [SPEAKER_02] So of course it's ridiculous. [SPEAKER_02] But the point is they're just very extremes. [SPEAKER_02] The extreme one is I'm gonna try to calculate for maximum impact everything and pretend I can do that and do that well, which you cannot. [SPEAKER_02] The other extreme is I'm just gonna write checks. Fuck it. [SPEAKER_01] Right. And I do agree with you, Jess. First of all, we have no idea how much research she puts in or doesn't just because she doesn't talk about it. [SPEAKER_02] How do you know, Sam? [SPEAKER_02] Well, I've heard a lot of things. [SPEAKER_02] I've heard a lot of things. [SPEAKER_02] Can we get back to Trump accounts? The speed at which she's gone from here's an idea to here's a hundred million dollars and it is not giving space. This will shock you, but not everyone knows what they're talking about. This will just shock you. [SPEAKER_02] Trust but verify. [SPEAKER_03] I think Sam's just reading TikTok and Instagram. [SPEAKER_01] I have been on the board of a nonprofit she has donated money to and there was a process. Let's just say that. [SPEAKER_03] How long was that process? [SPEAKER_03] Well, it was no shorter than the process that other big name philanthropists who have foundations next to their last name go through. [SPEAKER_05] So people have got to stop judging. [SPEAKER_03] Are there more important questions in the world than this? [SPEAKER_03] Well, when you give away $26 billion really quickly, the question is a reasonable thing for society to ask. But is it? [SPEAKER_03] Who cares? [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, is it? [SPEAKER_03] Sam, you could give it away however the hell you want. [SPEAKER_02] Oh, to be clear. [SPEAKER_03] I'm not saying she can do whatever she wants. [SPEAKER_03] I'm just saying I'm not... [SPEAKER_02] I'm a free... [SPEAKER_02] Go nuts. [SPEAKER_02] Do whatever you want. [SPEAKER_02] But I don't think... [SPEAKER_02] This is fucking America, man. [SPEAKER_02] Free country. [SPEAKER_02] Donate your money how you want. [SPEAKER_02] The part of freedom is to have opinions about everything. [SPEAKER_02] We know you have opinions about everything. [SPEAKER_02] Sure. You can have opinions. [SPEAKER_01] I have the freedom to not think they're interesting. [SPEAKER_01] But yes, you can have opinions. Okay. Let's go back to this government thing. [SPEAKER_03] So we can agree that we don't feel great about the government taking stakes in tech companies. [SPEAKER_03] Sam, you made a point too. [SPEAKER_03] This does happen. [SPEAKER_03] But it happens in distressed bailout situations, right? [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. [SPEAKER_03] Well, this is my point. The only time—if you look at the history of America, we have taken positions in companies historically. [SPEAKER_03] I see. So that's the argument you're making. It's a distressed company. This is a distressed buyout. It's a distressed company. [SPEAKER_02] It's just... [SPEAKER_01] They're basically putting... [SPEAKER_01] It doesn't think it's a distressed buyout. But they're... And this is the thing, if you look at history and people are really mad about this, go back to '08, people are like, what if the banks fail. But in history, there have been several episodes where the US has taken stakes in companies, the government. [SPEAKER_03] Mostly banks and airlines and car companies, right? Well, there's also Intel. Intel more recently. To inject cash to bail them out because they're important, right? And this is funny because there's no cash being proposed. [SPEAKER_02] There's no... But it is also one of those things where the only way we do this is for distressed situations. [SPEAKER_03] It's crazy for us to not do this. [SPEAKER_02] But in history, there have been several episodes where the US has taken stakes in companies, the government. [SPEAKER_03] Mostly banks and airlines and car companies, right? Well, there's also Intel. [SPEAKER_02] Intel more recently. [SPEAKER_02] To inject cash to bail them out because they're important, right? [SPEAKER_02] And this is funny because there's no cash being proposed. [SPEAKER_02] There's no... But it is also one of those things where the only way we do this is for distressed situations. [SPEAKER_03] It's crazy for us to not do this. So they're distressed. They're distressed. If this was cash, your argument would fly. [SPEAKER_02] But because it's not, I think the only real argument is this is marketing to try to make AI have a better brand and give everybody a stake. [SPEAKER_02] Well, I just think what is marketing to who? [SPEAKER_02] I think it's marketing to Donald Trump and it's marketing. [SPEAKER_02] It's not marketing to Joe Schmo, is my view. [SPEAKER_01] I don't think normal people know or care. That's my take. No, Britt, I agree. [SPEAKER_01] Britt, I agree. [SPEAKER_01] I actually think that about the Trump accounts too. [SPEAKER_02] I actually think that the Trump account thing is completely disconnected from society. [SPEAKER_05] Well, I hope that changes though. [SPEAKER_05] I actually Trump accounts. I'll say it again. No, I understand that you them. [SPEAKER_01] I them too. [SPEAKER_01] I actually do question whether or not anybody knows or cares. [SPEAKER_02] I would love to see the engagement metrics of people who have been to the Trump accounts website or who have read any of this news about the government investing in these companies. [SPEAKER_02] I do think it's cool that Robinhood built the app for them. [SPEAKER_01] That's cool. [SPEAKER_01] So Britt, what would you do both economically and also from a brand perspective? [SPEAKER_01] And then we can move on because we have talked about if you're America. [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. [SPEAKER_05] No. