Nvidia’s GTC Was “Taylor Swift for Straight Men” (Apple, OpenAI, and OpenClaw News)

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I think we should all be very cautious about Gen Alpha right now, the 10 to 15 year olds. Their use of AI is growing faster than anyone's. We got intel from ClawCon Austin, the Open Claw Meetup, that the best presenters of all the developers were these 12 to 14 year olds from the Alpha school in Austin, which is the AI first school.

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They blew away the adults.

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It was unbelievably night and day what these kids presented versus the normie developers.

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More or less. Is it no or is it yes? We'll debate the text that's best when we get more or less. Dave and Britt plus Sam and Jess put it all right to the test. More or less.

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Why hello, friends. Welcome to More or Less.

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Hey, Jess.

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How's everyone doing in this heat wave? So hot.

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So hot right now. Guys, we've been getting too many positive comments about this pod. We have to do a bad episode of this meme.

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I think it's because we now have advertising.

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People loved the ads. People love ads. It's crazy.

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The ad.

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It was a singular ad, you guys. We've been offered five times as much for the next one.

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Let's go 10x. The same company that I didn't know what they did.

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That's the point of an ad is to tell you about a company you don't know what it is. If you know what it does, then what's the point?

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That's true. Well, but it needs to be well targeted.

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This episode is brought to you by Open Claw.

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Yes, likely.

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Does Open Claw have any money to pay us, Dave? What's going on? I don't actually understand what the Open Claw Foundation does.

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It's getting close.

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Right with the hard-hitting news. I love it, Sam. Good instincts here. Yeah. Way to moderate, Sam.

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The Open Claw Foundation. Do you want me to answer? Is it a non-profit? Is it a Cayman entity? Yes, it's a non-profit. It is a Delaware non-profit.

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A Delaware non-profit. Fancy.

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Is it a Delaware non-profit?

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Why Delaware?

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We are chartered. We are chartered as of last week. It's actually news I haven't published, so I should probably put it out there.

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Will there be at least one fishing representative on the board? Fishing? Because it's claws.

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Oh, no. Yes, a Maine lobsterman.

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Fisherman Kyle could do it.

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Oh.

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He could represent the fish. That's an interesting idea. I speak for the fish about these claws.

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Before we devolve, before having begun, this will be a claw episode because we're going to talk about NVIDIA's GTC, where many of us were in attendance, which is the AI Super Bowl, and the claws were a big theme. So we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about some awesome news out of important news out of the information about Apple and Vibe coding apps, which I think is underappreciated and interesting. [SPEAKER_02] Yes, it is. Those topics will take up a lot of time. I am sure we will get to more.

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[SPEAKER_05] But first, in a little job ad, I suppose, Sam, you posted you're looking for a master of bots.

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Can you talk about this? A master of bots, mom? [SPEAKER_01] I thought you were a master of bots. [SPEAKER_01] I am, but I'm too busy. [SPEAKER_01] So I think that this... [SPEAKER_01] What else are you doing with your life?

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You'd be surprised. Playing tennis, lifting weights. [SPEAKER_04] Sam joined the tennis league. [SPEAKER_04] Oh my God. Oh God. Here's the upshot.

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[SPEAKER_01] You remember how back in the day, you used to have a sysadmin at your company? [SPEAKER_01] Remember those days?

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Yes. I think there's a new role, which is the rise, the re-rise of the sysadmin, which is going to be called the master of bots. [SPEAKER_05] But if it's all dark factories, what is there for the master to do? The master's job is just literally to manage the bots, deploy new bots, sit down with people who don't know what the fuck they're doing and help them build the bots. [SPEAKER_01] Maybe build some software. It's just IT. It's just new IT. [SPEAKER_04] I talked about this 10 episodes ago and we called that the...

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[SPEAKER_04] Yeah, I think you did.

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[SPEAKER_04] Thank you. [SPEAKER_04] The chief agent officer or something like that. [SPEAKER_02] I like master of claws. Master claw master. [SPEAKER_04] Or chief of agents.

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We called it chief of agents. [SPEAKER_02] Claw master is good. A co-ow. Claw.

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[SPEAKER_04] Claw.

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You can also call it AIHR.

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[SPEAKER_01] I want an HR manager. [SPEAKER_01] I want...

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[SPEAKER_01] It's not HR.

[SPEAKER_01] It's A-R-A-I-R. Okay. Sam's not the branding person on this pod, so let's not do that. [SPEAKER_01] It's just for every 100 software engineering jobs, there's going to be one master of bots job created, right? [SPEAKER_01] It'll be 100x downshift. Okay. [SPEAKER_05] That reminds me, we have to talk about layoffs too. [SPEAKER_05] Third topic. [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. But it's I want a person who has a CS degree because it just proves how computers work to some degree and is really into the bots and can think about security and just packages things for people to spit because it's I can do it.

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[SPEAKER_01] I just have other shit to do. [SPEAKER_05] Do you guys have bot anxiety?

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[SPEAKER_05] So I... No, bots are great. [SPEAKER_05] No, no. Okay.

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That reminds me, we have to talk about layoffs too. Third topic. Yeah.

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But I want a person who has a CS degree because it just proves how computers work to some degree and is really into the bots and can think about security and just basically packages things for people to spit because I can do it. I just have other shit to do. [SPEAKER_05] Do you guys have bot anxiety? [SPEAKER_05] So I... No, bots are great.

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[SPEAKER_05] No, no. When I can't access my bot, I get anxious. So I had a long drive to San Jose in traffic and I wanted to do work on my cloud code. I wanted to update this report it's generating for me. And I had someone call me and I was, I wonder how their last story, what the story around that was. And I could not because I can't use it on mobile.

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[SPEAKER_02] I thought you could now. I can? I can use my cloud code thingy on mobile?

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Yeah, there's multiple ways to do it.

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There's multiple ways to do it. [SPEAKER_01] You can either just boot a remote session, which is easy, or you can SSH in through Claude's interface. Well, maybe we can figure that out. [SPEAKER_02] Jess, we can get your claw doing this for you. It's no problem. I do these commands. But Jess is rich, so she uses Claude. [SPEAKER_02] Rich people use Claude. [SPEAKER_01] She uses luxury AI. Who do people use the claw? I actually had a meeting today about how to de-luxury my AI and how to expand it to my team at a more cost-effective price. So I'm currently narrowly in the luxury AI window, and then I'm going to move into the widely deployed cheap AI window.

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[SPEAKER_01] Well, it's funny. That's actually the real upgrade. It's not how many tokens you get. It's the token. When you're a low level employee, you get claws. And at a certain point, you're granted luxury Claude. You've been promoted to have Claude now.

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No, but then you do too much and then you have to go back. But anyway, I did not like this about me. I did not like that anxiety I had. It seems I just need to take a deep breath and remember. [SPEAKER_04] Well, it's not only anxiety, Jess, but there's actual data coming out now that people have been measuring people's memory, and their problem solving, their constructive thinking. And the more people are using all these AI tools, of course, the more those things are going. I feel we're going to need some sort of brain gem that keeps us sharp because we're outsourcing all these hard thinking things to all our agents.

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It should make you play Sudoku while you wait for your shit to get done.

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I was going to say Sudoku or Crossword Puzzles.

But I love Jess. Jess caught me. I built an entire app flying home last week. It was great. [SPEAKER_05] I was just looking at the back of his screen. I'm thinking that thing is just running at 10,000 feet or wherever we were. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And I was thinking, that's pretty impressive. That was wild, to be honest.

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I've actually thought about that vibe coding on planes might actually be a thing. Just buy a plane ticket in coach and vibe code. Just go places to vibe code. [SPEAKER_01] No, no, Dave, this is an old idea that I will credit. Ricky VanVien and I were co-developing on a walk once. Here's the idea: co-working spaces that are airplane fuselages that don't go anywhere. Right. So you buy a ticket and it's a super dense thing. Think about it. You can fit so many people in a small space. You have a stewardess to serve your lunch. You just sit in the chair. On your calendar, it says you're in the air.

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[SPEAKER_02] But are you forced to stay in the chair for the time period you've rented it and you can't get up?

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[SPEAKER_01] No, you can go to the bathroom. Only to pee. Think about it. If you're on an airplane, it's the only time that you're allowed to set, I'm not available because I'm flying, even though you are available. Right. And then you can just be left alone. It can be 2 p.m. and you can watch a movie. You can vibe code. You have someone bring you food. And it's incredibly space efficient. And you can have super fast Wi-Fi. So the whole innovation is airplanes that don't go anywhere. Right. Is going to be the co-working space of the future. You can even block it on your calendar. You could buy it as, I'm flying to Tokyo. And that's a certain number of hours. Or I'm flying to...

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[SPEAKER_04] Buy it hourly.

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Yeah. Oh, I bought a Tokyo ticket, you know, like part of the productivity is the pressure change. [SPEAKER_02] You can make that happen. You could pressurize the fuselage. No, it's the opposite. You're pressurized to a very high altitude. So you make yourself slightly stupider and remove some air and then you get better work done. And you think everything's a good idea because you're loopy, right?

