Anthropic’s Bet on Coding Is Working (OpenAI Shopping Pivot, A16Z’s Top 50 List, $1B Tennis Channel)

SPEAKER_01

We keep analyzing whether selling intelligence is a good business, and maybe it's not. Maybe it's a commodity, maybe it's cable, whatever. That's like being in 1995, asking if selling bandwidth is a good business or not. The answer was yes, but it's not where the money ended up. The money ended up in what people built on top of it. It's not like, will the intelligence get cheaper? Is there margin in the intelligence? The question is, what can you make with it that you couldn't make before? [SPEAKER_04] We'll debate the text that's best when we get more or less. Dave and Fred plus Sam and Jess, put it all right to the test, more or less.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Why hello friends, welcome to More or Less. [SPEAKER_03] We're all back in our home territory. Hold on, what's on Sam's head right now? Can we talk about it? [SPEAKER_00] Oh my goodness. [SPEAKER_03] I mean, we could. I don't know if we want to. It looks like a lobster meets a pineapple. Or something. It's probably some weird logo for a secret society. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] It's this Instagram account I found of these old Jewish sauna men. Oh gosh. And they have all this great merch. So this is the, I bought their, we have now a beautiful tote that says Schlepp on it. It's a sauna hat. We've got a Schlepp tote. We've got sauna hats. I got hilarious t-shirts about the sauna Olympics. It's my favorite things, old Brooklyn Jewish men in saunas. So I'm here to represent it. [SPEAKER_00] This explains a lot. [SPEAKER_02] I was wondering what the tote bag was. [SPEAKER_03] So thank you for clarifying. Feels like a lot of deals could happen with old Jewish men in saunas. So.

SPEAKER_04

[SPEAKER_00] It's literally called the account is called old Jewish men. It has 600,000 followers. They're very funny. And I'm in. Cause it's all about sauna and chicken and Schlepp. It's. [SPEAKER_02] Guys, before we get started, I'd like to talk about my latest product placement. This would be, this is Kim Kardashian's energy drink. This is Kim Kardashian and Wendy Murdoch. Who's the one who sent it to me. Energy drink called Update. And I haven't had it yet. Well, for those of you, it's, come back to me. It's very sweet. Sorry, we went fully commercial. Well, this guy emailed me. [SPEAKER_00] No one's paying me for this.

SPEAKER_02

This is out of friendship here. This is definitely getting paid for.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] This is actually very exciting guys. I have our first ever on air ad. Someone wrote me back on my newsletter and had this whole thing. And he said, Sam, I want to advertise on your podcast. So you ready? This is our ad. It's for, it's from getvictor.com. And. V I K T O R. [SPEAKER_00] Get V I K T O R dot com. It finally works for reels. An AI coworker lives in Slack, connects to everyone, does actual work. So we need to go check out getvictor.com. A thousand dollar ad should go at the end of an episode, not at the beginning when everyone's listening.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_03] We're a thousand bucks for that puppy.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] Yeah. First of all, was there a vote on whether to accept this ad that I missed? Did we vote? I hope this works for you and your company. [SPEAKER_00] Sam opted in on our behalf, Jeff.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_03] Guys, we are.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. [SPEAKER_01] Sam, you better be taking us to dinner. Well, I'm happy to show you each get $250. You can spend it on whatever you want. Okay. I'm very excited about this. [SPEAKER_02] Close the loop. [SPEAKER_02] Sorry. Let me read it one more time. Yeah. [SPEAKER_02] Oh my God. Getvictor.com. Your first AI coworker lives in Slack, connects to all your tools, does actual work. One message can span your entire Slack. Think of it as a colleague that never sleeps and never forgets your company's context built by X Meta AI and Google engineers. And then it says riff on that. However it feels natural. So is that. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_03] Let's say now we get $2,000. Cause we just did it twice. [SPEAKER_03] No, but for first, I do think there are other things that do this. [SPEAKER_02] I know I can't speak skeptically about said advertising. This is our advertiser.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] What are you doing? I'm excited to try it.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] I'm going to try it tonight. [SPEAKER_00] Apparently looking at the website, you can have a hundred dollars in free credits with no credit card required and it's SOC2 compliant. We're done. Let's move on. What's the news, Jess? [SPEAKER_02] Guys, we've got real news. I'm sorry. This is going to be an AI heavy, AI business heavy episode because there's a lot going on. First of all. I have been very interested in the hard pivot of ChatGPT away from shopping and what it means. Maybe a hard pivot is too strong. A hard pivot is something you never launched. [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01] I didn't even know this was happening. You're pivoting the narrative. Guys, first of all. It's a narrative pivot. That's great. [SPEAKER_02] I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_02] This is going to be an AI heavy, AI business heavy episode because there's a lot going on. [SPEAKER_02] First of all. [SPEAKER_02] I have been very interested in the hard pivot of chat GPT away from shopping and what it means. [SPEAKER_02] Maybe a hard pivot is too strong. [SPEAKER_02] A hard pivot is something you never launched. [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. [SPEAKER_01] I didn't even know this was happening. [SPEAKER_00] You're pivoting the narrative. [SPEAKER_00] Guys, first of all.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] It's a narrative pivot. [SPEAKER_00] That's great. [SPEAKER_00] You don't even have to build anything anymore.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] Jess, you have a lot of power to pivot these narratives. [SPEAKER_01] I don't know if you should just hand it out like that. [SPEAKER_01] Well, first of all, check the thread. I gave you guys all fair wording and gave you access to all clips relevant to said discussions. Point.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] I know your thread has been about buying domain names, which we should also talk about, but I'm going to make a case for why this is important.

SPEAKER_02

We also have to check in on Anthropic v. Government, Anthropic v. Open AI. And just how good Anthropic is.

SPEAKER_00

Because I'm having a lot of fun. I want to posit a more or less style debate with a very specific question on this topic, which has also been previewed in the chat. [SPEAKER_02] If you would like to fast forward and prepare, because I think we're at a very interesting inflection point in this battle. [SPEAKER_02] I think those are our major two topics. [SPEAKER_02] We can check in on the Maltbook acquisition of Meta and what's happening in Open Clawland. [SPEAKER_02] We can check in on Brit going full bot crazy based on her social media. [SPEAKER_02] And we can also check.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] I don't know if this group likes this topic, but there's been major infrastructure shakeups. [SPEAKER_02] Oracle and Open AI have pulled out of a part of one project, which has rattled the markets. I thought you meant actual infrastructure shake because he's getting bombed.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] No, but that's also happening.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] That's also a thing that actually matters. The information reported that both Meta and Microsoft are now trying to swoop in and grab this part of the big Abilene project that you may have heard of. [SPEAKER_02] So that's also news, but I don't know. [SPEAKER_02] In fact, my extended family is in Abilene. [SPEAKER_03] Are they really? [SPEAKER_03] Yes.

SPEAKER_03

Do you mean the bots that are your extended family live in Abilene? [SPEAKER_00] I have all kinds of extended family nowadays.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_03] My family of bots live in Abilene.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] Abilene, Sam.

SPEAKER_02

Abilene. [SPEAKER_00] Whatever the...

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] Do you check in on how Brit's bots are doing?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] I really worry sometimes.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] She's got too many bots.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] She seems stressed.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] She's into some pretty weird bots, you guys.

SPEAKER_00

The misogyny bot you're into. I want to hear about your misogyny bot. Guys, this is what I was going to say. [SPEAKER_03] I guess I would be reticent to end this pod without going through the top 50 Gen AI web products by unique monthly visits, which A16Z provided this week, and some common themes I felt about this report. [SPEAKER_03] So for everyone, we are going to end with Brit's bot corner, which is going to feature her own personal experience, as well as this data.

SPEAKER_02

I do think every time I open X, I am confronted with a new chart that claims either Open AI or Anthropic is leading in some metric by a mile. Oh, we're the most time spent.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] Oh, we're enterprise. [SPEAKER_02] So the net effect of this all has made me very skeptical of AI consumer survey charts.

SPEAKER_02

As you should be.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] These guys can't stop. [SPEAKER_01] Were you not skeptical before? [SPEAKER_01] They can't stop talking about each other. [SPEAKER_01] But I, because I'm nothing if not hypocritical, I'm going to present a chart that I think is very important. [SPEAKER_02] Do you guys see this chart? [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. [SPEAKER_03] This would be the annualized revenue of Open AI and Anthropic featured in the information's new chart library, but has run in multiple stories going back to October 2023. [SPEAKER_02] And yes, we have had revenue for these companies at every step of the way, these nonpublic companies.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] And you'll see that the latest data point has Open AI at 25 billion.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] I believe it's pronounced Billy. [SPEAKER_00] Billy and Anthropic at 19 Billy. [SPEAKER_02] This chart is great strategy work, right?