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. If you're AI companies wanting to move up and maybe be more popular than Jeffrey Epstein, is there an economic solution to doing that or not? [SPEAKER_03] I mean, an economic solution to doing it? Meaning how do you get more capital in people's hands for using AI more? [SPEAKER_03] No, she's asking Kirly Brand. [SPEAKER_03] I've heard her say both. [SPEAKER_03] I'm sorry I'm asking both. [SPEAKER_03] Well, I think let's take the economic first because I'm inundated with op-eds from people who think they have ways to reform the tax code or reform this or that to get. [SPEAKER_05] No, we're fucked. [SPEAKER_01] We're fucked. [SPEAKER_03] We're fucked. [SPEAKER_03] It's really. [SPEAKER_03] Reform the tax code for what, Jess? [SPEAKER_03] To share the wealth of AI more broadly across society in part to change the perception of AI. [SPEAKER_03] Here's an idea. [SPEAKER_03] You already have a pretty amazing business in selling tokens and taking a rake on your tokens. [SPEAKER_03] Stop building apps to compete with everyone in your ecosystem and start building a developer ecosystem that's actually healthy. Simple. Nobody wants to do it. [SPEAKER_03] Well, that's what I was going to say. People hate AI because they're afraid it's going to take their jobs and their opportunity away. Well, because the AI people have been telling them it's going to take their jobs for years now. That's why they're. [SPEAKER_01] Then the double whammy is, oh, and by the way, if you build anything on top of our tokens, we're going to watch what you're building. [SPEAKER_01] And then we're going to directly compete with you and destroy you. [SPEAKER_05] And it's really not. [SPEAKER_05] It's really not complicated. [SPEAKER_02] These businesses are already making so much money. [SPEAKER_02] No, they're not. [SPEAKER_01] They're losing so much money. [SPEAKER_01] Let's be clear. Sam, they're both making and losing money. They are making an enormous amount of revenue. One is net losing. One appears to be net making. [SPEAKER_01] The one who needs a government bailout. [SPEAKER_01] Maybe it is a bailout. But, Dave, let's pick up on this, okay? Because, A, I see what you're saying. [SPEAKER_03] But, B, all the great platform companies I can think of also have owned and operated apps. [SPEAKER_03] Take Apple. That's fine. [SPEAKER_03] They weren't growing this fast. [SPEAKER_03] And the revenue curves were not growing this. [SPEAKER_03] This happened in under three years. How are you going to convince a company to make more money, especially one that has CapEx estimates of the trillion? How are you going to convince them to make less money when their CapEx forecasts? I'm not trying to convince them to make less money. I'm saying empower your developer ecosystem to make maximum amount of money. It's not enough people to matter. [SPEAKER_01] I don't agree. [SPEAKER_03] Every business on earth is using these tokens right now. [SPEAKER_03] Here's my macro narrative: America was very, very blessed for a few hundred years with Terra Nova. And, sure, we stole it from the Indians, right? [SPEAKER_01] And, sure, it wasn't quite truly Terra Nova. [SPEAKER_01] I don't think we're going to get into Terra Nova in this pod, but here we go. [SPEAKER_01] No, but this isn't. [SPEAKER_01] What did we do? [SPEAKER_02] Sam, speak English. Nobody knows what you're talking about. I don't know what Terra Nova is, but I am part Indian. [SPEAKER_03] Okay, we're 250 years old. [SPEAKER_03] We just landed. [SPEAKER_01] Britt's part Comanche Indian, so if you fuck this up, Sam, you're in real trouble. [SPEAKER_01] No, he's honoring you, Britt. [SPEAKER_01] It's already been fucked up, Dave. [SPEAKER_05] I'm honoring your land, Britt. [SPEAKER_01] In a convoluted way. [SPEAKER_01] Just roll with it. [SPEAKER_01] Here's the deal. [SPEAKER_03] It's super simple. [SPEAKER_03] America loves capitalism. [SPEAKER_03] Why does it love capitalism? [SPEAKER_03] Well, we basically have this amazing immigrant pond for 200 years, which said, hey, come hang out over here, your most driven, most interesting people who want to make lives in this house. And good news, we did the Louisiana Purchase. We got all this new land for you. Don't worry about the Indians. As long as you have a shovel and can work pretty hard, you can go west and do really well. [SPEAKER_01] Just roll with it. [SPEAKER_01] Here's the deal. [SPEAKER_03] It's super simple. [SPEAKER_03] America loves capitalism. [SPEAKER_03] Why does it love capitalism? [SPEAKER_03] Well, we have this amazing immigrant pond for 200 years, which said, hey, come hang out over here, your most driven, most interesting people who want to make lives in this house. And good news, we did the Louisiana Purchase. We got all this new land for you. Don't worry about the Indians. As long as you have a shovel and can work pretty hard, you can go west and do really well, 20 acres and a mule style, right? And so that was great for a super long time. Then we got industrialized and it worked again. Then in our generation, the internet was a huge boon for us because it was digital Terra Nova, right? That we could colonize, become important, get rich on, et cetera. And the problem is with each successive wave, the number of people, the number of humans you need to dig shit and share the wealth goes down. It's when you build the real world, you need a fuckload of people. All those people get paid. When you build internet companies, you don't need as many people. Fewer people get paid. AI, you have even smaller teams. So the reality is you have more wealth, but fewer humans who are dealt into it, right? And that is what is happening with technological leverage. And so I'm quite sympathetic to the fact as much as I love capitalism and I'm hyper pro capitalist, these proposals were, oh, if only we change the tax code, there's something massively. I don't think so. I think the only thing you can do is have a real meritocracy and say, look, it's not all going to work out for everyone, but if you work really hard, you're going to have a shot, right? That's the upshot. And that is why I'm so obsessed with meritocracy and its combination to capitalism and freedom. Freedom, meritocracy, capitalism. That's the trifecta, right? [SPEAKER_02] That we have to protect because the world is otherwise going to get more unequal and more fucked. And the reality is when you start chipping at capitalism, you chip at freedom. And people are going to do that if they feel the game is rigged or unfair, which is why Sam Altman trying to give 5% of the government to the government for regulatory capture and all this politics is so bad, right? Because all of a sudden it makes the game not a fair and open game that at least you can play with rules. It becomes a game of politics where people feel gated out or gated in. And that is the worst scenario for the long-term success of the country. You