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[SPEAKER_02] Pretty good. This is not the best idea. Not the best idea. [SPEAKER_02] Or you could just go get on a plane and just fly somewhere to code. Let's go back to the clause, Jess.

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[SPEAKER_02] We're going back. [SPEAKER_05] Thank you, Brett. You could pressurize the fuselage. No, it's the opposite. You're pressurized to a very high altitude. So you make yourself slightly stupider and remove some air and then you get better work done. But you think everything's a good idea because you're loopy, right? Pretty good.

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This is not the best idea. Not the best idea. [SPEAKER_02] Or you could just go get on a plane and just fly somewhere to code. Let's go back to the clause, Jess.

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[SPEAKER_02] We're going back. [SPEAKER_05] Thank you, Brett. [SPEAKER_05] Okay. [SPEAKER_05] So, GTC. [SPEAKER_05] I would say a couple years ago, this became a big thing. [SPEAKER_05] It was always a thing, but it became a big thing. [SPEAKER_01] I thought GDC was Game Developer Conference.

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It is.

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[SPEAKER_04] GTC.

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[SPEAKER_04] GDC. [SPEAKER_04] All the acronyms, you guys. What is the T? Wait, GTC?

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[SPEAKER_01] Right? [SPEAKER_04] GTC versus GDC.

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Here's the thing.

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[SPEAKER_01] It's all GPUs. [SPEAKER_01] It doesn't really matter whether it's GDC or GTC.

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[SPEAKER_01] It's true. [SPEAKER_05] It's true. [SPEAKER_05] Although there are a lot of people trying to sell TPUs at NVIDIA's GDC, let me tell you, which is obviously Google's competitor.

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[SPEAKER_05] But this was the first time I ever went. [SPEAKER_05] I just felt left out. [SPEAKER_05] We were sending three reporters and three business people. [SPEAKER_05] And I just wanted to go. I thought you looked good. I like the information read. You were sporting the brand. [SPEAKER_05] I had such a great time, guys. [SPEAKER_05] I want to hear about Dave's. [SPEAKER_05] I was not at the keynote.

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[SPEAKER_05] I just went and had a couple meetings.

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[SPEAKER_05] And then I walked the floor, which I haven't done in years since CES. [SPEAKER_05] And I just went up to random people. [SPEAKER_05] And I think reporting is what I'm learning. [SPEAKER_05] But I thought it was fascinating. [SPEAKER_05] There were so many people, so many companies. [SPEAKER_02] It's really unbelievable how big it is. [SPEAKER_05] So much excitement. [SPEAKER_05] And I will just say many fans of More or Less, I took seven selfies. [SPEAKER_05] And I don't think it was because of the information's hard-hitting business coverage. [SPEAKER_05] I just don't. [SPEAKER_05] I think it's this, guys.

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So this whole narrative that you'll get positive feedback from More or Less is wrong. [SPEAKER_05] I know. [SPEAKER_05] I have to zip it. [SPEAKER_05] I mean, it was very valid. [SPEAKER_05] They then posted them online. [SPEAKER_05] I was mortified. [SPEAKER_05] But anyway, so I thought it was great. [SPEAKER_05] I was mostly there for a Jensen press conference.

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[SPEAKER_05] And I will give my recollections on that.

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[SPEAKER_05] And then I want to hear what Dave thought the keynote was like and talk about all the claw news. [SPEAKER_05] But I haven't seen Jensen speak and I've shaken his hand before and stuff.

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[SPEAKER_05] But this man loves a press conference.

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[SPEAKER_02] Oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_05] He was relishing it every second. [SPEAKER_05] He was working the room. [SPEAKER_05] He was making fun of people at some point. [SPEAKER_05] But I know Sam talks about narrative capitalism and these CEOs who are winning on narrative and storytelling and the cult of personality. [SPEAKER_05] And obviously NVIDIA is also winning because of the GPU.

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That is why they're winning. But I was a little surprised at how he was also cut from the same cloth.

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[SPEAKER_05] He is really embracing this role as AI's storyteller in chief and just relishes it.

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He actually said during the press conference, I want to keep talking to you guys.

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[SPEAKER_05] I don't want to go to my next meeting.

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He kept going. So that was it. But I don't know. You guys have never gone to these as reporters. This was also true at Apple events and still is.

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[SPEAKER_05] The audience is packed with a wide variety of people. [SPEAKER_05] But the fawning over these CEOs is also a little much.

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[SPEAKER_05] And there are people who presented him with awards. [SPEAKER_05] There's a good 20 minutes of selfie taking afterwards. [SPEAKER_05] And obviously he is a rock star in many dimensions, but he was obsessed with the fact that he had been crowned the inference king, which of course is a big deal because people used to make the claim that NVIDIA was weaker at inference.

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[SPEAKER_05] Then they bought Grok and obviously blah, blah, blah. [SPEAKER_05] But he talked about that award maybe a dozen times during this press conference too. [SPEAKER_05] So anyway, he's a real person. Not only is NVIDIA an important technology company, but he is relishing this moment.

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Why not?

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[SPEAKER_04] Give it to him. [SPEAKER_05] And soaking it all in. [SPEAKER_05] It's not good or bad. [SPEAKER_05] It's just there are a lot of CEOs.

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You cannot get Sundar on a stage. You can't even really get Mark on a stage or Demis on a stage or, I mean, it's interesting. [SPEAKER_02] Well, I think that it's an interest, power to the guy, right? [SPEAKER_02] He toiled away building this technology, fundamental chip technology company for a lot of years before this current thing happened. [SPEAKER_02] Right. [SPEAKER_02] So in a way, it's a new thing. [SPEAKER_02] Right.

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[SPEAKER_02] And it's the payoff of a really long journey. [SPEAKER_05] Totally. [SPEAKER_05] Totally.

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And I will say the other things I learned from conversations there is the ecosystem is strong. The narrative is they have the dominant piece of hardware for this AI revolution. But I got this sense that they also have been working with so many companies and so many industries in a really hands-on way to help them and build alongside them. [SPEAKER_02] It's a really impressive company on that front. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Sometimes you hear complaints because no one likes to be beholden to one supplier for anything.

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But the flip side of that is you really get a sense of how they earned it and are deeply, deeply integrated with all of these partners, which I think is important to understand for the question of how easy will it be for people to switch and so forth? [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_05] But I got this sense that they also have been working with so many companies and so many industries in a really hands-on way to help them and build alongside them.

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[SPEAKER_02] It's a really impressive company on that front. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Sometimes you hear complaints because no one likes to be beholden to one supplier for anything. But the flip side of that is you really get a sense of how they earned it and are deeply integrated with all of these partners, which I think is important to understand for the question of how easy will it be for people to switch and so forth? [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_02] I mean, I sat there, Jess, and I was like, we in the tech business spend so much time talking about the AI application layer at the end of the day, right? [SPEAKER_02] Or whatever you want to call it, the foundation models and then the applications on top of them. [SPEAKER_02] But there's this other company called Nvidia, which is the actual company that is the platform that we're all building on top of. [SPEAKER_02] And we're so abstracted away from it now that yes, we talk about it. [SPEAKER_02] Yes. [SPEAKER_02] You talk about the public stock and how it's been ripping and all these kinds of things.

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[SPEAKER_02] But the Nvidia conversation is so abstracted from the everyday tech talk that it is really shocking to sit there. [SPEAKER_02] I was just in awe of the whole thing. Yeah. Talk about the keynote, Dave, and what stood out. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, it was very long.

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I'm very impressed by him.

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[SPEAKER_04] It was three hours, first of all. [SPEAKER_04] It's definitely speaking of a man who likes to speak. [SPEAKER_04] That's a lot of energy to put out for three hours. [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. [SPEAKER_04] Apparently he needs a lot of snacks. [SPEAKER_04] I also learned that. [SPEAKER_04] When I was, if anyone wants to watch it, Britt Morin is featured at two hours and 21 minutes. [SPEAKER_04] So just fast forward to that part. [SPEAKER_04] What are you featured for? [SPEAKER_04] Clock on. [SPEAKER_02] I mean, it's really impressive that the guy can go three hours with no notes. [SPEAKER_02] You gotta give him props.

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[SPEAKER_02] You couldn't speak for three hours with no notes? [SPEAKER_01] I could. Dave could definitely speak for three hours. I think this one point is a little overrated. He also was speaking extemporaneously. You could tell it wasn't super polished every word, which was fine. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, sure. [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I think he put a lot of work into it, but I guess I was just struck by what I said, that here's this company that happened to build the right technology for this moment. [SPEAKER_02] It's been a long time coming, but the sheer level of, I mean, $1 trillion of demand for their chips over the next year.

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[SPEAKER_02] This is a really crazy moment. [SPEAKER_02] And I think that was also this conference this year.