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] That's what this shows. [SPEAKER_01] Say more Dave, say more.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] Anthropic was not on this trajectory as of October last year or maybe middle of last year. [SPEAKER_01] And it was really clear that they made the decision to just double down on code as the main thing that was going to be their strong differentiator.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] So what this chart shows is on the one hand, you've got the consumer Open AI juggernaut, right?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] That's got a billion users or so and a reasonably large API business, but Anthropic accelerating dramatically because of this strategic choice they made. [SPEAKER_01] Which I think you could argue if they hadn't, they may not be in the same position that they are today. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And I would tag on with, can I take over the screen?

SPEAKER_03

I'm going to show a different chart for those of you who can see this. Oh, it's wars of charts.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_03] This is my branding. This is what you can't be. [SPEAKER_00] Okay. Okay. Sorry. But I think this is kind of to what Dave's saying, like Anthropic went for developers and developers are obviously paying a lot of money and a lot of tokens, but who is winning the mainstream consumer? So much token. Is really hands down Open AI. And this chart shows that with Open AI at roughly 75 to 80% share. Yes. Gemini next with maybe 10 or 15% on this chart. [SPEAKER_03] Claude is a tiny blip. So it says a lot about the business model for sure.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] Well, but here's the question. Can I ask a question?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_03] You may. Then we're going back to my chart.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_03] Who's going to spend all the money on the intelligence? If you think about it, I think here's the thing, the question I have. [SPEAKER_02] So much token. [SPEAKER_02] It's really hands down Open AI. And this chart shows that with Open AI at roughly 75 to 80% share. [SPEAKER_02] Yes. [SPEAKER_02] Gemini next with maybe 10 or 15% on this chart. [SPEAKER_03] Claude is a tiny blip. So it says a lot about the business model for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Well, but here's the question. Can I ask a question? [SPEAKER_03] You may. Then we're going back to my chart.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_03] Who's going to spend all the money on the quote unquote intelligence? Like if you think about it, I think here's the thing, the question I have. [SPEAKER_03] And my understanding is that a lot of the consumer AI use cases, people still don't really know what to do with AI. [SPEAKER_03] The engagement is actually much lower than you'd expect day to day. What do you really need it for? And what are the consumer use cases? It's not clear. [SPEAKER_03] It's slightly better Google fine. But it's not clear you pay for more intelligence.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_03] What's interesting about developers, I think what's going on and why Anthropic is hooking the way they're hooking is basically everyone's thinking, oh shit, I could totally use way more intelligence. [SPEAKER_00] The ARPU is just through the roof. And there's this thing where you're thinking, oh yeah, if intelligence is cheap, I'm just going to assume an incredible amount of it. Right. [SPEAKER_00] So to Dave's point about the strategy, I just, it's not clear to me that there are great, really important deep AI use cases for more intelligence for the average human.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] I mean, what do they want to do? They want to flip some videos on their phone, veg out. What are they going to do with more intelligence? Whereas developers are thinking, I just built an entire app.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] My head is exploding literally in 20 minutes and launched it in the app store and you guys all have it and can use it. It's great. So I'm thinking, oh yeah, I'll burn a ton of intelligence to do that. Right. And so that's the thing. Can I try a thesis out on you guys? This is why I think Open AI's shopping pivot is such a big deal, because for the last two years, we've seen that incredible consumer growth.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] By the way, Open AI's revenue also, if we go back to my chart, which we won't, has some big lines too, Dave. So Anthropic is closing the gap for sure. But if you just saw Open AI's revenue chart, you would also have your socks knocked off. [SPEAKER_00] Although, well, yes, Sam. [SPEAKER_00] Well, although there are two things. Look, put up your chart again for some branding. [SPEAKER_00] Oh, I'd love to. Thank you. [SPEAKER_00] Put that chart back up. Brought to you by the information. [SPEAKER_00] Let's put that chart back up. Brought to you by the information. [SPEAKER_00] I mean, it is. But also this data doesn't exist. Can I just tell everyone that?

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] So look, here's the thing with that. If you look at that chart, what investors and everyone actually cares about is whether we're linear or super linear. Right? [SPEAKER_00] And what you see in the last, if you look from. [SPEAKER_00] One's going this way, one's going this way. [SPEAKER_00] It's all about what curve are you on? What's going to be really interesting is what this looks like in two months. [SPEAKER_00] Because if Anthropic is on a super linear growth curve with no asymptote in sight, they're going to blow out of the water. If Open AI is not.

SPEAKER_00

Now, the interesting thing about Open AI is if you just read the numbers, you're thinking that's great. They had a good jump from October, whatever, to November.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] I don't know what that is. Maybe some enterprise spend or something. But that is not what looks like a super linear chart. Right?

SPEAKER_00

That looks like a company scraping to make number go up.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] Whereas Anthropic, at least if you look at the last few months, looks very nicely exponential. [SPEAKER_00] So we should also note this is ARR. So you can calculate ARR in a lot of ways. I believe they both have gotten to the bottom of it. It's on a four week. [SPEAKER_00] I mean, again, these are generous ARR calculations. And I think they're apples to apples, but we would have to.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] I'm just saying it's that the only thing that matters at this stage is what is the slope? [SPEAKER_02] And if the slope is asymptoting or linear, you bad. And if the slope is exponential, maybe you good. [SPEAKER_02] We don't know. But here's something that I think is happening that's very clear, right?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] ChatGPT got the vast majority of the consumer business mind share in the chatbot wars.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] So far.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] And raised $10,000 bazillion dollars or however much based on this idea that usage translates to revenue.

SPEAKER_02

This was the dream that Meta, then Facebook, sold for years and years and has generally worked.

SPEAKER_00

It's generally been a safe bet that if you could build an audience that massive, that quickly, and in this case revenue, you're going to have some great opportunistic business models. [SPEAKER_02] So everyone bought that. And then we heard the next phase where they started to announce these other things they were doing, shopping, which is how you eventually show your investors and build up that revenue stream that supports your cost.

SPEAKER_02

And it's very clear that people inside of OpenAI think they have an opportunity to build the world's greatest shopping advertising engine beyond what Google has done, beyond what Amazon has done. [SPEAKER_00] Right. And those are the two gold standard business models. [SPEAKER_00] And what we're seeing early on is that OpenAI abandoned the plan to close the loop within ChatGPT and to get merchants to close that payment loop themselves. And they're now pushing merchants to do these in more apps they're building for ChatGPT.

SPEAKER_00

And that's the key. The second level problem now is discovery of those apps, which we know from the history of the App Store is not something you build overnight. [SPEAKER_02] But the reason, and then I'll go to you, Sam, I think this is important because I think commerce from a revenue potential is one of these big moments where OpenAI could prove that it hasn't just built this incredible brand and usage, but that it's actually going to turn it into a business. [SPEAKER_02] And early on, we see them pivoting and shifting to figure that out.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] And I think the reason that investors are obsessed with this story, and I may have mentioned this on prior pods because we've been reporting about it, but this is the number one topic people are interested in at the information right now, even more than the Trump memo or all the other stuff that we've done. [SPEAKER_00] And I think it's because investors are really wondering if this thesis as a business model for them is tricky.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] But the reason and then I'll go to you, Sam, I think this is important because I think commerce from a revenue potential is one of these big moments where OpenAI could prove that it hasn't just built this incredible brand and usage, but that it is actually going to turn it into a business. [SPEAKER_02] And early on, we see them pivoting, shifting, whatever you call it, to figure that out.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] And I think the reason that investors are obsessed with this story, and I may have mentioned this on prior pods because we've been reporting about it, but this is the number one topic people are interested in at the information right now, even more than the Trump memo or all the other stuff that we've done. [SPEAKER_00] And I think it's because investors are really wondering if this thesis as a business model for them is tricky. [SPEAKER_00] What maybe we can't just assume that they're going to win in advertising. [SPEAKER_00] Maybe we can't just assume that all these business models are there for the taking on the consumer side.

SPEAKER_02

To be clear, you just Google and Facebook, right? As your two examples.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] And Amazon. [SPEAKER_00] Well, let's start with Google and Facebook, which are actually much more profitable businesses, right? Amazon's a tough business, right? [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. [SPEAKER_00] Those two businesses are not commerce businesses. They're attention businesses and advertising businesses.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] Commerce, I remember for years, everyone was saying, well, why doesn't Meta spend time on commerce and there've been some attempts or whatever? [SPEAKER_00] You know why? Because commerce is a bad business. What's good is the attention. That's the efficient business. That's the good business. It's not closing the transaction.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] Now the problem that ChatGPT has in the advertising game is advertising fundamentally is a time spent game, right? Targeting time spent, whatever.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] And sure, they might have an advantage in targeting. They're not going to have an advantage in time spent or engagement anytime soon. [SPEAKER_00] And so then the problem becomes how are they supposed to tell that story, right? [SPEAKER_00] Without saying, well, the magical moment is we just buy all the things for you. It's an amazing experience.