need a free press to have those three things, just so you know. Free speech is critical. [SPEAKER_02] And I think it'd be very hard for anyone to argue. [SPEAKER_02] I don't support the concept of a free press. [SPEAKER_02] I just think it needs to be powerful. [SPEAKER_02] It needs to be profitable. [SPEAKER_03] You can't have a free press on principle. [SPEAKER_02] The free press needs to be a good enough business to defend itself. [SPEAKER_02] What does this have to do with these frontier labs being good platforms and being companies that share the wealth with their developers? [SPEAKER_02] That's what I'm actually trying to get at here, which is that these companies have become enormous faster than any organization in history. [SPEAKER_02] Right. [SPEAKER_02] And they claim to have altruistic, their PBCs, you know, they want to do the right thing, keep everyone safe. Why aren't they saying the same thing about their platform partners? [SPEAKER_01] Right. [SPEAKER_01] Why aren't they actually giving more to their ecosystems so that their ecosystems can participate? [SPEAKER_01] Any capitalist enterprise that claims to be doing good or have a double bottom line is always going to be deeply suspect. [SPEAKER_01] Right. That's the biggest trick the devil ever pulled. Sam, I'm not asking about double bottom line. [SPEAKER_01] I'm saying these companies are making enormous amounts of revenue. [SPEAKER_02] Sure. [SPEAKER_02] And they could share a larger percentage of that with their partners. [SPEAKER_02] But they're not making enormous amount of profits yet, Dave. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I agree with Jess. Their sustainability is their profitability. I understand. But the cost of these models, everything is moving quickly the other direction. [SPEAKER_01] Look, I think it goes back to the thing we've talked about many times in the pod, which is, is everyone a developer or no one a developer? [SPEAKER_03] Is everyone a platform partner or is no one a platform partner? [SPEAKER_03] From my perspective, the problem is I have all sorts of software running just for me on these stuff. [SPEAKER_01] I wouldn't consider myself a platform partner. I wouldn't consider myself a developer on them. I'm literally just making the shit I want. And it's really hard to see what that ecosystem looks like, because it really does mean that these developers are just consumers. Right. And if they're just consumers, then how do you deal with it? What are you going to deal with everyone? Then you just don't charge them. What does that even mean? You're not making any money off of any of these apps yet, are you, Sam? So it's not like they can do a profit share or something with you. [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I make tens of dollars. [SPEAKER_02] There are several people who have subscribed to my children's podcast. That is all AI generated. So Dave, I'm really intrigued by your comment. [SPEAKER_05] I haven't thought, I think it's really interesting about the developer ecosystems. [SPEAKER_05] And obviously you're just in the center of that. [SPEAKER_02] So no one is a better point of view. [SPEAKER_02] My sense is that these companies. [SPEAKER_02] Even if I weren't, this would still be my point of view. No, I know, I'm not, that wasn't meant to say that you have a bone to pick. [SPEAKER_03] It was meant to say I think you see this in a smart way. My sense is that they're moving in the other direction and working to go even deeper in terms [SPEAKER_02] So, Dave, I'm really intrigued by your comment. [SPEAKER_05] I haven't thought, I think it's really interesting about the developer ecosystems. [SPEAKER_05] And obviously you're just in the center of that. [SPEAKER_02] So no one has a better point of view. [SPEAKER_02] My sense is that these companies. [SPEAKER_02] Even if I weren't, this would still be my point of view. No, I know I'm not, I'm not, that wasn't meant to say that you have a bone to pick. It was meant to say, I think you see this in a smart way. My sense is that they're moving in the other direction and working to go even deeper in terms of acquisitions, owned and operated building, to control way more of the software application side. [SPEAKER_01] I think it's a foolish strategy. [SPEAKER_03] But I think they're going in a big, I mean, they're not, nothing that we could obviously confirm, but hearing about a lot of things. So that's interesting. [SPEAKER_03] Why are they doing that? [SPEAKER_03] They think that's where they'll capture the most economic value or it seems to me defensive. I think to Sam's point, I think they have no idea what to do. [SPEAKER_03] And these things do need to make meaningfully more profit in order to fly on the public markets and continue to attract capital, et cetera. [SPEAKER_03] However, you can do that two ways. [SPEAKER_03] Right? We've seen this with companies. There have been many internet platforms over the years where you've seen both regimes play out. Right. Where you have a developer friendly regime and a non-developer friendly regime. And I think in the long term, if you can make your developer ecosystem make more money than you do, you are in a much better position than taking all of the profit for yourself over the long term. And it's an actual choice. Who do you think has legitimate developer platforms in 2026? Apple. [SPEAKER_01] Apple. [SPEAKER_01] Who else? [SPEAKER_01] Google. Google. Google. Just let's be clear. [SPEAKER_02] What is Google's developer platform? Android. [SPEAKER_03] Android. Android. And search. [SPEAKER_02] But they're chipping away. They're taking that away. But people make a lot of money on the other side of search. They used to. They used to. We should talk about Xbox, by the way. Let's return to that. I mean, Meta does this, but it's an ads platform. I just think it's interesting. [SPEAKER_03] I don't think you can argue that Meta is a good platform. Oh, I think it is for advertisers. [SPEAKER_02] They take most of the rents. They don't distribute them. Small business advertisers? Yeah. It's an interesting question, though. [SPEAKER_01] I think we have pretty good results. [SPEAKER_01] I mean, Google's our best performing ad platform, but Meta's pretty good. [SPEAKER_02] So that's our experience. Yeah, but ad platforms aren't developer platforms. I think we'd have to