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[SPEAKER_02] The energy of the whole thing was really quite impressive. [SPEAKER_02] But also says something about where we're at in this moment as an industry and as a world.

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[SPEAKER_02] And I think they're definitely at the center of it. [SPEAKER_02] And at the same time, I was like, wow, we don't talk about this enough. [SPEAKER_02] And yet there's still another company underneath this company, right? [SPEAKER_02] There's TSMC. [SPEAKER_01] And the power.

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[SPEAKER_01] Don't forget the power. Yeah. And how much we don't talk about these things in the context of the AI revolution. So I was just really struck by how big it is. I mean, the entire Shark Stadium was full, like 20, whatever. I don't know what the capacity is, but something on the order of 25,000 people completely sold out every single seat.

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[SPEAKER_02] Somebody compared it to Taylor Swift for men. [SPEAKER_02] So that was pretty funny. [SPEAKER_04] It was very male heavy. [SPEAKER_04] For straight men, Dave. [SPEAKER_02] Straight men.

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Yeah. I don't know.

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[SPEAKER_02] There's a lot of gay men there too. [SPEAKER_04] I'm saying the gay men are definitely Swifties.

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[SPEAKER_05] Well, let's talk a bit about, so one of the big announcements, and Brent, I want to bring you in on this too, it was Nemo Claw. [SPEAKER_05] So obviously we know Dave is on the board of the Open Claw Foundation and has been really involved in the development of that. [SPEAKER_05] And my understanding is Nemo. [SPEAKER_02] I'm now calling myself the consigliere of Open Claw. [SPEAKER_02] It seems like. [SPEAKER_05] I don't know if you want to call yourself that. [SPEAKER_05] We'll have to think about whether that's a good self-anointed title. [SPEAKER_05] It's a title. Chief Claw. I don't know. I don't know if you want to do a lot of things. Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_05] But so Jensen was very excited and Peter, the Open Claw founder was there, right? Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_02] Yeah. [SPEAKER_02] Peter and I were there.

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And one of our chief maintainers, there were three of us representing Open Claw. [SPEAKER_05] So talk about Nemo Claw.

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[SPEAKER_02] Yeah. [SPEAKER_02] So Nvidia has been really helpful to Open Claw over the last many weeks. [SPEAKER_02] They've actually brought engineering resources to bear. [SPEAKER_02] One of the hardest problems that we've had is getting really talented engineering talent involved in the world of maintaining Open Claw as it's scaled up so fast. [SPEAKER_02] It's been really chaotic. [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I've been comparing this. [SPEAKER_02] The only other time I've been in the center of the storm like this was when I was working on Facebook platform at Facebook in 2006, 2007.

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[SPEAKER_02] And the speed at which this has grown, I think outstrips anybody's ability to execute. [SPEAKER_02] And the hardest part has been maintaining all of the pull requests that are coming in as well as the security reports. [SPEAKER_02] And so Jensen and the team at Nvidia contributed engineering resources.

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One of the big things with Open Claw, there's been a narrative out there that it's not secure, that it's not safe. And so we wanted to work on that with Nvidia. And so over the last couple of weeks, we put together these two things.

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[SPEAKER_02] One's called Nemo Claw.

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[SPEAKER_02] The other one is called Open Shell. [SPEAKER_02] Nemo Claw is a reference implementation that makes it easy with one command just to set up Open Claw on-prem with really good security guardrails, privacy controls, and importantly, support for local models. [SPEAKER_02] And the hardest part has been maintaining all of the pull requests that are coming in as well as the security reports. [SPEAKER_02] And so Jensen and the team at Nvidia contributed engineering resources.

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One of the big things with Open Claw, there's been a narrative out there that it's not secure, that it's not safe. And so we wanted to work on that with Nvidia. And so over the last couple of weeks, we put together these two things. One's called Nemo Claw. The other one is called Open Shell. Nemo Claw is a reference implementation that makes it easy with one command just to set up Open Claw on-prem with really good security guardrails, privacy controls, and importantly, support for local models. A lot of folks that are setting this up in the enterprise want to be able to run open source models.

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That could be like Nemo Tron, Nvidia's local model, or it could be Mini Max or whatever you want, whatever local models you want to run, so that your agent can run entirely on-prem and no data leaves the building. And so this is just a really good reference implementation that enables that. And then you can go and customize it however you want. But it'll work on the whole Nvidia stack, makes it easy for anyone running Nvidia infrastructure. And then the second thing is this new thing we created called Open Shell, which is the secure sandbox. It's a runtime that runs underneath Nemo Claw or any agent. It just enables you to sandbox it into its own environment.

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Jensen was happy enough with it that he made it a meaningful part of his keynote.

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[SPEAKER_02] And so that was the delight for us was we weren't sure how big of a part of the keynote this might be. [SPEAKER_02] We were actually two and a half hours in going, oh, is it just going to be one slide?

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And ended up being 20 or 30 minutes of the keynote. And they made it this really wonderful storytelling about the OpenClaw community. And Jensen said that it was OpenClaw, maybe the most important piece of software created since Linux or Windows, and many other very nice things. It's great for OpenClaw, great for the movement. And frankly, I don't think would have been possible if we hadn't maintained this as an open source project. So it's exciting. [SPEAKER_05] I heard him say he thinks it's the ChatGPT moment for agents on the consumer side. Yeah, his opening slide I thought was instructive about why Jensen and Nvidia think this is an important moment.

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[SPEAKER_02] The opening slide showed the chart that everybody's seen now of the OpenClaw number of stars on GitHub going fully vertical all the way up to... [SPEAKER_01] This guy just got this in my inbox zero minutes ago from Code 2. Can you see it?

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[SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So that's the chart. And Jensen framed it as the inflection, or sorry, the inference inflection point. And I think that's true. What you're seeing is the application of inference to a lot of different domains equals extremely vertical lines. And in this case, it's the operating system for agents.

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[SPEAKER_02] And OpenClaw is, or has rapidly become the operating system for the agentic economy.

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[SPEAKER_02] And we're here now, and it's happening very quickly. And everyone's adopting it. [SPEAKER_02] One of a big stream of my meetings over the last few days at GTC were all of the different local open source models, your mini maxes. [SPEAKER_02] We've got a lot of people from China, Baidu, Xiaomi, many different companies that are all developing.

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Some are developing custom models just for OpenClaw. Some are integrating into their clouds.

[SPEAKER_02] Some are doing other interesting things. [SPEAKER_02] But we've got global interest from companies all over the world, not just American, Chinese, Europe, all over the place. [SPEAKER_02] So it's been really interesting. [SPEAKER_02] Can you back up and describe what's the software? And this is a question I ask: what is really OpenClaw? Because to me, at a high level, it's persistence and identity on some level. But unlike a Linux server, it's not a heavy piece of software. [SPEAKER_01] So when you think about how you define even the guardrails of what OpenClaw is, what is it?

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[SPEAKER_01] It blew up because it had some persistent memory and it made it really easy for less technical people to consistently interact and build skills.

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[SPEAKER_01] There's not a lot of complexity to that. [SPEAKER_01] And that's not necessarily a criticism. [SPEAKER_01] I'm just trying to understand when you really get to the heart of it, what is this thing? [SPEAKER_01] Other than a shim.

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[SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I mean, one way to describe it is that it's a personal AI agent that runs on your computer.

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[SPEAKER_01] You can get more technical about it and say it's a harness. [SPEAKER_01] A big part of what everybody's talking about right now is building harnesses or orchestrators that orchestrate all of these actions, tool calls, skills that AIs can employ. [SPEAKER_01] And so it's a really well done one of those. But just to push you, this isn't a criticism. I'm just trying to understand how you think about it. Sam's just pushing. I'm not criticizing. I'm just trying to think about how you intellectualize it. [SPEAKER_01] He's learning, Dave. [SPEAKER_01] Sam's learning. [SPEAKER_01] He's like, I can obviously publish on GitHub repo, a bunch of text files, right?

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[SPEAKER_01] And stuck into open claw or clawed or whatever. [SPEAKER_01] It's very easy. [SPEAKER_04] There's very little to it. [SPEAKER_01] Open claw will run. [SPEAKER_01] I understand why Nvidia loves it. [SPEAKER_01] Because as long as it's inference, somehow they're getting paid. [SPEAKER_01] Right. [SPEAKER_01] So six levels down, who cares what model you're running or how you're arbing it or whatever. [SPEAKER_01] But [SPEAKER_01] By the way, you'd rather not just have four major customers. [SPEAKER_01] If you're Nvidia, you'd rather have four million. [SPEAKER_01] You can have as many. It doesn't matter.

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[SPEAKER_01] You have open router. [SPEAKER_05] You can wrap between them. [SPEAKER_05] It's all power and matrix multiplication on some level. [SPEAKER_01] Right. [SPEAKER_01] And so I'm just curious, when you think about what an operating system was, versus what this is. I'll give you an example. [SPEAKER_01] By the way, you'd rather not just have four major customers. [SPEAKER_01] If you're Nvidia, you'd rather have four million. [SPEAKER_01] You can have as many. It doesn't matter. [SPEAKER_01] You have open router. [SPEAKER_05] You can wrap between them. [SPEAKER_05] It's all power and matrix multiplication on some level. [SPEAKER_01] Right.