SPEAKER_00

But that's a hard business, especially to actually pull off.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] So look, I think the story we've talked about this a thousand times. In fact, the bot has picked up that all I care about is narrative, right?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] But you got to remember the original OpenAI story was not about commerce and consumers, right? [SPEAKER_00] The first story was about AGI and the race to AGI. Whoever got there first would just win, right?

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] And that would be an insurmountable thing. It was a winner take all market. That's clearly not true, right?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] That's not where we're going at all, right? So then there was a pivot. For a while it was, oh, the developer platform matters and enterprise matters, but ChatGPT doesn't. [SPEAKER_02] And then it was, no, no, no, ChatGPT matters. It's been this hunt for a story that holds up effectively financially. [SPEAKER_02] And I think what we're seeing here is they're continuing to hunt, right? Everyone thematically, this stuff is good. How you actually make money on it is very TBD, right? [SPEAKER_02] And I just think the reality is they keep selling stories and then testing them and finding out they don't work, right?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Except, and I want to go to Dave on the consumer, what would your consumer revenue playbook be for ChatGPT? But just to add, we cannot forget OpenAI does have a massive enterprise business too.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] And I think Claude with code and then co-work are winning a lot of mind share. And we saw with even the own government, they got ahead of a lot of big contracts, but OpenAI is there too. [SPEAKER_00] But that's bad for both of them. Well, I don't see a world in which OpenAI doesn't build a massive enterprise business. I really do believe that. [SPEAKER_00] But the trillion dollar valuation and what they're spending a ton of time on is the consumer business side as well.

SPEAKER_00

So the way they don't build a huge business though, or it just looks like Accenture all over again, is the question of just how commodity is this intelligence?

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] Yes. No, I know. Yes. Dave, to you. And it's not clear you can build a big business that way. It's not clear, but it's not clear you can. I just think that the frame is all wrong. Everyone's arguing consumer versus developer. These are two different teams. But what's actually happening is that AI is turning everyone into a builder. The line between these two is disappearing. [SPEAKER_00] The first business model that materialized out of this entire industry was tokens, right?

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] People were using tokens to do creative projects. And at first it was software developers.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] And the software developers are certainly the ones making the most noise. But I was down in Palo Alto last night for a dinner with our friend, Scott Belsky, who's over at A24 now.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] And these guys are filmmakers, writers, creative people, right? And they're building things with AI now. And they're actually really excited about it, right? They're using tokens to make cultural impact. A24 is arguably one of the most influential storytelling machines on the planet right now. And they're really excited about what they can do with this intelligence that Sam's talking about. And that's the thing that I don't totally... [SPEAKER_02] That's the power though. I don't hear you David, but I was with another entrepreneur of ours recently who's spending hundreds of millions of dollars a year right now on all the LLMs, right?

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Hundreds of millions of dollars? [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. They're spending hundreds of millions of dollars a year run rate on inference. [SPEAKER_02] Right. You got to get your run rate up. [SPEAKER_02] And I'm, okay, I bet I can choose who this entrepreneur is.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] No, Britt, there were four labs at the table last night that said the same thing. They were, we raised a billion dollars and we're spending 900 of it on inference. [SPEAKER_02] Here's the thing about it. There's no margin for the people underneath them because they're sitting there, open RSA, they've built models and they just arbitrage between them to zero. [SPEAKER_02] Right. To your point about the Chinese open source models, they'll sit there and be, okay, this one's going to take longer, but it's cheaper or whatever. It's just the price of energy.

SPEAKER_02

So this is my whole thing about AI, OpenAI in particular, being a company that sold this vision for cheap capital and buys 20 cents on the dollar of infrastructure for it to become a power company, right?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] Is that just because you use a lot of something doesn't mean it's valuable or a good business, right? And I think this is the upshot. I don't disagree with you. [SPEAKER_02] I think this is fine. But we've said this over and over again. So where are we? Where? I don't know. [SPEAKER_02] We have to have new ideas. Well, I think that... [SPEAKER_02] I'm searching for a new, where are we going from here? [SPEAKER_02] Where we're going is that these are not good businesses. [SPEAKER_02] But everyone's using them, Sam. It's... It's so fun. Yeah. How much more would you pay, Sam? How much price elasticity does Claude have?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] I think this is fine. But we've said this over and over again. So where are we? [SPEAKER_02] We have to have new ideas. Well, I think that... [SPEAKER_02] I'm searching for a new direction. Where are we going from here? [SPEAKER_02] Where we're going is that these are not good businesses. [SPEAKER_02] But everyone's using them, Sam. You're freaking out. It's so fun. Yeah. How much more would you pay, Sam? How much price elasticity does Claude have? Oh my God. No, Britt. Britt. For Claude, very... It's for me, look, the reality is I don't... They keep raising the price and people keep paying.

SPEAKER_00

And Sam's willing to pay it. I know. That's what I'm saying. Maybe there could be a good business model.

SPEAKER_00

If you told me that, for instance, this is why maybe the pro-anthropic thing, if you said, look, Anthropic, for whatever reason, is able to build an insurmountable data flywheel and lead encoding. So no one will ever be as good as them. Right? And I actually think the way to think about it is what Claude really is, is the AI platform for rich people. Because you're like, ah, it's maybe a little bit better, but it's more expensive, but I'm rich, so who cares? That is not the way business works at scale. That, by the way, is what ChatGPT wants you to think. They have their executives tweet that all day long.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that might be right. But the thing about that is if they actually have a sustainable advantage, Apple's for rich people too. Right? That's a great business. Right? And so if you can be a premium priced thing that actually is better and is more expensive, maybe there's a defensible model in there. But I think the vast majority, the bulk of intelligence, it really just will be this ultimate arbitrage game where I don't know how anyone makes money. Because it's too easy to arbitrage. It's too easy to change models. Well, maybe... I think that's true, Sam, but it's not just about the...

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I interviewed Brett Taylor a year ago, and he talked about the business model of the foundation models being the cable infrastructure. Right? Like that being the low margin in the apps.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] But this is... But just to push you, here's the way it's so much worse than the cable business or the power business. [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Well, he's the chairman of OpenAI.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] So he wasn't going to... Right. But I'm just saying, so maybe that's his analogy, but his analogy is almost the point, which is cable businesses are regional and local monopolies. Right? Power businesses have this problem, right? Which is power distribution. You lose so much without superconductivity. You don't have a globally consolidated power market. Right? And so as a result, just because of the physics of these things, you have to literally put cables in the ground, you basically end up with a semi monopolistic, legally enforced monopolies on whatever. And they're okay businesses, they can print cash, they're not amazing. This is so much worse because you have a global frictionless competition for the cheapest power and the cheapest intelligence you can get anywhere. Right? And that means that it's going to be a way worse business than the cable model. Imagine cable, but with total perfect competition globally.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] I think it's too early to call it. I follow everything you're saying. And I think that dynamic is way stronger than the people in the industry are willing to talk about. And as I've said here, when I talked to Intrader, the CEO of CoreWeave, and he's like, there's always going to be infinite demand for intelligence. I'm like, what about the margin? I agree with all of that, but it's still so early.

SPEAKER_02

And I think it is reasonable to make a bet that all of us using these tools and having these mind blowing experiences, that some of these companies will find some way to make money off that. And it could be around different parts of it. But I want to say, to wrap this segment, oh, well, Britt, consumer question for you too. Maybe commerce isn't the thing that is a viable consumer business model for chatbots.

SPEAKER_02

I want to point out that in Asia, it is. And the agentic commerce in all these vertically integrated Chinese apps, WeChat, ByteDance, and Doyen, and all that is really growing early, but growing. And I think it's interesting because we saw both with messaging and then the on demand economy that the China internet sector figured it out. And then the U.S. really tried to imitate it. Now they're complete, the companies there are vertically integrated in a way that it could work, but not here. So I imagine there are a lot of people looking at that saying there is a way for OpenAI and Anthropic to make commerce work. [SPEAKER_00] But what do you think?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] I think there definitely is a way and I think there's consumer demand for it. Of course, I want there to be less friction when I'm shopping. And I just want to allow my agent to buy things, some things for me and to bring me other things and for me to click a button and for me to have my agent compare notes with your agent, Jess, and bring both of us the things we should wear to the thing we're going to next weekend. I think there's a social aspect, there's so much cool innovation still readily available for commerce. Agentic commerce is all over the place. And by the way, Asia has been, to your point, years ahead of the U.S. in terms of commerce for so long now. I remember when live commerce was this crazy thing to us Americans, and now it's everywhere, right? And it took us five to 10 more years to adopt it.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] So I definitely think it's going to be baked into all kinds of agentic experiences. But to your point, I'm not sure this is a huge lever OpenAI or even Anthropic has to create the next big business. That said, I think where I'll push back on Sam is that yes, for Google and Meta, it's clearly ad driven businesses, but the commerce related portion of that for Google is 25%, which of, you know, of $300 billion, let's say that's $77 billion per year in things like shopping ads, retail searches, travel bookings, and those are things that obviously can create a massive amount of revenue.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] So I don't think it's trivial that OpenAI can't take a huge swing at this market. I just think the actual checkout function and all of that is going to be an uphill battle. They can do something, but I'll give you an example. I am the king of Instagram purchases. I buy everything on Instagram, right? I buy all this random stuff that's just advertised to me and I see it six times and I eventually convert. In fact, you guys don't know. [SPEAKER_01] Can we talk about why did you buy the string bat?