look at an economic analysis of both. [SPEAKER_02] I mean, the main point is, when it comes to technical platforms, I mean, you can certainly talk about Apple, but they also take most of the rents off of the app store, right? [SPEAKER_03] At least used to until they've been fought out of it. [SPEAKER_03] That's not true. [SPEAKER_01] They're going down. [SPEAKER_02] They're going down. [SPEAKER_02] It's not technically most. [SPEAKER_02] It's less than the majority. [SPEAKER_02] 30%. It's a third. It's massive. But no one's going to. [SPEAKER_03] Profits versus revenue. [SPEAKER_03] They take a big chunk of those profits. [SPEAKER_03] People build enormous businesses. [SPEAKER_03] It's a super healthy developer ecosystem. On iOS? Yeah. [SPEAKER_01] There are amazing businesses. [SPEAKER_01] Really? [SPEAKER_01] People have apps. [SPEAKER_01] What's the biggest truly business built on top of the app store? [SPEAKER_02] Really? [SPEAKER_02] Life360. Great gaming businesses galore. There are amazing businesses in the Apple developer ecosystem. [SPEAKER_01] Spotify. Predates the app store. [SPEAKER_02] Look, I just think you can make a choice, right? Like you can make a choice. I wish that the AI companies would make the choice to empower developers because I think that would be better for the world and better for humanity, just keeping these things safe. I think that. [SPEAKER_01] People would be a lot more excited to participate, right? I don't actually think they have to onboard all of these applications. I think they can actually build enormously large businesses by deeply empowering their developer ecosystems, but it's a choice. It's hard either way, right? You either have to onboard, acquire a bunch of these businesses, compete with everybody. [SPEAKER_01] There's a good question about business strategy. I don't think that empowering some developers fundamentally changes the political narrative. No, but I think these are different things. Yeah, they might, a few people like them. Well, also as we've talked about, right? [SPEAKER_02] If you don't empower developers, developers are going to go to all these other alternatives. [SPEAKER_02] As well. Which is again, Jess earlier, you said I have a bone to pick. [SPEAKER_02] I don't care anymore. [SPEAKER_03] No, I said you don't have a bone to pick. [SPEAKER_03] No, I know. [SPEAKER_03] But I legitimately don't care anymore because the availability of amazing open source models is so good. And OpenClaw is growing right now at 5 million Claws a week. We're going to have a billion Claws by the end of the year. If you don't empower developers, developers are going to go to all these other alternatives, right? As well. [SPEAKER_01] Which is again, like Jess earlier, you said, I have a bone to pick. [SPEAKER_02] I don't care anymore. [SPEAKER_03] No, I said you don't have a bone to pick. No, I know. But I legitimately don't care anymore because the availability of amazing open source models is so good. [SPEAKER_01] And OpenClaw is growing right now at 5 million Claws a week. [SPEAKER_01] We're going to have a billion Claws by the end of the year. [SPEAKER_03] And the amount of open source activity is just enormous. And so it actually doesn't matter. [SPEAKER_01] But I do think that they would be better off if they... But this is the point. This is why these are actually distressed companies, Dave. This is my point about OpenAI's political play. We'll see what Anthropic does. These are threatened. I agree, Sam. [SPEAKER_02] I don't think you're hitting Anthropic hard enough because I think it's equally as distressed if this is actually true. [SPEAKER_02] They might be, but they might be. But for now, at least, it feels like OpenAI is the weaker and the more distressed of the two. [SPEAKER_01] And that could just be narrative. [SPEAKER_01] I think this is just a loop. [SPEAKER_01] I said in the past pod, this is changing every few months. We're going to see them shift. [SPEAKER_02] But if that's true, Brit, that means they're all fucked. [SPEAKER_02] It means there's no compounding advantage. [SPEAKER_05] I agree. [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. [SPEAKER_05] That's the question of the year is, is there a compounding advantage against... It's ironic because Mark was all about open source early, right? And I think he is strategically right. [SPEAKER_02] It just turns out maybe to not be Meta's open source. He should have kept going. [SPEAKER_02] But he was right thematically and strategically. [SPEAKER_02] But he should have kept going. They could go back to open source now. They should go back. [SPEAKER_02] They should absolutely go back. In my view, Meta should go back to open source, rent their cloud to developers. They should have been in the cloud business all along. [SPEAKER_03] We actually considered being in the cloud business back when we launched Facebook platform in 07. And they waited way too long. They've got all this inference, just rent it to developers, build an enormous cloud business and ship amazing open source models and power developers. [SPEAKER_01] It would be great for Meta to do that. [SPEAKER_01] It was the right strategy. [SPEAKER_01] I don't know why they switched. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. [SPEAKER_01] We'll see. [SPEAKER_01] I think they're throwing a lot of things against the wall and I think it's unclear. It's unclear what they're going to do. Time will tell. Switching gears a little bit, who has an Xbox? [SPEAKER_03] I feel like we do not have one. [SPEAKER_03] I feel like we have every gaming device. [SPEAKER_03] No, no. [SPEAKER_03] We've never had one. [SPEAKER_03] We only have Nintendo. [SPEAKER_05] Sam, do we not have an Xbox? [SPEAKER_05] We have, no, we have PlayStation. [SPEAKER_05] No, we don't. [SPEAKER_01] We got rid of the PlayStation. [SPEAKER_01] Oh. [SPEAKER_01] We briefly had an Xbox because we bought a house from an Apple executive who had the most beautiful rack of every single gaming device in history that we bought. [SPEAKER_03] That's funny. [SPEAKER_03] So we did briefly have one, but no, we've never, I've never bought an Xbox. [SPEAKER_01] Wait, you included all of his devices in the house acquisition? It was so deeply wired into the infrastructure of this house that we had the most beautiful Apple exec route. So you're things that only