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[SPEAKER_01] And so I'm just curious, you think about what an operating system was right, versus what this is. I'll give you an example.

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[SPEAKER_01] Someone was pointing out that there used to be this whole narrative about taking PC games and porting them to iOS or to OS X and how impossible it was and whatever. [SPEAKER_01] And now you can just do it on the fly.

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[SPEAKER_01] This is that only it truly doesn't matter. [SPEAKER_01] It's just a few text files you scrape in and it all works. [SPEAKER_01] Right.

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And so I guess the question for me is it's just pushing tokens at effectively anyone. Right.

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[SPEAKER_01] So I guess the question for me is what, when you think about the future of this, is it identity management? [SPEAKER_01] Is it enterprise use case? [SPEAKER_01] What is it other than a shim? [SPEAKER_01] I mean, you could call it an operating system. [SPEAKER_01] What was an operating system, right? [SPEAKER_01] What was Windows? [SPEAKER_01] What was Mac OS that we are using right now? Right. It was a shim. It was an abstraction layer that enabled you to do things above the assembly layer to compile things that the CPU could understand. It was a UI layer that enabled you to understand what files and folders were in a way that was visual.

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It was a bunch of runtimes and things that enabled different use cases. So you could call any of these things shims, right? It's how you put them together. And I think what was unique about what happened here with OpenClaw is that he made really interesting technical choices. Right. It's the simple node process that's running on your machine. It's largely using TypeScript, which is one of the best languages with the most support. Right. The node community is enormous.

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[SPEAKER_02] It connected any LLM via API. [SPEAKER_02] I think one of the smarter things that he did was this skill slash plugin system. [SPEAKER_02] And as you start using it, it can improve itself. [SPEAKER_02] I think this is Sriram actually who works on AI in the White House who was talking to me about this yesterday. [SPEAKER_02] One of the things he thinks is the most unique is that it's one of the first systems where you can actually teach it to improve itself. [SPEAKER_02] And that's a very unique property of it. [SPEAKER_02] And it has memory.

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[SPEAKER_02] I think one of the reasons I was drawn to it straight out of the gate was that it reads and writes files just like Unix as memory. [SPEAKER_02] And those files stay on my computer. [SPEAKER_02] I can use them as raw material for essays or podcasts or whatever it is that I'm working on. [SPEAKER_02] I now have my files on my computer and I can mix and remix them very easily. [SPEAKER_02] And it's constantly writing those and improving them and changing them and adding new ones. That's a new thing that nobody had done before.

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It can spawn sub agents to do parallel work. And the interface, I think was actually a breakthrough to Jess's point right at the beginning, which is she wanted to do something when she was away from her computer. So giving people the ability to use it over text message, whether that was Telegram or iMessage. And I actually think one of the very simple but nuanced things that was different is the way that compaction and memory is written in this version is really simple. It automatically runs a context window.

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[SPEAKER_02] Once the context window fills up to a certain level, it saves everything to a memory file. [SPEAKER_02] Which, in fairness, you can write that a bunch of different ways. [SPEAKER_02] Claude does all this as well. [SPEAKER_02] The only thing it doesn't do is let you switch which back end you're using.

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[SPEAKER_02] And I think that's important.

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[SPEAKER_02] No, I get it. [SPEAKER_02] I just wonder when you look at something like NanoClaw, which is a separate project. I just wonder how it evolves, right? Because to me, it's imagine a future, imagine you had OSes, but it was unbelievably easy to make your own OS. How does that ecosystem work? [SPEAKER_02] You know, that's almost the question. I think it's just Ubuntu and there are many flavors of Linux, right? For one reason or the other, massive communities generate around different types of Linux. There are lots of flavors of Linux. But when you boot up a new droplet on DigitalOcean, you have to choose between Ubuntu and all these other flavors.

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Okay, you've lost me at droplets.

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[SPEAKER_01] You've lost me at droplets, guys. [SPEAKER_02] I'm sorry.

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[SPEAKER_02] This is good, but... [SPEAKER_02] Jess chooses Ubuntu. [SPEAKER_02] You're actually using one right now. [SPEAKER_05] You don't even realize it. [SPEAKER_05] I'm using so many droplets and tokens and all of these things. [SPEAKER_05] But breaking news from the Information. [SPEAKER_05] Sorry, I interrupt this program. Uh-oh. Right turn. I'll call you later, Dave. [SPEAKER_05] Guys, inside Meta, a rogue AI agent triggers security alert. [SPEAKER_05] We just published another story. [SPEAKER_05] These have happened before. [SPEAKER_05] Was it a CLAW or a different agent? [SPEAKER_05] It was an in-house tool similar to OpenCLAW.

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[SPEAKER_05] To be clear, nothing was exposed publicly. [SPEAKER_05] But I'm going to read this because it's very technical. [SPEAKER_05] It's not possible. [SPEAKER_05] A rogue AI agent triggered a major security alert at Meta by taking action without approval that led to exposure of sensitive information and user data to Meta employees who could not authorize it. [SPEAKER_05] It sounds like an intern. [SPEAKER_05] You know how many interns have done that?

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[SPEAKER_05] Is this happening at every company in America right now? [SPEAKER_05] I know. [SPEAKER_05] They weren't using NemoCLAW because that's the secure enterprise agent. [SPEAKER_05] Wait, let Dave comment. [SPEAKER_01] And then, Britt, I want your take on all this. [SPEAKER_01] I said Meta is releasing a version of this story every couple of weeks. [SPEAKER_05] But I'm going to read this because it's very technical. [SPEAKER_05] It's not possible. [SPEAKER_05] A rogue AI agent triggered a major security alert at Meta by taking action without approval that led to exposure of sensitive information and user data to Meta employees who could not authorize it.

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[SPEAKER_05] It sounds like an intern. [SPEAKER_05] How many interns have done that? [SPEAKER_05] Is this happening at every company in America right now? [SPEAKER_05] I know. [SPEAKER_05] They weren't using NemoCLAW because that's the secure enterprise agent. [SPEAKER_05] Wait, let Dave comment. [SPEAKER_01] And then, Britt, I want your take on all this. [SPEAKER_01] I said Meta is releasing a version of this story every couple of weeks. [SPEAKER_04] And so it's hard not to— [SPEAKER_01] They're not releasing this story. [SPEAKER_04] They released it. [SPEAKER_04] Just broke it.

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[SPEAKER_04] They're fundamentally not releasing the fact that they gave employees access to data they shouldn't have inadvertently. They're not happy about this, but you think they're trying to make OpenCLAW seem less secure because whatever they're going to do is going to be more secure? Maybe. [SPEAKER_05] Okay. [SPEAKER_05] Well, that's not what happened here, but they could be doing that. They had this security engineer whose WhatsApp got hacked by an agent or something like that. [SPEAKER_05] That was three weeks ago. [SPEAKER_05] It just seems a lot of this coming. Maybe that's how their security organization works these days.

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[SPEAKER_05] I don't know, but it just seems a lot of that type of information coming out of there. [SPEAKER_05] The bots are not okay. Britt, I want your take. We should also talk, we should shift CLAW slightly because guys, Horizon Worlds has been shut down too. What's that? That Meta's thing?

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[SPEAKER_02] That was one of Meta's Metaverse products. [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, but we knew that was happening.

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[SPEAKER_05] I saw a great tweet from someone, Kylie Robeson, who said, it turns out it didn't have legs.

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[SPEAKER_05] Do you guys remember? [SPEAKER_02] The avatars are like Legolas. [SPEAKER_05] So they were. [SPEAKER_05] That was Kylie's tweet. [SPEAKER_05] I like the tweet I saw was just saying that it was Meta shuts down Horizon's universe. [SPEAKER_05] Both users are very upset.

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[SPEAKER_05] Okay, Britt, CLAWs, Metaverse, what's your take? [SPEAKER_05] Well, I'm going to finish on the CLAW thing and then we can pivot. [SPEAKER_05] But I want to show this chart from Open Router. [SPEAKER_01] You can see the Nvidia effect here.

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[SPEAKER_01] Jensen gives his presentation and it's already growing. [SPEAKER_01] This is Open CLAW router users, right? It's boom. [SPEAKER_04] And this is predictive thing today, of course. [SPEAKER_04] Also show the rankings down at the very bottom.

[SPEAKER_04] Because it's a good answer to Sam's question about which of these is the big one that go all the way to the bottom. [SPEAKER_04] I thought Kimmy was the biggest model. [SPEAKER_04] Look at this top apps. [SPEAKER_04] Open CLAW has 800 billion tokens. [SPEAKER_04] The next biggest one, Kilo code is 200 billion. [SPEAKER_02] The one next CLAW code is 100 billion. [SPEAKER_02] So it's literally 8x. [SPEAKER_04] I am with you, but that's a little unfair on the CLAW code side because CLAW codes tokens are all going through CLAW, right? [SPEAKER_04] Whereas I don't even know how you make CLAW.