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] Because it was advertised to me.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] So I don't think it's trivial that OpenAI can't take a huge swing at this market. I just think the actual checkout function and all of that is going to be an uphill battle.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] They can do something, but I'll give you an example. I am the king of Instagram purchases. I buy everything on Instagram, right? I buy all this random stuff that's just advertised to me and I see it six times and I eventually convert. In fact, you guys don't know. [SPEAKER_01] Can we talk about why did you buy the string bat?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] Because it was advertised to me. [SPEAKER_01] String bat? This is a bat. [SPEAKER_01] This is Max BP. I actually got a message from someone on Instagram this week. There was someone who said, Sam, since you've bought, I thank you for your reviews of all the baseball equipment. As a baseball dad, do you have advice on XYZ? And I'm thinking, I'm not even a baseball dad. I just got, I just buy all the things and play with them. [SPEAKER_01] If I wanted to be the ultimate troll to Sam, if I could get into metas, psychographics, demographics, and narrow, narrow, narrow, all the way down to what I know Sam is.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] Nano targeting. We used to do this.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] Just do nano targeting to Sam and then have my agent create only products I know Sam would buy. And then it's just a business of Brit selling things to Sam. [SPEAKER_01] That's the future. [SPEAKER_01] Brit, you're making the point, which is that the medium is the message. We keep analyzing whether selling intelligence is a good business. And maybe it's not. Maybe it's a commodity. Maybe it's cable, whatever. That's asking in 1995 if selling bandwidth is a good business or not. The answer was yes. But it's not where the money ended up.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] The money ended up in what people built on top of it. It's not, will the intelligence get cheaper? Is there margin in the intelligence? The question is, what can you make with it that you couldn't make before? [SPEAKER_01] So Dave, how do you model the intelligence makers coming to market seeking trillion dollar IPOs in calendar year 2026? [SPEAKER_01] It's fine. But I'm just excited about the next thing, right?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] These things are already trillion dollar businesses that no one in the public market is going to benefit from the growth of. They're going to get a little bump as these things go into the multi trillions. Fine. So great. You can get two to five X or something. That's great. Yeah, optimistically. And I'm just way more excited about the fact that every creative person I know, from every software engineer I've ever met to everybody in film and creativity are saying, Oh my God, I can make things that I couldn't make before. Amen. Well said, Dave. Well said. I mean, I think this is the thing, the story of the double arm Sam.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_03] People viewing Sam are saying hallelujah. I think Dave is exactly right. And that's the right direction to take the same, which is, look, here's the reality. The narrative of single AI company control universe, hundred trillion dollar companies are clearly wrong, right? [SPEAKER_03] It is more like bandwidth is a fine business commodity. The creativity, what you can build on top of it is wildly awesome. [SPEAKER_03] Right? Wildly awesome. [SPEAKER_03] It's a new medium. It's literally a new medium.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] Well, it unlocks. You know, we're doing next week. In fact, you guys, if you want to join, you can. [SPEAKER_00] We're doing, we're starting to do bot summits specifically for creators that we've backed. Right? Because our thing is that you think about all these creators, the most excited people I've talked to in my universe about all the bots who are doing the most interesting stuff with them are these solopreneurs to people with big audiences who have historically been hyper blocked because it's super hard to find the right developer to work with. And now they're saying, oh my God, I can just do this stuff.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] And so you don't have the implications of the rise of the solo creator, the Jonathan Katz Moses of the world. That's where it changes things. Now there's also the macro of it, that might be bad for the economy in certain ways, [SPEAKER_01] but Jonathan Katz Moses is going to crush us with this stuff. You know, these people who are effectively blocked on pushing code around are now fully unlocked and there's going to be wildly good stuff from them. [SPEAKER_01] It's just hard when you're talking at a hundred thousand vertical feet to talk about how that manifests because most people aren't that.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] I just think it's so cool. When you look back at the indie movements that have happened throughout media over the last many decades, it's when camcorders got cheap, the film industry started using them and doing really interesting things.

SPEAKER_00

When the iPhone came along, we got the influencer movement, right? [SPEAKER_01] This new movement, this new medium is going to cause really interesting things. Interesting, but not necessarily. It's interesting when you think about the economic impact. I would tell you the camcorder didn't really do anything. [SPEAKER_01] I don't know, the entire nineties media business was enormous.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_03] That gave way to the internet, which gave way to what we currently have, the influencer business, which you have an entire fund built on top of, right? People are going to have entire infrastructures built on top of agents. [SPEAKER_03] Yes. [SPEAKER_03] It's just relatively small.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] I don't agree. [SPEAKER_01] I don't agree with that. [SPEAKER_03] I was walking down the street last night in front of Facebook's original building where I worked for many years of my life. And I was thinking, the last time I was talking about developers, I was having coffee with Jessica at Koopa, and we were talking about profiles and now it's like we're talking about agents, right? [SPEAKER_00] It's like, this is the new medium and it's going to be insane. [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. [SPEAKER_00] I mean, you look at Pulsia from last week, which took everyone. [SPEAKER_00] It's crazy. [SPEAKER_00] What is Pulsia?

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] Britt, you and your... [SPEAKER_00] It's crazy. [SPEAKER_00] Okay. What is it? [SPEAKER_00] What? [SPEAKER_00] What is Pulsia? [SPEAKER_00] This is one of our companies. [SPEAKER_00] I don't know Pulsia. [SPEAKER_00] Pulsia. [SPEAKER_00] What?

SPEAKER_00

Pulsia.com slash live. This was all the rage over the last week in VC land, at least. Did you get paid a thousand bucks for that? It's crazy. What is Pulsia? Britt, you and your... It's crazy. Okay. [SPEAKER_02] What is it? [SPEAKER_02] This is... What? What is Pulsia? This is one of our companies. I don't know Pulsia. Pulsia. What? Pulsia.com slash live. This was all the rage over the last week in VC land, at least.

SPEAKER_00

Did you get paid a thousand bucks for that? There are many internets. No, we don't need to. We're huge investors. 100 to 200% week over week. [SPEAKER_02] It's run by one person and it has now 4,000 active companies in the last... [SPEAKER_02] What does it do? [SPEAKER_02] ...that are being built. [SPEAKER_02] It builds companies for you. [SPEAKER_02] It's taking... Oh, I see. Jess, you could drop in a business idea and just run with something. And by the way, we have another company that does this called Autos, which Heinrich Röderland, which you might know, started with a... And that's...

SPEAKER_00

It's so awesome. Autos has an open claw skill. It's amazing. Can't claw build me businesses? Why do I need these other things? No, this not only... You can do it with Autos.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] Not only creates your app, but then runs the whole company for you. [SPEAKER_00] It manages all your ad campaigns, all your marketing campaigns. [SPEAKER_00] It's doing bookkeeping, back office, legal, all the stuff it does. [SPEAKER_00] This is actually an important and slightly different topic than what we were just talking about, which is I think the power of the harness, right? [SPEAKER_00] There's this new concept that I build this harness around the LLM or around the AI tools in order to accomplish the thing that I want to accomplish.

SPEAKER_00

And this entrepreneur that we funded actually many years ago, he's been on this amazing journey.

SPEAKER_02

We should tell the story sometime, have him on the pod. But he's been building this incredible harness for the last year. And he actually built it to build a different company.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] But he actually figured out that the harness he was using to build the company was the thing that was the most valuable.

SPEAKER_02

And so he started giving it to other people and saying, hey, you can build your... And the harness is just software that controls LLM. It's a markdown file. It's a markdown file.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] Well, it depends on how complex it is.