happen in Silicon Valley. [SPEAKER_02] And it had an Xbox built in. [SPEAKER_02] But no, we have, I've never bought one. [SPEAKER_02] Lots of people do. [SPEAKER_05] It's a thing people do. [SPEAKER_02] Well, Xbox has gone through a major restructuring, guys. [SPEAKER_05] Apparently. A lot of people laid off, right? Didn't they restructure it? Twice. [SPEAKER_02] Sarah Bond was running it for a while. [SPEAKER_03] She was amazing and she left. [SPEAKER_03] Now Asha is running it, who was doing AI. [SPEAKER_03] And she's totally overhauled the strategy, jettisoned a lot of studios. [SPEAKER_01] Why? [SPEAKER_01] What's happening? [SPEAKER_01] Are people not gaming? [SPEAKER_01] Are they using the Xboxes to multiply numbers and putting them in a cloud? No, I think basically they just faced obviously more and more competition in gaming and entertainment. [SPEAKER_05] And also in non-console based gaming because there's the internet and so forth. [SPEAKER_05] It's they're losing OnlyFans. [SPEAKER_05] That's what's really happening. [SPEAKER_02] Well, and did you know I was reading an article about video gaming and it turns out the most prolific video gamer is a 37-year-old man. [SPEAKER_03] It used to be much younger, children and teens. And now it's 37, insinuating that video gaming has actually not stayed as popular as it once was with our generation. And the only boom in it was in 2020 because everyone was stuck at home. [SPEAKER_02] But even still, teenagers these days have found other things. [SPEAKER_02] What do they do? They're not having sex. [SPEAKER_05] They don't play video games. [SPEAKER_05] I think they're just on social media. [SPEAKER_05] They're watching YouTube and TikTok. [SPEAKER_05] It's really not good. I will say I really appreciate you, Dave. You, I got to give you credit. [SPEAKER_02] You mentioned offhand this Nex device, which is awesome. And we immediately bought it and it's great. So fun. [SPEAKER_02] It's great. [SPEAKER_02] Literally, we have it with us. We travel with it. It's so little. Why wouldn't we bring it with us? [SPEAKER_03] We also travel with ours. [SPEAKER_02] It's the easiest thing to travel with. I literally don't do this, but I also. Explain what it is, Sam. You, I got to give you credit. You mentioned offhand this Nex device, which is awesome. [SPEAKER_05] And we immediately bought it and it's great. [SPEAKER_05] So fun. It's great. Literally, we have it with us. We travel with it. [SPEAKER_02] It's so little. [SPEAKER_02] I'm like, why wouldn't we bring it with us? [SPEAKER_03] We also have a travel with ours. It's the easiest thing to travel with. I literally, I don't do this, but I also. [SPEAKER_02] Explain what it is, Sam. [SPEAKER_05] There is some context required when you're taping a podcast. [SPEAKER_05] Is there? Really? I feel like we're taping for people who are in the know. We don't care about other people. Not if you're introducing a new device you just learned of. Fair enough. Look, it's ideally. Dave should explain it. In all honesty, I'll give full credit. This was a complete Dave Morin offhand than I do my online shopping while we talk. [SPEAKER_03] And this one was great. [SPEAKER_03] You should have got an affiliate link, Dave. [SPEAKER_02] Next is like the second coming of Xbox Kinect. [SPEAKER_02] Of Kinect. [SPEAKER_02] Of Xbox. [SPEAKER_02] Of Kinect. [SPEAKER_05] Xbox deserves some credit here because they were the ones that started with the Kinect thing, which was a response to multi-touch, right? Where it's more inputs besides the controller, right? That's what Kinect was. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, you could dance in front of it. [SPEAKER_01] And it used, I think, LiDAR or some kind of depth sensing in order to get input for the video game. And so Next just took a look at that and said, we can make this even more family friendly. Well, and cheap as shit 20 years later. [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, it's low cost. And the games are really fun because they're multiplayer. I think that's the key thing. And they get you moving. And so it's pretty cool. You can play basketball and tennis and a lot of things that we had on the Wii and Xbox with Kinect and all that. But you just need this one little cheap box and the whole family can play. And I think it's cool because it's a video game that gets kids moving, which I think is really one of the main things that's the best about it. And it's the size of a Rubik's Cube. You can throw it in your bag. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, it's great. [SPEAKER_01] I will say my big thing is for years I was looking for a kid's version of Beat Saber. [SPEAKER_01] Because I think Beat Saber is an amazing game, but I don't want them in VR. [SPEAKER_01] And I also think the number one problem with Beat Saber is you go to play it and you disappear into the metaverse to play it. [SPEAKER_05] But it's a great game. [SPEAKER_05] And so they basically have non-VR multiplayer Beat Saber, which is just that's all I need. It's really wild. Kids become like they master it so fast. [SPEAKER_02] You're like, what's going on? [SPEAKER_02] Okay, that's a good rack. [SPEAKER_02] You know, there's some amazing people working on Nex as well. [SPEAKER_02] Some great product designers. [SPEAKER_03] But Dave, are they building an ecosystem or just that? [SPEAKER_03] Are they building an ecosystem? [SPEAKER_03] Oh my God, Sam, you're something. [SPEAKER_03] I think they are actually. [SPEAKER_01] They've got a lot of great games. But are they taking too much of the profits? [SPEAKER_01] I'm kidding. [SPEAKER_01] I'm just messing with you. [SPEAKER_03] You know who's involved there was Alex Wu, who was on the original Facebook product design team. [SPEAKER_01] He's one of the founders. [SPEAKER_02] So props to Alex Wu. [SPEAKER_02] And he was, I always loved working with him. [SPEAKER_02] Great copy. [SPEAKER_02] Just to wrap Xbox. So the other question is whether Microsoft will eventually sell Xbox. [SPEAKER_01] What do you guys say? [SPEAKER_01] To who? [SPEAKER_01] To OpenAI, of course. [SPEAKER_01] There's two people to sell it to. [SPEAKER_03] To EA. [SPEAKER_03] I don't know. [SPEAKER_03] I know. [SPEAKER_03] That's one of the two. [SPEAKER_02] I mean, to other people. Oh yeah. I mean, sell it to one of the gaming