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[SPEAKER_04] I mean, I guess you could make CLAW code talk to Open Router, but that's quite a leap, right? [SPEAKER_04] This is literally Open CLAW. [SPEAKER_04] Guys, can we talk about Janitor for a second? [SPEAKER_04] Oh, we already talked about Janitor. [SPEAKER_01] We already talked about Janitor. [SPEAKER_01] They're number 5. [SPEAKER_01] I'm telling you, there's spicy chats next. I'm saying, it makes sense that Open CLAW would... I mean, again, that's not to criticize Open CLAW.

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[SPEAKER_04] I'm pro Open CLAW. [SPEAKER_04] I'm saying, obviously CLAW code, which does CLAW directly.

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I mean, the fact that it's almost 10% or actually more than 10% of Open CLAW, given how hard it is to make CLAW code talk to Open Router, is the opposite.

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It shows the opposite story.

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[SPEAKER_01] Yeah, it depends on which story you're talking about, Sam. [SPEAKER_01] You were asking a question about what's the difference between Nanoclaw, Open CLAW? [SPEAKER_01] Which one is the one?

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[SPEAKER_01] And I think you look at this and it's like, well, there's one major ecosystem developing. [SPEAKER_01] There'll probably be more, right?

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[SPEAKER_01] But this is... [SPEAKER_02] I just don't even know what it is.

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But the question for me is more intellectual, which is, what even is an ecosystem when everything can be ported so easily?

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[SPEAKER_02] It's just internet, right? [SPEAKER_02] Yes, people are using Open CLAW, but if Open CLAW went away tomorrow, it would disrupt nothing, right?

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[SPEAKER_01] It would just be, fine, you just use Nanoclaw.

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[SPEAKER_01] There's no cost of switching at all. [SPEAKER_01] I don't think that's how human communities work.

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[SPEAKER_01] You've articulated perhaps better than anyone that communities of trust matter more than ever in the current internet. [SPEAKER_01] And I think that's partially what's going on here is we've been trying to do this Open CLAW thing in a very transparent, very trustworthy way. We've been trying to set this up in a way that respects the community that's growing around it and establishes more trust over time to combat the question that you're talking about. And there's a lot of other ways to do it. If one company had back to your question at the beginning of the episode, what is the Open CLAW's found?

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[SPEAKER_02] What are we doing with the Open CLAW Foundation? [SPEAKER_02] At the end of the day, open source projects die when one company captures them, right? [SPEAKER_02] And so we have to set up a 501c3 that enables it so that no single company captures it.

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No one can control it.

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[SPEAKER_02] We're doing this in a maximally trustworthy way. [SPEAKER_02] that you're talking about. [SPEAKER_02] And there's a lot of other ways to do it. [SPEAKER_02] If one company had, back to your question at the beginning of the episode, what is the Open CLAW Foundation? [SPEAKER_02] What are we doing with the Open CLAW Foundation? [SPEAKER_02] At the end of the day, open source projects die when one company captures them, right? [SPEAKER_02] And so we have to set up a 501c3 that enables it so that no single company captures it. [SPEAKER_02] No one can control it.

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[SPEAKER_02] We're doing this in a maximally trustworthy way. [SPEAKER_02] Yes, I think that trust is the right word, which is if you said to me, the reason Open CLAW is what everyone uses is because everyone else is worried that NanoCLAW or the thousand other things that are exactly the same might steal their data. [SPEAKER_02] And this one everyone trusts.

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[SPEAKER_02] That's a valid answer, which is if you're pumping everything through it, then all that matters is security and trust.

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[SPEAKER_01] And the very best open source projects throughout time have tried to do that. [SPEAKER_01] We've been getting great advice from folks at the Mozilla Foundation and the Linux Foundation and many others, the great open source foundations upon which the internet has been built, have tried to do their best around trust. [SPEAKER_01] And it's a meandering road. [SPEAKER_01] You've got to do the best that you can. [SPEAKER_02] But I think that's the answer here. [SPEAKER_02] Dave, is it at the end the reason I'm going to use the Open CLAW instead of CLAW Code Cost? [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

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I mean, I think that. Which is a good reason.

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[SPEAKER_02] That's one of the reasons. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. [SPEAKER_05] Right. [SPEAKER_02] I've said it a lot on this pod and in many other contexts lately, but there's somewhere on the order of four to six billion people on the internet. [SPEAKER_02] There are a billion people today using ChatGPT. [SPEAKER_02] There's some very much smaller number of people using CLAW and the related ecosystem.

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[SPEAKER_02] And this technology should be available to more people in the world. [SPEAKER_02] Great AI harness plus great model should be available for free to as many people in the world as possible. [SPEAKER_02] And so one of the reasons I'm so passionate about this is that I really believe in this idea of personal AI that you should be able to have an AI that runs on whatever computer you have access to and runs whatever model you can afford to run. [SPEAKER_02] And that should be available to as many people in the world as possible.

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[SPEAKER_02] You shouldn't have to pay to access some form of AI. [SPEAKER_02] Next week or in two weeks, we're hosting in San Francisco a creators learn how to use bots for real day, actually two days, including a hackathon.

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[SPEAKER_02] It's going to be really fun. [SPEAKER_02] And there it's a pretty exciting one. [SPEAKER_02] So you can evangelize through the creator. [SPEAKER_02] It's going to be awesome.

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Actually, Dave, I think you're going to love it. We have TAs coming. We have a full on hackathon all with big creators. And the question is, how do you leverage this for real? Yeah, I mean, one way to think about it is that agents or claws are the new website, right? And in the late 90s, you had to figure out how to make a website for yourself, right? And so a lot of people figured out how to build a website that was about identity or about content.

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[SPEAKER_01] Some people built them for commerce, some people built them for all the myriad reasons, right? [SPEAKER_01] And I think that's where we're headed. And so it's going to be a decade of building agents. And so that's great. I'm down. Come hang.

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[SPEAKER_02] Dave, some alarm bell just went off for me, I'm interested what people think about this. [SPEAKER_02] In my world, I hear from people all the time that information should be free. [SPEAKER_02] Information wants to be free. [SPEAKER_02] And of course, that's half the quote. [SPEAKER_02] And I obviously agree with that for some information and vehemently disagree for other information that is deeply expensive to produce and would not exist without a business model for the information. [SPEAKER_02] But this is probably not worth going down, but I wonder how we'll see the intelligence conversation play out in that way.

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[SPEAKER_05] And I think we should mention that another headline this week has been OpenAI focusing on enterprise and following the Information's reporting about the code red several months ago in terms of competing with Gemini. [SPEAKER_05] And so that's why they're sort of entering another strategic review period where they're going to focus on enterprise and coding and get rid of what they call side quests, which those among this group will know is a very meta term. [SPEAKER_05] One of Mark's favorite things is to talk about side quests.

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[SPEAKER_05] That'll be interesting for their recruiting because they've recruited based on the thesis of side quests. [SPEAKER_05] But they're going to. [SPEAKER_05] So what was your take on that? [SPEAKER_05] I'm sure you guys saw the headlines. [SPEAKER_05] I mean, I didn't, but I think for me, it's the story of OpenAI is the business model going round and round of how they're going to make money, right? [SPEAKER_01] And we've seen this cycle several times before, where it's just oh, consumers hard, enterprise hard, consumers hard.

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[SPEAKER_05] So I'm just I don't know, I'm where I always am on this, which is they're searching for a business model that's going to make them money. [SPEAKER_05] And I think it's very difficult. [SPEAKER_05] And honestly, I do think that if they're on the enterprise side, having seen the Information's reporting, it seems quite likely that two months from now, the story is going to be that Claude is actually making way more money than OpenAI. [SPEAKER_01] And I think that's going to be a big blow to their narrative. [SPEAKER_01] I feel like OpenAI also has a large enterprise business, though. [SPEAKER_01] I don't have—

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[SPEAKER_01] Maybe, but remember, you're telling your own reporting about those lines. [SPEAKER_01] Those lines are your reporting, right? [SPEAKER_01] And those lines say— [SPEAKER_01] No, I know. [SPEAKER_05] The lines are clear, but the lines could totally cross.

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[SPEAKER_05] The lines could totally not cross between Anthropic and OpenAI. I'll just push you on this. Your reporting over the last several months— 40 reporters, yes. I feel like open AI also has a large enterprise business, though. I don't have-

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[SPEAKER_01] Maybe, but remember, you're telling your own reporting about those lines. [SPEAKER_01] Those lines are your reporting, right? [SPEAKER_01] And those lines say- [SPEAKER_01] No, I know. [SPEAKER_05] The lines are clear, but the lines could totally cross. [SPEAKER_05] The lines could totally not cross being anthropic and open AI. [SPEAKER_01] I'll just push you on this.