SPEAKER_02

Sam, I think you would be impressed with the harness that Ben has built.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] I'm not saying I wouldn't be. [SPEAKER_02] I just think anything that software is so easy to replicate that it's extremely hard to imagine any of this stuff as defensible, right? [SPEAKER_02] That is the question. [SPEAKER_02] We'll see. [SPEAKER_02] He's building businesses. [SPEAKER_02] He's developing customer relationships. [SPEAKER_02] There's a real network effect at play. [SPEAKER_02] And the reason that it's growing on an exponential curve is because every person that signs up either generates a business idea or takes their current business and feeds it to it. [SPEAKER_03] And then it starts actually reaching out to people over email.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_03] It starts tweeting on your behalf. [SPEAKER_03] It starts giving you the next task to do. [SPEAKER_03] It comes up with research documents. [SPEAKER_03] It helps you do design. [SPEAKER_03] I totally get it. [SPEAKER_03] It does all the things. [SPEAKER_03] I don't. [SPEAKER_03] I'm unconvinced it's a business, but I get it.

SPEAKER_00

I also think... Well, it's just... I mean, first of all, there's...

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] I think it's great that people are doing that.

SPEAKER_00

But I just don't... [SPEAKER_02] You know, I think anything that is basically software or anything that's writing is fundamentally just going to be an undefensible business because it's too easy to replicate over and over and over and only gets easier.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] You have to... [SPEAKER_00] The only way to build businesses is with dark pools or with... [SPEAKER_00] Basically, you need to have data.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] What's a dark pool? [SPEAKER_00] Can you tell the people what a dark pool is?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_03] Well, that's what you've been talking about, Dave, right? [SPEAKER_03] Dark factory. [SPEAKER_03] No, I've been talking about dark factory. [SPEAKER_03] Oh my God. [SPEAKER_03] Because harnesses, dark pools, and dark factories. [SPEAKER_01] This is teeing me up so well for my topic later in the pod. [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, Britt's down some really dark pools of the internet right now. [SPEAKER_01] Here's my thing. [SPEAKER_01] I've talked to a bunch of companies recently. [SPEAKER_01] I've been thinking about a bunch of this from a bunch of different angles.

SPEAKER_01

I actually think one of the things that LLMs and this era will do is going to be the death of the open marketplace, right? Because you can't make any money in an open marketplace. [SPEAKER_02] It's too efficient, right? So the thing that people miss about capitalism is that when anything's open, it ultimately collapses margins to zero. That's how capitalism works, right? So it's in the public markets. You can't win against the people who are algorithmically trading super fast in the public markets, right? [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, the singularity happened on Wall Street 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_01

If you think about it in our world, in the venture world, the public market is all the random ass companies in YC or things that everyone knows about.

SPEAKER_00

You can't make any money on those.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] Everything on Twitter.

SPEAKER_00

You can't make any money on those. [SPEAKER_02] And the reason you can't make any money on those is because with open access, someone will always overbid or overprice.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] There's no...

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] It just doesn't work, right? [SPEAKER_00] So it turns out that when markets get too efficient, they're bad businesses. [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, the singularity happened on Wall Street like 20 years ago. [SPEAKER_01] On... [SPEAKER_01] If you think about it in our world, in the venture world, the public market is all the random companies in YC or things that everyone knows about.

SPEAKER_00

You can't make any money on those. Everything on Twitter.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] You can't make any money on those.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] And the reason you can't make any money on those is because with open access, someone will always overbid or overprice. [SPEAKER_00] There's no... [SPEAKER_00] It just doesn't work, right? [SPEAKER_00] So it turns out that when markets get too efficient, they're bad businesses.

SPEAKER_00

And technology and AI makes markets efficient. The only way to have a good business, right? The only way to do a good venture deal is to have proprietary deal flow, right? [SPEAKER_01] You need a dark pool of deals that no one else knows about or a dark pool of founders that no one else knows about or access that no one else has that's sustainable and ideally compounds, right?

SPEAKER_00

And I think we're going to see this in a lot of things where the internet was all about bringing liquidity to marketplaces saying, okay, there's this inefficient market and we're going to make it more efficient and make money on it by effectively aggregating supply and demand, and hosting the market. I think that goes to zero value because it's too efficient. And everything becomes in a company building sense about forget the software, forget the market story. It's all about, can you own and control dark pools of value effectively and then monetize them consistently?

SPEAKER_00

What if it's dark pools everywhere because everyone's talking to the same AIs and so it's leading them all to the same place.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] And so the number of dark pools is actually increasing. [SPEAKER_00] Well, I think this is the whole thing with how the world is becoming more aristocratic and openness is collapsing.

SPEAKER_00

And we're all going into our little chat message threads that are private for all real information. This is what is happening in a lot of places. [SPEAKER_01] It's really bad. [SPEAKER_01] It creates social stuff. [SPEAKER_01] Dark pools are not about openness and efficiency and access and mobility. [SPEAKER_01] Dark pools are very medieval, right? [SPEAKER_01] That's what I would say, but I think it's where we're attending. [SPEAKER_01] Also, this is my concern. I think it's great that you can have a product, find an audience and get a revenue stream all with bots.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] But I don't want to be teaching the entrepreneurs of tomorrow that relationships don't matter and other in-person human skills in part because how do you find those dark pools and those edges? [SPEAKER_01] Relationships are a big part of that. That's my point, Jess, is that it's all relationships in the future. Actually, the irony is the people who are building the bot businesses, those are all going to zero, right?

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_03] Because the market will make them efficient. [SPEAKER_03] Oh, man, this is such a pessimistic take. [SPEAKER_01] It's not pessimistic. [SPEAKER_01] If you believe the narrative, which I don't believe, that AI is going to rid everyone of their jobs and we're going to have this mass social unrest. [SPEAKER_01] If you believe that, then something has to teach entrepreneurship, solopreneurship to everyone so that they can actually go and do something that gives them meaning, purpose, work, as their own little small business.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_03] And thus far, the tools that the internet has provided for this haven't been that efficient or good. [SPEAKER_03] You can go on YouTube and learn about it. [SPEAKER_03] It's really hard.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_03] It doesn't teach you through the practice of it.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] Dave, no one's doubting that it solves an interesting opportunity, but it's Substack, right? [SPEAKER_03] And how many professional journalists went to Substack thinking they were going to become, they were going to build amazing businesses and then realized, no, it was cool. [SPEAKER_03] It was creative. [SPEAKER_01] Maybe there's some revenue attached. [SPEAKER_03] Maybe the entity as a whole has some value at the platform level. [SPEAKER_03] But maybe it got you started. [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. [SPEAKER_03] It'll happen for some people. [SPEAKER_03] But the number of Substackers who have actually built full-time revenue streams for themselves is...

SPEAKER_00

Would you say that about Shopify? I mean, Shopify was the same thing, right? Toby started that thing to try to sell his own snowboard stuff, right? [SPEAKER_03] And then gave it to everybody else. [SPEAKER_03] I'm glad these businesses exist in the world. [SPEAKER_02] I'm glad they exist in the world. [SPEAKER_03] But you're not going to build the next OpenAI off one of these, in my opinion. [SPEAKER_03] Do you need to, though?

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_03] I guess that was my point from the prior comment, which is we need a Cambrian explosion of Shopify's and Substack's on top of OpenAI next. [SPEAKER_03] I don't think that's going to... [SPEAKER_03] I mean, my personal view is this is the real conundrum. [SPEAKER_03] Dave, what you're describing, I love entrepreneurs too. [SPEAKER_03] I obviously back them. [SPEAKER_01] I think they're great. [SPEAKER_01] Let's pretend. [SPEAKER_01] I am not worried about the top 1% of anything, of intelligence, of drive, whatever. [SPEAKER_03] They're going to do fine.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_03] They're going to figure out how to build cool businesses and things on top of platforms will make it easier and more efficient for them, whatever. [SPEAKER_03] I think the question is what happens to the P50, P75 people, right? [SPEAKER_03] You're smart. [SPEAKER_03] You're not the smartest. [SPEAKER_03] You're driven. [SPEAKER_01] You're not the most driven. [SPEAKER_01] There's like, that's most people by definition. [SPEAKER_01] And the problem is, if all of a sudden I don't need anyone to build my super good idea, I can just do it on my own, which is super fun for me.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] Then the problem is, it creates this dynamic where I actually do think it's a real problem. [SPEAKER_01] It basically says that if you are exceptional, you're going to do great. [SPEAKER_01] And so the question is, your only option is either to try to create an economy where everyone is exceptional at something.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_01] And therefore everyone can be in the top 1% of what they're doing, which I think is extremely difficult to do.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_01] And the problem is, if all of a sudden I don't need anyone to build my super good idea, I can just do it on my own, which is super fun for me. Then the problem is that it creates this dynamic where I actually do think it's a real problem. It basically says that if you are exceptional, you're going to do great. And so the question is, your only option is either to try to create an economy where everyone is exceptional at something. And therefore everyone can be in the top 1% of what they're doing, which I think is extremely difficult to do. Or you have this fundamental problem, which is you just need so many fewer people and so much less labor, both physical and mental to do anything that you don't take anyone along for the ride.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] I thought the point you were trying to make, Sam, was that all software is commoditized and Dave was reacting that it wasn't. [SPEAKER_01] And I think, to add on to what Dave was saying, of course, some software is going to be commoditized, but there are different pockets, dark pockets of the software industry that won't be. [SPEAKER_00] It's stuff that has real network effects, real proprietary data behind it. [SPEAKER_02] But it's going to be easier than ever to copy those. [SPEAKER_00] Right.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_01] I see one of these things doing these things and I tell Claude, no, not the human, not the human part. It's so hard to switch out of Instagram right now because your friend graph is located while you're following graph now. You're not going to build Instagram off one of these things. I'm just saying not all software is dead. Sam is saying all software is dead and I just disagree. [SPEAKER_01] Well, all is obvious. There's going to be exceptions, but I don't think it's. The point is there'll be network effects for sure. There'll be dark pools for sure. Software is totally commoditized.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] So the only thing you use software for is a lever to build the trust and a dark network or build the software as a lever into security or a brand or something that no one else can replicate. Like you cannot just write software that's valuable. It'd be hard to build Shopify today, Dave. [SPEAKER_00] I agree. Shopify is a valuable business. But I agree, but I guess you can't agree with me that what people build on top of this new intelligence medium is going to be wildly awesome. But then also say that you can't build anything valuable. Like, why not?