companies. [SPEAKER_05] Microsoft is the only of the big tech stocks that is down. [SPEAKER_05] Investors are not happy with the strategy over there. [SPEAKER_05] There's a lot of big questions. [SPEAKER_05] The narrative shift on Microsoft in the last year is wild to me. [SPEAKER_01] It's going from they could do no wrong to they're the worst. [SPEAKER_01] I just love we really do trade narratives and not reality. [SPEAKER_03] It's wild to me to come to this is my takeaway. [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. [SPEAKER_03] Because it's an enormously huge business. [SPEAKER_02] At some point, SpaceX has come back down to earth. [SPEAKER_02] Kind of. [SPEAKER_02] It's. [SPEAKER_02] Kind of. [SPEAKER_01] Kind of. [SPEAKER_01] Look, I just think it's fascinating. [SPEAKER_03] I'm very cynical, but this is my 2026 takeaway: just extreme nihilism. [SPEAKER_03] All we're doing is trading narratives. And the interesting thing is it's only getting more intense as the children get obsessed with this scared permanent underclass thing where they're just so transactional. Right. And everyone's just like the level of cynicism is wildly high right now from my view, which is an interesting match with all this across everything or what? I think in especially youth culture, but a lot of what's going on. It's this crazy moment where Silicon Valley is so optimistic. But then there's extreme cynicism about the markets and value and politics and everything. It's a really weird disconnect. I mean, Sam, the stuff you were working on with your Harvard project was it two years ago now? And more. Was kind of a predecessor to this in the broader extreme nihilism. across everything or what? I think especially in youth culture, but a lot of what's going on. It's this crazy moment where Silicon Valley is so optimistic. [SPEAKER_02] But then there's extreme cynicism, right, about the markets and value and politics and everything. [SPEAKER_02] It's a really weird disconnect. [SPEAKER_05] Sam, the stuff you were working on with your Harvard project was it two years ago now? [SPEAKER_02] And more. [SPEAKER_02] Was kind of a predecessor to this in the broader extreme nihilism. [SPEAKER_02] Well, just the message that was coming out of that and what the work you've done to try to reform the education environment there like that seems to have broadly distributed across society now. Yes. [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I think look, I was talking to one of our founders who works on our merit first testing platform and it is interesting how that, let's just drive hard on meritocracy and the best people should have it open competition, etc. [SPEAKER_01] Went from being fringy to completely mainstream. I think we just have this separation. [SPEAKER_01] We have Mondami nihilism, socialism. And then we have a bunch of people that are in the minority numerically, but maybe not in terms of wealth and power who are just like, no, we want freedom and capitalism and meritocracy. That's the trifecta. So I just think the world's very split. And that's what's making it super interesting. History says we're all about to get guillotined, but we'll find out. Why? Because the minority of people who have the money and people are mad and that's what happens. I don't think it will actually get guillotined instead because of Foucault, we've moved on. But aren't you trying to figure out if that's actually true with Vox Americanis? Yes, this is my big thing. Vox Americanis has been very fascinating. It's going well, by the way, I now have the Vox Americanis app. It's great. [SPEAKER_02] Did you let me unsubscribe from post notifications yet? [SPEAKER_01] Because I'm getting every time anyone comments on any post. And I hate to say, but you're violating some laws here. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. [SPEAKER_02] It's good growth work. That's good growth work. You need an unsubscribe. [SPEAKER_03] You need one. That's respectable growth work, Jess. No, no, no, no. To be clear, you don't need to unsubscribe. [SPEAKER_02] You need to cancel account, which we have. So if you want out, you're welcome to be out. [SPEAKER_03] Now, I will say Jessica did give you my only negative user feedback about notifications I've gotten so far. And I did immediately actually create a notification center. So you can unsubscribe from those post notifications. Thank you. Thank you, Claude. But it's actually quite a bit of Claude work. Claude was like, ah, this is going to be a lot of work. Was Fable on that? [SPEAKER_02] No, here's the funny thing. This is my personal take on this AI stuff and Fable. [SPEAKER_03] I'm a sophisticated user of this stuff. There are more, but pretty sophisticated. [SPEAKER_02] I don't even care. [SPEAKER_05] I actually literally don't know what Claude I'm using. I'm sure it's fine. Well, I think they default make it Fable so that you spend the most money. I think this is actually an important take right now. And Peter and I at OpenClaw talk about this a lot, which is that these things like at five, whatever, 4.5, 4.6, 4.7. And these things are all so good that the only thing holding you back now is attention and time and creativity. It's already so powerful that it doesn't really matter. [SPEAKER_02] We're so past. [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, so for me, it's like, people are like, what are you using? I honestly don't care, which means these companies are all fucked. Can I just say I'm a little bit bored? Hey, Sam, are these companies fucked? [SPEAKER_01] So fucked. But they're great. I love using them. [SPEAKER_02] And for me, the reality is I couldn't agree more, Dave. [SPEAKER_05] It's wild to me how quickly and well you can build stuff. It's only creativity now. Well, no, it's also attention. It's also attention. I think people are going to tap out a little bit. Here's what's happening. I was thinking about. Britt had a hot take on this. Well, I'm just a little bit bored of AI right now. [SPEAKER_02] And I wonder if people will agree with me. Guys, short. Short the sector. [SPEAKER_05] Okay, I've got all my agents in place. [SPEAKER_01] I have cron jobs that run daily. I do a bunch of things with AI on a regular basis. But my creative instinct to just want to vibe away all day long, like I had three months ago, is not really there as much anymore. And it's just