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[SPEAKER_01] Your reporting over the last several months-

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[SPEAKER_01] [SPEAKER_01] 40 reporters, yes. [SPEAKER_05] Your team's reporting. [SPEAKER_05] My team's reporting, yep. [SPEAKER_01] 40 on edit, yes. [SPEAKER_01] Something would have to change in a dramatic fashion for Claude to not cross open AI in the next two months. Something weird would have to happen. [SPEAKER_01] Oh, two months would be tough. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, no, I think that's true, but- [SPEAKER_05] On the ARR basis, whatever you guys are calculating. [SPEAKER_01] So is that the story then? [SPEAKER_01] I know. [SPEAKER_01] So that is definitely one of the stories. [SPEAKER_05] And if that happens, that would be a story.

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[SPEAKER_05] And obviously, the pivot to enterprise and coding within open AI is because they fear that might happen, as they're all trying to hit the public markets and raise more money than ever has been raised in the history of mankind at valuation. [SPEAKER_01] So the timing isn't opportune. [SPEAKER_01] But when I talk to businesses or third parties, they talk about open AI having a massive enterprise business. [SPEAKER_05] And in fact, their consumer business gave them an early mover advantage in the enterprise, these people say, because of marketing. [SPEAKER_05] And so I'm a little confused.

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[SPEAKER_05] Yeah, I mean, a huge number of people are using them, but isn't that what they're saying? [SPEAKER_05] They're just saying we want to reallocate our human resources to focus a little bit more on growing that business faster.

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[SPEAKER_05] Isn't that the message? [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_05] I want to know what's going to happen to the device, guys. [SPEAKER_05] I want to know what's going to happen to the device because- [SPEAKER_02] Is that a side quest? [SPEAKER_02] Did they say they were canceling it? [SPEAKER_02] Well, that's meant to be a consumer device. [SPEAKER_05] I haven't seen the stories. [SPEAKER_05] Did they say they were canceling it? [SPEAKER_05] No, this is a theory.

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I don't think there's been reporting about them canceling it. Neither do I think they will. [SPEAKER_05] I also think it's a side quest, though. So I think that if you were really, I don't know. I don't know enough about it, but it's- And obviously there's a lot more reporting to be done, but it's really a good old bare knuckle- [SPEAKER_05] Oh my God, we haven't talked about my Travis reporting, guys. [SPEAKER_05] That was in the last week? [SPEAKER_05] It was. [SPEAKER_05] But it's Lyft v Uber times 10,000.

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Yeah, totally. How do we all feel about getting in a Travis Kalanick-made self-driving car? I thought we were going to talk about the Vibe Coding Apple thing. Oh, we are, Dave. We are. Okay. [SPEAKER_02] Moving on to that. So we know we have this explosion in Vibe Coding apps, and not just apps that are solely dedicated to Vibe Coding, but Vibe Coding features inside apps. [SPEAKER_02] Canvas, Snap, right?

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[SPEAKER_05] All these companies let you do things.

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And my colleagues reported this week at the Information that those apps are getting stymied in the App Store review process because Apple is claiming it fundamentally changes the nature of what these apps are. So some are getting through. You can obviously access Claude through the App Store.

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[SPEAKER_05] But we hear that a lot of startups are getting caught up in this. [SPEAKER_05] What are you guys hearing? [SPEAKER_05] Oh, man. [SPEAKER_05] Oh, boy. [SPEAKER_05] My more or less app is stuck in App Review. [SPEAKER_05] Okay, that doesn't count. [SPEAKER_05] Dave, what about you?

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I have things to say. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, this has been near and dear to us.

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I've said back. You have the microphone. [SPEAKER_05] I have. [SPEAKER_05] This is a Dave episode.

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[SPEAKER_01] I like it. [SPEAKER_04] The floor is yours again, Dave.

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[SPEAKER_04] No, you should do it. [SPEAKER_04] You should do it. [SPEAKER_04] You've been fighting this battle. [SPEAKER_04] So the information piece is great. [SPEAKER_04] Jess, I think we need to adjust the framing a little bit.

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[SPEAKER_04] Because I think setting the record straight.

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[SPEAKER_04] We've been living this for the last six months. [SPEAKER_04] We have a company that we're very close with and working on called BitRig. [SPEAKER_04] This is the co-founders of actually Swift UI, which is one of the best Apple frameworks in the Swift world.

SPEAKER_05

[SPEAKER_02] So a bunch of ex-Apple. [SPEAKER_02] It's a whole ex-Apple team.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] They're world class engineers. [SPEAKER_02] They were part of iOS and macOS engineering for the last decade.

SPEAKER_05

[SPEAKER_02] Really good guys. [SPEAKER_02] They've been blocked since November. [SPEAKER_02] Wow. [SPEAKER_02] What does the app do? [SPEAKER_02] It's a vibe coding app. [SPEAKER_02] So it was one of the first apps to enable the creation. [SPEAKER_02] I think of it as an iPhone app that creates iPhone apps. [SPEAKER_02] And I was really excited about this idea last summer.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_05] Right? [SPEAKER_05] And say the name again for people who haven't heard it. It's called BitRig.

SPEAKER_05

[SPEAKER_02] BitRig. [SPEAKER_02] BitRig. [SPEAKER_02] Okay.

SPEAKER_02

BitRig. [SPEAKER_05] B-I-T-Rig.

SPEAKER_05

[SPEAKER_02] And, you know, I want to reframe this though, that it's not really about app store revenue.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_05] Most BitRig users want to publish to the app store. [SPEAKER_05] It's also not about protecting Xcode. [SPEAKER_05] Right?

SPEAKER_05

[SPEAKER_02] There was some sense, I think in that article that potentially this is about protecting Xcode. [SPEAKER_02] I don't think it is. [SPEAKER_02] Apple's always allowed React Native and Flutter and all these different developer tools. [SPEAKER_02] The actual issue which you guys did mention in the article is this guideline 2.5.2, which is that apps can't download and execute code that changes functionality. [SPEAKER_02] That's always been this gray area in the app guidelines. [SPEAKER_02] And look, if I worked at Apple, I know how seriously they take user trust. [SPEAKER_02] Right? It's also not about protecting Xcode. Right?

SPEAKER_05

[SPEAKER_02] There was some sense, I think in that article that potentially this is about protecting Xcode.

SPEAKER_02

I don't think it is.

SPEAKER_05

[SPEAKER_02] Apple's always allowed React Native and Flutter and all these different developer tools.

SPEAKER_02

The actual issue which you guys did mention in the article is this guideline 2.5.2, which is that apps can't download and execute code that changes functionality.

SPEAKER_05

[SPEAKER_02] That's always been this gray area in the app guidelines. [SPEAKER_02] And look, if I worked at Apple, I know how seriously they take user trust. [SPEAKER_02] Right? [SPEAKER_02] Well, we just said that's all that matters. [SPEAKER_02] That's the only thing that matters for OpenClaw. [SPEAKER_02] All that matters is trust and security. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. [SPEAKER_02] And so if a vibe coding app, which was approved by the app store review process, right? [SPEAKER_02] Which when they do the app store review process, they want to figure out what your app is doing, what data it's accessing, are there any risks? [SPEAKER_01] Right?

SPEAKER_05

[SPEAKER_01] Like apps that are on the phone can access things like HealthKit. [SPEAKER_01] Right?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Let's say a vibe coding app of some kind was able to do this. [SPEAKER_02] And after it's submitted and it's on people's phones, it can generate new code that could exfiltrate your HealthKit data. [SPEAKER_02] That would be bad.

SPEAKER_05

[SPEAKER_02] Right? [SPEAKER_02] That'd be a real problem.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] And so I think their caution is warranted.

SPEAKER_04

[SPEAKER_02] I don't think it's malicious here. [SPEAKER_02] They've blocked updates. [SPEAKER_02] They haven't pulled apps. [SPEAKER_02] Right? [SPEAKER_02] So it seems like they're buying time to figure out the right policy. [SPEAKER_02] But we've got an app that's been blocked since November. [SPEAKER_02] We've submitted multiple times. [SPEAKER_02] We've worked with the app store review team. [SPEAKER_02] We've gone all up and down the chain. [SPEAKER_02] They've all been rejected.

SPEAKER_02

And these guys are just trying to run a business. Right? And so I think they, plus all the venture capital and people behind all of these apps in the ecosystem, just need clarity so that we know where to invest. Right? So what we've done at BitRig, we've actually done some of what you guys have talked about in that article. We went server side with it. Now you can generate code on a server in a virtual machine and you can display that in a popup. Right? But even there, Apple's like, well, you can't display it in a popup in the app. You have to display it in Safari so that the user is not confused. And I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

I just hope we can take this to a new level of conversation.

SPEAKER_05

[SPEAKER_02] I appreciate the article that you guys built out today, Jess. [SPEAKER_02] I think this is a complex issue and it's about trust and security around the user's data.