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] It can be awesome, but not valuable. I think the moats are harder. I think the business moats are harder. They're not impossible, but I think they're harder.

SPEAKER_00

I agree. They're harder. The other side of the coin to democratizing software, right? [SPEAKER_01] They're just harder. [SPEAKER_02] And I think they'll be based on things that aren't the software itself. And so it's really important for entrepreneurs who are starting these businesses to still be thinking about the comparative advantage that goes beyond the coding. I mean, our buddy Aditya Agarwal wrote a great op-ed in the Information and had a great interview on TITV about what it's like to be a very senior software engineer in the Valley, realizing that your life's calling has become as free as air, right? [SPEAKER_03] And he goes on and on about that.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] So to be continued, Brit, it's time for Brit Spot Corner. Take us there.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] Oh, God.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] Well, the Brit Spot Corner is just that I've been building a lot of things in the background. But what I do want to talk about, as I mentioned at the top of this pod, is the top 50 AI web products by Unique Monthly Visits came out. This is, I guess, now an annual thing. [SPEAKER_00] What's an AI web product versus a non-AI web product?

SPEAKER_00

What's an AI web product? I think it's just an excuse to make another list of 50. You just have to use AI in it. How many of these people are already in jail? It's the logical conclusion of all lists. All right. Two call outs that I will pull from this list because all the normal suspects are on there. Tell us about the dark corners, Brit. Well, the first one is not a dark corner. I do think it's interesting, though.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] Last year, there were like seven creator tools on this list. And now there are only three. And I think that's because Gemini, in particular, has started to really eat up the creator tools market. And as we talked about Anthropic going after developer, GPT going after mainstream. And I think Google's rise in creator tools with Nano Banana and everything else has been really exceptional this year.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_01] We haven't even talked about the fall of Cursor, which is the next. [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. That's a whole topic in and of itself. They keep leaking their revenue to convince people they're not dying. [SPEAKER_00] The second theme I pulled out from this list was there were three in the top 50 that I've never heard about that squarely fit in this weird adult entertainment AI category called Janitor AI, Spicy Chat, and Crush On. And I was, you've never heard of Janitor? [SPEAKER_00] I ran an op-ed from the founder of Janitor. Is it a marketplace for janitors? [SPEAKER_00] It's romance roleplay. It's romance roleplay. It's romance roleplay.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] Women want to date the janitor? [SPEAKER_00] But no, they're all anime. [SPEAKER_00] I'm so confused, Sam. I thought this was like TaskRabbit for janitors. [SPEAKER_00] I mean, God, I got to buy a mop. [SPEAKER_00] Yes. Literally just vacuum for Jess and you will have a great night tonight. [SPEAKER_00] Okay. The weird thing about all these, as I saw from their websites, they're all AI anime eroticism. And I'm not sure what's happening here and what the anime AI thing is all about. But I tried it because I had... I was just like anime cartoon-ish. Like the anime style. Men with eight packs that are anime, like Japanese men.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] Yeah, we know you picked the one with the eight pack. [SPEAKER_00] And one of them, you just... It's not even like a video. [SPEAKER_00] Literally just vacuum for Jess and you will have a great night tonight. [SPEAKER_00] Okay. [SPEAKER_00] The weird thing about all these, as I saw from their websites, they're all AI anime eroticism. [SPEAKER_00] And I'm not sure what's happening here and what the anime AI thing is all about.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] But I tried it because I had...

SPEAKER_01

I was just anime cartoon-ish. [SPEAKER_00] The anime style. [SPEAKER_00] Men with eight packs that are anime, Japanese men. [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, we know you picked the one with the eight pack. [SPEAKER_00] And one of them, you just...

SPEAKER_00

It's not even a video.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] You just chat with it. [SPEAKER_00] And it's your AI anime misogynist husband chatbot. [SPEAKER_00] And it's, this is what people pay for?

SPEAKER_00

And this is in the top 50? The question is why you picked that one. [SPEAKER_02] It was at the top of the list.

SPEAKER_02

It's research. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] Research. [SPEAKER_02] It's funny. [SPEAKER_02] I can't judge. Here's my thing. We know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] I have an OnlyFans account. You have to.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] It's research. [SPEAKER_01] Here's my thing, Brit. I think what you're actually talking about is an old theme of ours. Let's come back around, which was the whole pursuit of hyper realism with VR being the wrong way to think about this. [SPEAKER_01] Right. [SPEAKER_01] And so I think there's an era of technology that technologists were obsessed with, how do we pixel perfect recreate the real world? [SPEAKER_01] And that's what's valuable, right? [SPEAKER_01] The hyper realism. But actually the reality is the mind is the most powerful machine. [SPEAKER_01] Right. [SPEAKER_01] And what you're paying for is the prompting for imagination.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] You're not paying for hyper reality, if that makes sense. [SPEAKER_01] So I actually think if you think about what's going to happen in a lot of spaces in fantasy, hyper realism, I think is quite overvalued. [SPEAKER_02] This goes also for these AI generators that make these Instagram creator girls that are really hot and they're all over Instagram now. [SPEAKER_02] I'm sure. [SPEAKER_02] I don't know if you guys get those. [SPEAKER_02] Lo-fi, hi-fi. [SPEAKER_02] I don't know if you get those, but Instagram is full of fake girls. You don't get any fake bikini girls. It's half of my Instagram and they're all fake.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] I did get a Dakota Johnson Calvin Klein ad. [SPEAKER_02] So there's a ton of that stuff. [SPEAKER_01] But the thing is, you just fry your neurons out of it.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] And the reality of it doesn't matter. Right. [SPEAKER_02] That's not interesting to humans. [SPEAKER_02] The mind again is the important machine and all you're looking for with these AIs is which is why things like lo-fi cartoons or anime that's weird tentacle porn or whatever is. Oh my goodness. So these things exist, Jess.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] This is a thing. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, no, I know.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] I know it exists. [SPEAKER_02] Okay. [SPEAKER_02] Britt's going to wrap up her popcorn. I would like to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] Okay. [SPEAKER_01] I will say this to Sam.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] What percentage of the man's mind versus the woman's mind needs the light touch Reddit style, anime style porn?

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] Because I think women need the fuller picture, the story, the visualizations, the romance. [SPEAKER_00] And so I would imagine the real opportunity here.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] Wait, do you mean they need actual media or just the words? [SPEAKER_00] The words work. [SPEAKER_00] That's why the category is so big. [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. [SPEAKER_00] But the books don't have photos, right?

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] But they're very detailed. [SPEAKER_00] Very detailed.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] Okay.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] So I think this is very biological and extremely simple, right? [SPEAKER_00] Which is.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] I also think this is way beyond the purview of this podcast, but finish, Sam.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] And then I have a deal proposition for you. [SPEAKER_00] You don't like this topic? [SPEAKER_00] No, no. [SPEAKER_00] I like the topic as it relates to AI. [SPEAKER_00] I think now we're getting into gender stereotypes that I don't think are.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] I think it's very simple to understand biology, which is by design.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] Men that are very visually tuned and women are not visually tuned. [SPEAKER_00] They're tuned to other things because women can have one child at a time and have to seek safety and community to support children. [SPEAKER_00] And men can have many children at a time and are looking for sexual fitness. [SPEAKER_00] And so it's a very basic biology that leads you in different directions in terms of what all this stuff is. [SPEAKER_00] And brought to you by Charles Darwin.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_03] Yes.