not as novel. When I do. It's just. Why do you think that is? I just feel like it was so interesting and cool. And I had all these ideas that I had always wanted to do. And I built them all. And now one will come up every now and it's fine. [SPEAKER_05] And we're planning a friend trip in August. [SPEAKER_01] And I'm, okay, I'll just make the website and automate a bunch of stuff to plan it all and find. You make websites for your friend trips? Yes. Yes, because we need to get RSVPs and there's activities. I've never been on a friend trip with you where you've made a website. Now I'm feeling like. It's a new thing, Jess. It just started a few weeks ago. [SPEAKER_05] Trust me. [SPEAKER_05] And now one will come up every now and it's fine. [SPEAKER_05] And we're planning a friend trip in August. And I'm, okay, I'll just make the website and automate a bunch of stuff to plan it all and find. [SPEAKER_05] You make websites for your friend trips? [SPEAKER_05] Yes. [SPEAKER_05] Yes, because we need to get RSVPs and there's activities. [SPEAKER_05] I've never been on a friend trip with you where you've made a website. Now, I'm feeling. It's a new thing, Jess. It just started a few weeks ago. Trust me. [SPEAKER_03] One will end up in your inbox. [SPEAKER_03] Trust me. [SPEAKER_03] Part of it is that I think I've automated a bunch of things and I don't need to automate that much more. [SPEAKER_01] Part of it's everything feels slightly, slightly better. [SPEAKER_01] There's a slightly better model. [SPEAKER_01] There's a new agent messenger. [SPEAKER_01] There's a new what. There's so many things that are incremental. [SPEAKER_05] And I'm, I don't care. [SPEAKER_05] It's fine. [SPEAKER_05] Because it's already good. [SPEAKER_05] And then part of it's, I don't know. [SPEAKER_05] The novelty of all that creative stuff is just worn off a little bit. [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. [SPEAKER_05] Short creativity. [SPEAKER_05] We're done with creativity. [SPEAKER_05] I'm not short creativity. Britt Morin is short creativity. No, she's not. [SPEAKER_01] She's saying the opposite. She's saying she's not engaged. She's saying that this is just an uncreative. [SPEAKER_03] It's an uncreative medium. I'm just saying it's evolutionary, not revolutionary at this point. It's linear, not exponential. So what's the next thing? [SPEAKER_03] So this actually goes to something that I've been thinking about a lot. I've been hearing a lot of fellow GPs that are working on new funds talking to me about this idea of that they're going to make their new fund about the post-AGI world. [SPEAKER_05] Oh, God. [SPEAKER_05] Yes. [SPEAKER_01] And that that's their whole thesis. [SPEAKER_01] And if Britt's right that we're in an evolutionary moment and there's no revolutionary thing coming, then that means that AGI is not here. [SPEAKER_01] And it's not coming for a while. [SPEAKER_01] And so if you're building your strategy around this, it might not be the best idea. [SPEAKER_03] Well, I think a lot of people are talking about physical AI now. [SPEAKER_03] We've gotten to the best we can do in digital AI. [SPEAKER_01] Sure. [SPEAKER_01] We're going to make it better a little bit. [SPEAKER_01] Prices are going to drop, blah, blah, blah. [SPEAKER_01] But now how do we automate the world around us and how do we get data across every offline industry and then figure out how to build robots and automate systems and fine. [SPEAKER_05] That might be interesting. [SPEAKER_05] Maybe that's the revolution. [SPEAKER_05] I don't know. [SPEAKER_05] I think it's just we should just buy sports teams and real estate. [SPEAKER_05] That's what Josh Kushner is doing. [SPEAKER_05] He's buying more sports teams. [SPEAKER_05] I know. [SPEAKER_05] I'm very well aware of that. [SPEAKER_02] I mean, that's the irony, right? [SPEAKER_02] That's exactly what Josh is doing. [SPEAKER_03] Isn't it only sports teams because it's the only thing that causes people to be live. [SPEAKER_03] How fun is the World Cup been, by the way? I'm so into the World Cup, you guys. [SPEAKER_02] I'm shockingly into it. [SPEAKER_02] We're going. [SPEAKER_02] We're very excited tomorrow. [SPEAKER_01] I'm jealous. [SPEAKER_01] Concerts, too. [SPEAKER_05] Benson Boone's on tour again, everybody. [SPEAKER_01] I would just like everyone to know that. [SPEAKER_05] I have 10 concerts booked for the rest of the year. [SPEAKER_05] Don't worry. 10? [SPEAKER_03] Oh. [SPEAKER_03] What are you looking forward to? [SPEAKER_03] Sam is so not interested in concerts. Britt, I need to go with you. Well, we're country and pop and rock people. [SPEAKER_03] So Garth Brooks just announced a tour today that's happening. [SPEAKER_03] We've got Post Malone, Chris Stapleton, Teddy Swims, The Chicks, Dan and Shay. [SPEAKER_03] There's some bands you probably don't know. [SPEAKER_03] But a lot of concerts. [SPEAKER_03] I'm excited to see Teddy Swims again. We saw Teddy Swims at Stagecoach and he was amazing. It's truly great in person. Yeah. [SPEAKER_05] Live music, sporting events, real estate. [SPEAKER_05] I'd love to see how the World Cup fan viewership and data from this World Cup is different than the last one for Americans specifically. [SPEAKER_01] Minus the fact that we hosted. [SPEAKER_01] That's the key. [SPEAKER_05] That is the key. That's you just explain the entire thing. Explain what? That we hosted? [SPEAKER_05] We hosted. [SPEAKER_02] So obviously we're going to more events. [SPEAKER_02] But does that also make us more interested? [SPEAKER_02] I think so because it's it's in all the stadiums that people are used to watching NFL games. [SPEAKER_02] It carries that kind of vibe. [SPEAKER_05] Right. [SPEAKER_05] Renamed though. [SPEAKER_05] Renamed. Yeah. It carries the vibe of college football, NFL. All these stadiums are stadiums that are beloved by Americans. [SPEAKER_01] Right. [SPEAKER_03] And so I think that matters. [SPEAKER_03] Also, isn't soccer just getting more popular too? [SPEAKER_03] Slowly. [SPEAKER_01] Very, very, very slowly. [SPEAKER_01] No, I don't know. [SPEAKER_01] I just think to your point, sporting events, sporting leagues, all of these offline communal activities are going to keep growing and growing. [SPEAKER_05] So I'm long, long offline. [SPEAKER_05] Well, we should make a nod to the Wimbledon also happening. [SPEAKER_04] Some good