SPEAKER_02

But at the same time, it's super clear. If you just look at the number of apps that have been submitted to the app store, that number is going vertical. Right? So people are generating apps with Vibe coding tools and agentic engineering tools. And this has become a really serious part of the ecosystem very, very quickly.

SPEAKER_05

[SPEAKER_02] You didn't just sit there in the middle of the NVIDIA conference yesterday.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, this is becoming an enormous part of what we do and how people build apps.

SPEAKER_05

[SPEAKER_02] And so I think it's like a pressure cooker, the pot's boiling over. [SPEAKER_02] And I'm hoping we can have a more sophisticated conversation with Apple about this and figure this out sooner rather than later. [SPEAKER_02] Our 11 year old even Vibe coded his first app that we are on the brink of trying to submit to the app store.

SPEAKER_02

And it's like he's built a game. To think about, maybe they're just afraid of the influx. Like they don't have a team and processes and tech and agents to be monitoring a 10x or 100x amount of apps in the app store. Well, this is the Apple that told me I couldn't list text on red on my website. [SPEAKER_04] So maybe they could just pick some better battles. [SPEAKER_04] I think that has to be it for it. I mean, I heard that OpenAI and some of the bigger apps have been stuck in the queue for a month for changes that are unrelated to Vibe code. [SPEAKER_04] It's just random changes unrelated. [SPEAKER_05] It's not Vibe coding. [SPEAKER_05] They're just like,

SPEAKER_02

That's interesting too. I keep hearing that big apps are stuck for a long time, which that's not good either. I totally understand this triggering new things that Apple has to sort through and figure out and communicate.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] But if you're Apple, Vibe coding is also an opportunity to the point Dave you said of the explosion of apps, but it's also a threat in that you can do more within a chat interface and get more functionality without having to go through apps. [SPEAKER_02] Right? I mean, it's both. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I just don't think that's the issue here.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_05] I really don't. I think it comes down to can you build an app, submit it to the app store? And then they look. You know, they do a lot of stuff. They look at is the code good? [SPEAKER_05] Is there anything malicious in it? [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, yeah, I know. [SPEAKER_05] And then once it gets on everybody's phones, can it now generate new code that does a completely new thing inside of its own sandbox? [SPEAKER_05] You know, we see this in the open cloud ecosystem too, right?

SPEAKER_02

Because we're seeing this with all the skills, right, that are being generated. We had to build an entire approval process now for skills, because the skills that were going into the open cloud, that was the thing making open cloud unsafe, was that people would download a new skill and then there would be instructions in there that would exfiltrate data or do something nefarious. And so it's a very similar problem. I actually 100% get it. I also think Apple has a history of saying things are privacy related, and then letting them do it and not letting other people do it, ad targeting, for example.

SPEAKER_02

So I think developers and the ecosystem is smart to be watchful of this. And I think it's really early days around these apps and what it means for the ecosystem, but the security issues do make sense. [SPEAKER_05] And to your point, I would want them to be policing apps from fundamentally changing and accessing things that they couldn't and that kind of stuff. But yeah, I thought it was a good issue that the team nuanced to the ground there. So yeah, they did a great job. Hopefully I can add and we can add and you know, I think however we can help with this.

SPEAKER_02

I actually 100% get it. I also think Apple has a history of saying things are privacy related, and then letting them do it and not letting other people do it, ad targeting, for example. So I think developers and the ecosystem is smart to be watchful of this. And I think it's really early days around these apps and what it means for the ecosystem, but the security issues do make sense. [SPEAKER_05] And to your point, I would want them to be policing apps from fundamentally changing and accessing things that they couldn't.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, I thought it was a good issue that the team nuanced Russell to the ground there. So yeah, they did a great job. Hopefully I can add and we can add, and I think however we can help with this. I mean, it's hard. It's a very nuanced conversation. And people do not like talking about Apple publicly. So props to the team for having actual examples. What else folks? I think we've all, I think we lost Sam. He claims a technical issue. I got 10 bucks, he's sauna-ing. I don't know that for a fact. I got booted.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_05] Well, we are having weird technical issues with Riverside. We've had screen sharing that won't stop. So hopefully all of our streams are okay and this comes across to everybody. Riverside's agents have taken over our computers. [SPEAKER_05] What's been going on? I've got one fun thing from the Lesson household to report, but any fun things from the Morin household besides Vibe Coded apps going to app stores? [SPEAKER_05] No, it's all claw all the time. No, we had to create our son's first LLC for his Vibe Coded app. So that was a monumental moment. [SPEAKER_05] Baby's first LLC. You must have been so proud. We had a little LLC party. Got him a cake.

SPEAKER_02

It won't be his last, Brett. It won't be his last. No, I know. He's going to bite and he's going to overtake me and Dave's number of LLCs by age 16. I guarantee you. [SPEAKER_05] It's, do you celebrate that or going to prom? Is prom still a thing? I don't know. [SPEAKER_05] I'm pretty proud of him. He made a pretty great iOS game. It's legitimately good. From my product guy's eye. [SPEAKER_05] Why are you promoting it? [SPEAKER_05] He's doing it. He's doing it. We will once it's in the app store. We'll tell everyone about it. It can be an ad on more or less.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_05] I think we should all be very cautionary about Gen Alpha right now, the 10 to 15 year olds. Their use of AI is growing faster than anyone's. [SPEAKER_05] We got intel from Clawcon Austin, the open claw meetup, and the best presenters and developers of the night were these 12 to 14 year olds from the alpha school in Austin, which is the AI school. They blew away the adults.

SPEAKER_02

And it was unbelievably night and day what these kids presented versus the normie developers, the gen Z years and millennials. So I think there could be interesting new cohort or fellowship program or something for the Gen Alpha AI developer ecosystem. Just sit on it. I just think it's so cool. [SPEAKER_05] You know, when I was a kid, I would go over to my grandfather's house and use his Macintosh plus, and it had this app on it called HyperCard, which made it possible to build games. And it was super fun and it really gave me the sense that I could create anything on the computer. And it's been an interesting thing the last, being a parent of kids that are now 10 or 11,

SPEAKER_02

there hasn't been a tool that you could give to the kids and they could create what they want to create on the computer without learning really complex interfaces.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_04] If you're trying to 3D print something, the CAD interfaces are so difficult and to make software. It's all the software development environments are really hard to learn. And so it's been magic to watch our 11 year old take open claw and create exactly what was in his mind. And that to me says maybe the kids are going to be all right. They've got really fun tools that makes it possible to build things for the first time in a while. And that's, to me, a very optimistic take on what's going on right now. So the kids are going to be all right. [SPEAKER_04] Cap, I finally set up and I'm embarrassed it's taken me this long. Our board.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_05] Do you guys know what board.fun is? [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, we got one. We have one.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah. Oh my God. Guys. I let down my seven year old by adding a burger too late to the burger order in Chop Chop, thereby adding to our food waste bill, thereby letting down me and my three boys as we were playing this awesome restaurant game. For those of you who don't know, it's a physical game board that's digital with some physical pieces. So it's a combination of digital and physical interaction and it's so social. We've only played one game so far, Chop Chop, and you're making things at a restaurant and you have to collaborate because the tickets come in and then the lunch rush and the dinner rush and my four year old yelling because we only let him chop, but we don't let him assemble. And my seven year old's crazy because he wants to wipe everything down so you don't get the surcharges and it's wildly fun. I cannot, it's wildly fun. And my boys woke up and they're like, if we brush our teeth and eat breakfast, can we play Chop Chop before school?

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_04] They are obsessed. That's cool. But I really have to get my act together because I didn't see the time was running out on one order and I fired another bacon cheeseburger and I let down the whole family. Us millennials are the laggards these days. [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Jess, the other one that we got is the Next Playground. Have you seen this thing? [SPEAKER_04] No, but tell me.

SPEAKER_02

It's a little cube that you put in front of your TV and then it has games on the TV, but you have to move your body and jump around. You can play basketball. And somebody had told me that it's the most fun family thing that they've done. And I was, I don't know. I've seen these things before, but our kids are fighting over doing this every night. They love it. Yeah. And it's way better. And it uses computer vision to really know exactly where your arms are. You don't need the weird Wii paddles or anything.

SPEAKER_02

You can play basketball. And somebody had told me that it's the most fun family thing that they've done. And I was like, I don't know. I've seen these things before, but our kids are fighting over doing this every night. They love it. Yeah. And it's way better. And it uses computer vision to really know exactly where your arms are. You don't need the weird Wii paddles or anything. So you're playing tennis, you're bowling, you're playing basketball.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_05] You're doing all these things. And even our three-year-old, there are levels that are low enough for toddlers to participate. So highly recommend it. It's been a fun new family activity that's tech plus meets physical offline world. It's great.