SPEAKER_03

It's not complicated.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_03] That's just it's not even controversial. [SPEAKER_03] It's just.

SPEAKER_03

It's not controversial. It's just we're moving on.

SPEAKER_02

Here is my business proposition.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] Would you like to buy the tennis channel for roughly a billion dollars? [SPEAKER_02] Now hear me out. [SPEAKER_02] Tennis channel. The tennis channel is the way that you can watch every professional tennis match, except for the grand slams, all the time. Round the clock. Where do you find the tennis channel? [SPEAKER_00] You find the tennis channel through its app. [SPEAKER_00] It has an app.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] It's 60 bucks a year. [SPEAKER_00] I've never tried it. [SPEAKER_00] I always watch tennis on YouTube TV.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] The slams. [SPEAKER_00] ESPN has the slams. [SPEAKER_00] And now Turner has one as the French or something, but the tennis channel—tennis is a year round sport. [SPEAKER_00] You can watch professional tennis most of the time on the tennis channel. Plug for this year is Indian Wells. [SPEAKER_02] The youngsters are rising. [SPEAKER_01] So if you're not paying attention, this is a very consequential thing going on right now. [SPEAKER_01] But I think we should all ponder this business opportunity because tennis is growing and they've got all the rights except for the slams.

SPEAKER_01

So I think someone should buy the tennis channel. [SPEAKER_00] I always watch tennis on YouTube TV. [SPEAKER_00] The slams. [SPEAKER_00] ESPN has the slams. [SPEAKER_00] And now Turner has one as the French or something, but the tennis channel, tennis is a year round sport. [SPEAKER_02] You can watch professional tennis most of the time on the tennis channel plug for this year is Indian Wells. [SPEAKER_02] The youngsters are rising. So if you're not paying attention, this is a very consequential thing going on right now. But I think we should all ponder this business opportunity because tennis is growing and they've got all the rights except for the slams.

SPEAKER_01

So I think someone should buy the tennis channel. If anyone out there wants to, call me. [SPEAKER_02] Are you just buying it for the rights?

SPEAKER_02

No, it's for sale.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Oh, oh.

SPEAKER_02

No, but I'm saying why?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Obviously you're not buying the app and you're not buying the user base, right? [SPEAKER_02] So what are you buying?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] No, you're buying the rights. [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I also, I've been debating this with my tennis buddies and they pointed out that F1 had minuscule viewership 10 years ago and they just made it great and it boomed. [SPEAKER_02] So I think you'd have to make a bet on making the tennis viewing experience great.

SPEAKER_02

It's already pretty great, actually.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] Well, I'd say if you're going to do this, you should obviously call Ken Solomon before you do it.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Okay. [SPEAKER_02] Well, I should call a lot of people, but. [SPEAKER_03] Because he, that was his thing and he's a buddy and he's left, he's out. [SPEAKER_03] But I think we should ponder this. [SPEAKER_03] A billion's a lot. [SPEAKER_03] A billion's a lot. [SPEAKER_03] He knows a thing or two about it. [SPEAKER_03] But compared to buying the World Surf League or this, I think this is much better. [SPEAKER_02] To ask the obvious question, they're like, Jess, what do you actually—is it profitable? How much money do they make? [SPEAKER_03] There's a billion, a billion could be either very little or a lot depending on a bunch of key factors.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's profitable. [SPEAKER_03] Tennis channel for sale, profitable. [SPEAKER_03] I don't know. [SPEAKER_03] I'm going to go under on this. [SPEAKER_03] If you are a tennis, yes, it posted 73 million in earnings last year. [SPEAKER_03] So if you want to pay a billion dollars for 73 million in earnings. [SPEAKER_03] Like a 12X. [SPEAKER_03] No, I don't. [SPEAKER_03] No. [SPEAKER_03] I don't. [SPEAKER_01] Any debt on it? [SPEAKER_01] I don't, you're asking me too many questions, but this is what a real deal maker does. [SPEAKER_02] I haven't given it to Claude yet to do the diligence, but I think that was an interesting F1 comparison, right?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_03] Execution has turned many of these franchises into amazing things that they weren't today. [SPEAKER_02] I mean, because the viewership of non-Grand Slam tennis is not massive in the United States today. [SPEAKER_02] So I think that would be what you're betting on. [SPEAKER_02] ChatGPT says it would be a full price, maybe slightly high, but not in the same depending on strategic synergies. [SPEAKER_02] A full price. [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_03] Well, someone should do this.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_01] I'd be happy to advise. [SPEAKER_01] And everyone should be tuning in.

SPEAKER_01

It's the rise of, you know, Fonseca almost beat Sinner. Not really.

[SPEAKER_03] Two tie breaks. [SPEAKER_03] You've got Tiafoe. You've got Mickelson.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_03] It's a very exciting, very exciting next few days over at Indian Wells, which you can watch on the tennis channel for 60 bucks. [SPEAKER_03] But maybe that's the problem is it's charged more. [SPEAKER_02] Speaking of sports and getting into our pop culture corner to wrap up.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_03] Yes. [SPEAKER_01] Guys, Travis Kelsey is back for another season. [SPEAKER_03] Shocked. [SPEAKER_03] With the Chiefs. [SPEAKER_03] That means Taylor's back in the box. [SPEAKER_03] He referenced, you know, she still has the stamina to keep going. [SPEAKER_03] So I do too. [SPEAKER_03] I love it. [SPEAKER_01] I thought that.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_03] I didn't love that. [SPEAKER_03] It's a great story. [SPEAKER_03] You didn't love that. [SPEAKER_03] Chiefs need to get their act together next season. They're going to. They're going to.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] And then lastly, we've got the Oscars coming up this weekend.

SPEAKER_00

Have you seen any of the best picture nominees? [SPEAKER_02] Are you up to date on this? [SPEAKER_02] It's the one you've figured out. One of the only things I could care even less about than sports.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] The Oscars?

SPEAKER_00

No. Do you not watch movies? Give us one or two of the best picture. I'll tell you if I've seen them. I mean, the Leonardo DiCaprio one is going to win everything, right? What's Calci saying? Okay. Oppenheimer. Also very good. Killers of the Flower Moon is the one Dave's referring to. So good. Barbie is up there. I haven't seen Hamlet yet. Oh, everyone loves Hamlet, but it's very sad. I know. I need to watch Hamlet before Sunday. [SPEAKER_02] Killers of the Flower Moon is the dominant winner, likely, on Calci for best picture. Who will be best dressed? Does Calci have an opinion on that? Emma Stone will wear something great and win best actress.

SPEAKER_00

Who's Paul Thomas Anderson?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_00] Because he's got a lock on best director. [SPEAKER_00] Oh, I was going to say he's an actor, but he's not. [SPEAKER_00] He's a director.

SPEAKER_00

This is probably Hollywood's new business model is basically betting on the things they make. Brit, are you watching Love Story before we wrap? [SPEAKER_02] No. [SPEAKER_03] Should I be? [SPEAKER_03] What have you been doing all week? [SPEAKER_03] AI coding in bed? Emma Stone will wear something great and win best actress. Who's called Thomas Anderson? Because he's got a lock on best director. Oh, I was going to say he's an actor, but he's not.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] He's a director. [SPEAKER_00] This is probably Hollywood's new business model is betting on the things they make. [SPEAKER_00] Britt, are you watching Love Story before we wrap? [SPEAKER_00] You watching Love Story? No. [SPEAKER_03] Should I be? [SPEAKER_03] What?

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_03] What have you been doing all week? [SPEAKER_03] AI coding in bed? [SPEAKER_03] Well, you can do these. [SPEAKER_03] You can multitask.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_03] Oh, this is the JFK one. [SPEAKER_03] This is the Hulu. Yeah. [SPEAKER_03] Okay. [SPEAKER_03] I know. [SPEAKER_03] Well, apparently people are, she's really upset about, Carolyn Bissette is super upset about the facts that have not been painted correctly is what I heard on the Today Show. [SPEAKER_03] Is there an aviation theme to it? [SPEAKER_00] No, it's a love story, Sam. [SPEAKER_00] It's the clothing is excellent and I'm getting advertised. [SPEAKER_02] The clothing is excellent. [SPEAKER_02] The clothing is excellent. [SPEAKER_00] It is totally everyone's trying to dress.

SPEAKER_02

I wore a neutral today in honor. So in the future, I want your agent to tell my agent what you're watching and use my preferences on top of it to be like, Brit, out of the five things Jess has watched recently, these three are worth checking out. [SPEAKER_00] And I'll be like, great. [SPEAKER_00] But Brit, she died, by the way. [SPEAKER_00] So she's not on the Today Show because she died in a horrific plane crash, which is the whole point of the story. [SPEAKER_00] Here's a question. [SPEAKER_00] Okay. [SPEAKER_00] Are agents in Hollywood mad that we now call agents something that are machines?