storylines there. [SPEAKER_05] The wildcard is in the semifinals, Arthur Ferry, just so you know, which is kind of wild. [SPEAKER_05] It doesn't usually happen. [SPEAKER_05] And any other parting thoughts before we let the people go back to their moment of non-AI conversation or probably more AI. [SPEAKER_01] No, I don't know. I just think to your point, sporting events, sporting leagues, all of these offline communal activities are going to keep growing and growing. So I'm long, long offline. Well, we should make a nod to the Wimbledon also happening. [SPEAKER_04] Some good storylines there. A wild card is in the semifinals, Arthur Ferry, just so you know, which is wild. It doesn't usually happen. And yeah, any other parting thoughts before we let the people go back to their moment of non-AI conversation or probably more AI? [SPEAKER_03] I just want to lick the cookie on one PCC pop culture corner. Lick it, Britt. I called that Taylor Swift wedding strategy from day one. That's all I'm going to say. She didn't have all her friends perform. She had two of her friends perform and then they did. No, you don't know what happened. [SPEAKER_05] That's true. I don't know. Stay tuned. [SPEAKER_05] People performed and I was right. Stay tuned. And I was right without having insider info. And then I got insider info to confirm that I was right. But then there was the karaoke part. [SPEAKER_01] Yes. But a lot of that was planned. [SPEAKER_05] No, of course it was planned. Of course it is. So it wasn't just random. Let's do karaoke. Look, I have a hot take. I have a hot take that's unrelated to inside info. Am I going to watch this wedding on a streaming platform? No documentary. [SPEAKER_03] When am I getting photos of the dress? [SPEAKER_03] I think within the next 72 hours. [SPEAKER_01] Within a week of the wedding. I do think that there is something going on with Madison Square Garden Group. [SPEAKER_03] That's my real theory. That's my hot take is that there's a. Dave thinks Taylor is going to announce a Sphere residency. Yeah, I think there's going to be a huge Sphere residency. I read a headline saying that the Sphere and MSG are competing. [SPEAKER_01] They're the same thing. The Sphere is owned by MSG. The two venues are. But then it could be a billion dollar residency. [SPEAKER_01] Don't we know people there? [SPEAKER_03] I mean, it's all fake news. [SPEAKER_01] Can't we call our person that we know? Can we have a guest on the pod next week? We can add that to our list. Fascinating times. We should thank the dear listeners for sticking with us. You got the full quad here. It's we can't thank sponsors. So we have to thank the listeners. Guys, we can thank our sponsors. We have decided not to monetize this podcast for some insane reason. We should rethink that, by the way. Capitalists that we are. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, let's actually turn over a new leaf after 4th of July. We're going to go full capitalist this fall. [SPEAKER_03] I think we should call the labs and see if they'll sponsor us. You know, I don't think they will. We're going to have to go with beverages, creatine, peptides. [SPEAKER_01] Oh, yeah. MSG. Oh, yeah. Peptides. Peptides. I'm now I started the peptides. Wait, I have a lot of peptides questions. [SPEAKER_02] Can we do a special episode on peptides? We'll take money from Matt Mazzeo's peptide company. Can we have Matt on as a guest next week and talk about peptides? Oh, he would love that. He'll just show us his arm. I am a total noob. I need to know. [SPEAKER_01] All right, Mazzeo, we're coming for you. [SPEAKER_05] I'll shoot some peptides live on air. [SPEAKER_02] I've lost control. I'm trying to end the episode, dear listener. [SPEAKER_05] Okay, wrap it up. We will wrap it up. [SPEAKER_02] We will take next week planning to the thread. Next episode is all about peptides. And if Sam looks extra glowy, we'll know why. Thank you. Be safe. This is not an endorsement of peptides. We are not doctors. [SPEAKER_02] Or safety. [SPEAKER_03] And have a great week. We'll see you back here next week for another episode of More or Less. Bye. See you later. If you enjoyed this show, please leave us a virtual high five by rating it and reviewing it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Find more information about each episode in the show notes and follow us on social media by searching for at more or less, at Dave Morin, at Lesson, at Jay Lesson, and as for me, I'm at Britt. See you guys next time. If fascinating times, we should thank the dear listeners for sticking with us. You got the full quad here. It's like we can't thank sponsors. So we have to thank the listeners. Guys, we can thank our sponsors. We have decided not to monetize this podcast for some insane reason. We should rethink that, by the way. Capitalists that we are. Yeah, let's actually turn over a new leaf after 4th of July. We're going to go full capitalist this fall. I think we should call the labs and see if they'll sponsor us. You know, I don't think they will. I don't think they will. We're going to have to go with beverages, creatine, peptides. Oh, yeah. MSG. Oh, yeah. Peptides. Peptides. I'm now... I started the peptides. Wait, I have a lot of peptides questions. Can we do a special episode on peptides? We'll take money from Matt Mazzeo's peptide company. Can we have Matt on as a guest next week and talk about peptides? Oh, he would love that. He'll just show us his arm. I am a total noob. I need to know. All right, Mazzeo, we're coming for you. I'll shoot some peptides live on air. I've lost control. I'm trying to end the episode, dear listener. Okay, wrap it up. We will wrap it up. We will take next week planning to the thread. Next episode is all about peptides. And if Sam looks extra glowy, we'll know why. Thank you. Be safe. This is not an endorsement of peptides. We are not doctors. Or safety. And have a great week. We'll see you back here next week for another episode of More or Less. Bye. See you later. If you enjoyed this show, please leave us a virtual high five by rating it and reviewing it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Find more information about each episode in the show notes and follow us on social media by searching for at more or less, at Dave Morin, at Lesson, at Jay Lesson, and as for me, I'm at Britt. See you guys next time.