SPEAKER_04

[SPEAKER_02] You know, the ingenuity. Well, with that friends, I think we covered some good ground and it's time for us to go check on our agents because it's been several hours. [SPEAKER_05] So without HR, they might be running amok. Sam's master of bots is probably at it. And yeah. So thank you all for listening as always. And the feedback, even if you didn't like this episode, we will forgive you. And the selfies. And this, I love. I got, you feel like Jensen out there. And with that, I think the ladies will be here next week, but not the men. Oh my gosh. We need to strategize on this. This is the point where we figure out our schedule.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_04] It's always this point in the episode.

SPEAKER_04

[SPEAKER_05] Yeah. For anyone listening, we do this very ad hoc. No, it's so organized. [SPEAKER_02] Some people are like, do you guys have teams of producers? And I'm like, no, we didn't. We just talked. No one thinks we have teams of producers, but that's not the vibe we're giving. But the ladies will be back here next week, maybe with some special guests. And we'll see you here. Goodbye. Bye guys.

SPEAKER_05

[SPEAKER_04] See you guys later. They're just like,

SPEAKER_02

That's interesting too. Like I keep hearing that, that like big apps are stuck for a long time, which like that's not good either. I totally understand this like triggering new things that Apple has to sort through and figure out and communicate. But if you're Apple, Vibe coding is also, it's an opportunity to the point Dave, you said of the explosion of apps, but it's also a threat in that you can do more within a chat interface and get more functionality without having to go through apps. Right? I mean, it's both. Yeah, I just, I don't think that's the issue here.

SPEAKER_05

I really don't like I think it, I think it comes down to can you, can you build an app, submit it to the app store?

SPEAKER_02

And then they, they look, you know, they do a lot of stuff they look at is the code good?

SPEAKER_05

Is there anything malicious in it? Yeah, yeah, I know. And then once it gets on everybody's phones, can it now generate new code that does a completely new thing inside of its own sandbox? You know, we see this in the open cloud ecosystem too, right?

SPEAKER_02

Because we're seeing this with all the skills, right, that are being generated, like we had to build an entire approval process now for skills, because the skills that were going into the open, that was the thing making open clause unsafe, was that people would download a new skill and then there would be instructions in there that would exfiltrate data or do something nefarious. And so it's a very similar problem. I actually 100% get it. I also think Apple has a history of saying things are privacy related, and then letting them do it and not letting other people do it, ad targeting, for example.

SPEAKER_02

So I think developers and the ecosystem is smart to be watchful of this. And I think it's really early days around these apps and what it means for the ecosystem, but the security issues do make sense.

SPEAKER_05

And to your point, I would want them to be policing apps from like fundamentally changing and accessing things that they couldn't and that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, I thought it was a good issue that the team kind of like nuanced Russell to the ground there. So yeah, they did a great job. Hopefully I can add and we can add and you know, I think however we can help with this. I mean, it's a hard, it's a very nuanced conversation that, you know. And people do not like talking about Apple publicly. So props to the team for having actual examples. What else folks? I think we've all, I think we lost Sam. He claims to a technical issue. I, 10 bucks, he's sauna-ing. I don't know that for a fact. I got booted.

SPEAKER_05

Well, we are having weird technical issues with Riverside. We've had screen sharing that won't stop all. So hopefully all of our streams are okay and this comes across to everybody. Riverside's agents have taken over our computers. What's been going on? I've got one fun thing from the Lesson household to report, but any fun things from the Morin household before besides Vibe Coded apps going to app stores? No, it's just all claw all the time. No, we had to create our son's first LLC for his Vibe Coded app. So that was like a monumental moment. Baby's first LLC. You must have been so proud.

SPEAKER_02

We had like a little LLC party, you know, got him a cake. It won't be his last, Brett. It won't be his last. No, I know. He's going to bite and he's going to like overtake me and Dave's number of LLCs by like age 16. I guarantee you.

SPEAKER_05

It's like, do you celebrate that or going to prom? Is prom still a thing? I don't know. I'm pretty proud of him. He made a pretty great iOS game. Like it's, it's legitimately good. You know, from my, from my product guy's eye. Why are you promoting it? He's doing it. He's doing it. We will once it's, once it's in the app store. We'll, we'll, we'll tell everyone about it. It can, it can be a, it can be an ad on more or less. I think we should all be very cautionary about Gen Alpha right now, like the 10 to 15 year olds. Cause like their use of AI is growing faster than anyone's.

SPEAKER_05

We got Intel from Clawcon Austin, the open claw meetup that the best presenters of all the developers of the night were these like 12 to 14 year olds from the alpha school in Austin, which is like the AI. They blew away the adults.

SPEAKER_02

And it was just, it was like unbelievably night and day what these kids presented versus normal, the normie developers, you know, the gen Z years and millennials. So I'm, I think there could be like some interesting new cohort or fellowship program or something for like the Gen Alpha AI developer ecosystem. Just, just sit on it. I just think it's so cool.

SPEAKER_05

You know, when I was a kid, I got, I would go over to my grandfather's house and use his Macintosh plus, and it had this app on it called hyper card, which made it possible to build games. And it was super fun and it made it, it really gave me the sense that I could create anything on the computer. And it's been an interesting thing the last, you know, being a parent of kids that are now 10 or 11,

SPEAKER_02

there hasn't been a tool that you could just give to the kids and they could create what they want to create on the computer without learning really complex interfaces.

SPEAKER_04

If you're trying to like 3d print something, the cat interfaces are so difficult and to make software. It's like all the software development environments are really hard to learn. And so it's been kind of magic to watch our 11 year old take open claw and create exactly what was in his mind. And, you know, like that to me says, maybe the kids are going to be all right. Like they're going to be, you know, they've got a, they've got some really, really fun tools that makes it possible to build things for the first time in a while. And that that's, that's really, to me, like a very optimistic take on what's going on right now. So in the, um, kids are going to be all right.

SPEAKER_04

Cap, I finally set up and I'm embarrassed. It's taken me this long. Our board.

SPEAKER_05

Do you guys know what board dot fun is? Yeah, we got one. We have one.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah. Oh my God. Guys. I let down my seven year old by adding a burger too late to the burger order in chop chop, thereby adding to our food waste bill, thereby letting down me and my three boys as we were playing this awesome restaurant game. For those of you who don't know, it's, it's a physical game board that's digital with some physical pieces. So it's a combination of digital and physical interaction and it's just so social.

SPEAKER_02

And so this, we've only played one game so far chop chop and you're, you're, you're making things at a restaurant and you have to collaborate because the tickets come in and then the lunch rush and the dinner rush and like my four year old yelling because we only let him chop, but we don't let him assemble. And my seven year old's crazy because he wants to wipe everything down so you don't get the surcharges and it's wildly fun. I cannot, I mean, I, it's wildly fun. And my boys woke up and they're like, if we brush our teeth and eat breakfast, can we play chop chop before school?

SPEAKER_04

Like they are obsessed. That's cool. But I really have to get my act together because I didn't see the time was running out on one order and I fired another bacon cheeseburger and I let down the whole family.

SPEAKER_02

Us millennials are the laggards these days.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Jess, the other one that we got that the next playground, have you seen this thing? No, but tell me.

SPEAKER_02

It's like a, it's a little cube that you put in front of your TV and then it, it has a, you know, games on the TV, but it, you have to move your body and like jump around. You can play basketball. And somebody had told me that it's like the most fun family thing that they've done. And I was like, I don't know. Like I've seen these things before, but our kids are like fighting over doing this every night. They love it. Yeah. And it's like, it's like, it's like, we, but like way better. And it uses computer vision to like really know exactly where your arms are. You don't need the weird we paddles or anything.

SPEAKER_02

So you're playing tennis, you're bowling, you're playing basketball.

SPEAKER_05

You're like doing all these things. And even our three-year-old there's like levels like that are low enough for toddlers to participate. So highly recommend it. It's been a fun new family, family tech plus meets physical offline world activity. It's great.

SPEAKER_02

You know, the ingenuity. Well, with that friends, I think, I think we covered some good ground and it's time for us to go check on our agents because it's been like a whole several hours.

SPEAKER_05

So without HR, they might be running amok. Sam's master of bots is probably at it. And yeah. So thank you all for listening as always. And the feedback, even if you didn't like this episode, we will forgive you. And the selfies. And this, I love, I mean, I got, you feel like Jensen out there. And with that, I think the ladies will be here next week, but not the men. Oh my gosh. We gotta, we need to strategize on this. This is the point where we figure out our schedule.

SPEAKER_04

It's always this point in the episode.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. For anyone listening, we do this very ad hoc. No, it's so organized.

SPEAKER_02

Some people are like, do you guys have like teams of producers?

SPEAKER_05

And I'm like, no, we didn't.

SPEAKER_02

We just talked. No one thinks we have teams of producers, but that's not the vibe we're given. But the ladies will be here back week with back here next week, maybe with some special guests. And we'll see you here. Goodbye. Bye guys.

SPEAKER_04

See you guys later.

SPEAKER_04

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SPEAKER_04

time.