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Are they sad their branding has been taken?

SPEAKER_02

I think they are.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] It's getting really.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] It's a good point. [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

[SPEAKER_02] Because it's pretty funny to hand someone a business card being like, I'm an agent, you know? [SPEAKER_02] It's a good point. [SPEAKER_02] I don't think the Hollywood people think enough about us to be the tech people. No, I think Hollywood thinks nothing but about us.

SPEAKER_02

Are you kidding? No, they hate us. No.

SPEAKER_01

All they do is think about technology all day long. [SPEAKER_02] If you called Ari right now, I mean, again, he would not be worried that he's known as an agent and that your bot is known as an agent. That would not register into whatever is going into his head.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_01] I mean, it's still Mars and Venus over here. [SPEAKER_01] Do you guys know about AVA, assistants versus agents? [SPEAKER_02] Do we need to? [SPEAKER_02] Okay. [SPEAKER_02] You should. [SPEAKER_02] Bring us to a close with this great insight. [SPEAKER_02] Well, that's the thing. [SPEAKER_02] If you care about Hollywood and Hollywood culture and what's going on in that, AVA, which is assistants versus agents, is the key account on Instagram. [SPEAKER_02] And they do a bunch of cool events and live events. [SPEAKER_02] Guy runs it. [SPEAKER_02] It's great.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] So I would, if you care about that and I'll tell you, those people think a lot about what's going on in the entertainment industry versus. All right. With that, I'm going to finish my glass of update. [SPEAKER_02] This can of non-caffeinated energy. So apparently, guys, if you want to be featured, you can either send us a $3 can of soda. I'll take your free stuff and Sam will take a thousand dollars. [SPEAKER_02] So that's your option. [SPEAKER_02] Send me a thousand bucks or send Jess a soda. [SPEAKER_02] I mean, if you send me clothing, I will wear it. [SPEAKER_02] My price is higher. [SPEAKER_02] What's your price? [SPEAKER_02] I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_00

I'm not sure. I got to think about it. [SPEAKER_02] Let's have an agent tell us what it should be. [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Which agent?

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_02] For what if we're that? [SPEAKER_02] My God. [SPEAKER_02] We're devolving and Sam, we have an appointment coming up. [SPEAKER_00] We have to address. [SPEAKER_02] So with that, another great week of More or Less. [SPEAKER_00] No, you're not.

SPEAKER_02

[SPEAKER_00] We're leaving in 10 minutes. [SPEAKER_00] What are you talking about? [SPEAKER_00] Perfect. [SPEAKER_00] That's perfect.

SPEAKER_03

[SPEAKER_00] It better be heated already. [SPEAKER_02] I'm not waiting. [SPEAKER_02] I started before the podcast. [SPEAKER_02] Thank you, dear listeners and viewers.

SPEAKER_00

[SPEAKER_02] We appreciate you. [SPEAKER_02] We would love a good follow. We'd love a good comment. [SPEAKER_02] And we will all be back here next week for another episode of More or Less. [SPEAKER_02] Bye. [SPEAKER_02] Bye. [SPEAKER_02] If you enjoyed this show, please leave us a virtual high five by rating it and reviewing it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. [SPEAKER_02] Find more information about each episode in the show notes and follow us on social media by searching for at More or Less, at Dave Morin, at Lesson, at Jay Lesson. [SPEAKER_02] And as for me, I'm at Britt.

SPEAKER_02

See you guys next time. is Indian Wells. The youngsters are rising.

SPEAKER_01

So if you're not paying attention, this is a very consequential thing going on right now. But I think we should all ponder this business opportunity because tennis is growing and they've got all the rights except for the slams. So I think someone should buy the tennis channel. If anyone out there wants to, call me.

SPEAKER_02

Are you just buying it for the rights? No, it's for sale. Oh, oh. No, but I'm saying why? Like, obviously you're not buying the app and you're not buying the user base, right? So like, what are you buying? No, you're buying the rights. I mean, I also, I've been debating, discussion this with my tennis buddies and they pointed out that like F1 had minuscule viewership 10 years ago and they just made it great and it boomed. So I think you'd have to make a bet on like making the tennis viewing experience great. It's already pretty great, actually. Well, I'd say if you're going to do this, you should obviously call Ken Solomon before you do it. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I should call a lot of people, but.

SPEAKER_03

Because he, that was his thing and he's a buddy and like he's left, he's out. But I think, I think we should ponder this. A billion's a lot. A billion's a lot. He knows a thing or two about it. But compared to buying the World Surf League or this, I think this is much better.

SPEAKER_02

To ask the obvious question, they're like, Jess, like, what do you actually, like, is it profitable?

SPEAKER_01

How much money do they make?

SPEAKER_03

There's a billion, a billion could be either very little or a lot depending on a bunch

SPEAKER_00

of key factors.

SPEAKER_03

I think it's profitable. Tennis channel for sale, profitable. I don't know. I'm going to go, I'm going to go under on this. If you are a tennis, yes, it posted 73 million in earnings last year. So if you want to, if you want to pay a billion dollars for 73 million in earnings. Like a 12X. No, I don't. No. I don't.

SPEAKER_01

Any debt on it? I don't, you're asking me too many questions, but this is what a real deal maker does.

SPEAKER_02

I haven't given it to Claude yet to do the diligence, but I think, I thought that was an interesting F1 comparison, right?

SPEAKER_03

Like, it's not great execution has turned many of these franchises into like amazing

SPEAKER_02

things that they weren't today. I mean, because the viewership of non-Grand Slam tennis is not massive in the United States

SPEAKER_01

today.

SPEAKER_02

So I think that would be kind of what you're betting on. ChatGBC says it would be a full price, maybe slightly high, but not in the same, just depending

SPEAKER_01

on strategic synergies.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, a full price.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Well, someone should do this.

SPEAKER_01

I'd be happy to advise. And, um, and everyone should be tuning in. It's the rise of, you know, Fonseca almost beat center. Not really.

SPEAKER_03

Two tie breaks. You've got TN. You've got Mickelson. It's a very exciting, very exciting next few days over at Indian Wells, which you can watch on the tennis channel for 60 bucks. So. But maybe that's the problem is it's charged more.

SPEAKER_02

Speaking of sports and getting into our pop culture corner to wrap up.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Guys, Travis Kelsey is back for another season.

SPEAKER_03

Shocked. With the Chiefs. That means Taylor's back in the box. He referenced, you know, she still has the stamina to keep going. So I do too. I love it.

SPEAKER_01

I thought that.

SPEAKER_03

I didn't love that. It's a great story. You didn't love that. Chiefs need to get their act together next season.

SPEAKER_00

They're going to. They're going to. And then lastly, we've got the Oscars coming up this weekend. So I have you seen any of the best picture nominees?

SPEAKER_02

Are you up to date on this? It's the one you've figured out.

SPEAKER_00

One of the only things I could care even less about than sports. The Oscars? No. Do you not watch movies? Give us a nit. One or two of the best picture. I'll tell you if I've seen them. I mean, the Leonardo DiCaprio one is going to win everything, right? What's Calci saying? Okay. Begonia. Also very good. One battle after another is the one Dave's referring to. So good. Marty's Supreme is up there. I haven't seen Hamnet yet. Oh, everyone loves Hamnet, but it's very sad. I know. I need to watch Hamnet before Sunday.

SPEAKER_02

One battle after another is the dominant winner, likely, on Calci for best player, for best.

SPEAKER_00

Who will be best dressed? Does Calci have an opinion on that? Emma Stone will wear, will wear, sorry, will wear something great and win best actress. Who's called Thomas Anderson? Because he's got a lock on best director. Oh, I was going to say he's an actor, but he's not. He's a director. This is probably Hollywood's new business model is basically betting on the things they make. Britt, are you watching Love Story before we wrap? You watching Love Story?

SPEAKER_02

No.

SPEAKER_03

Should I be? What? What have you been doing all week? Um, AI coding in bed? Well, you can do these. You can multitask. Oh, this is the JFK one. This is the Hulu.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. I know. Well, apparently people are, she's really upset about, Carolyn Bissette is like super upset about the facts, uh, that have not been painted correctly is what I heard on the Today Show. Is there an aviation theme to it?

SPEAKER_00

No, it's a love. It's a love story, Sam. It's, I mean, the clothing is excellent and I'm getting advertised like, like.

SPEAKER_02

The clothing is excellent. The clothing is excellent.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, it is totally like everyone's trying to dress.

SPEAKER_02

I wore a neutral today in honor. So in the future, I want your agent to tell my agent what you're watching and like use my preferences on top of it to be like, Brit, out of the five things Jess has watched recently, these three are worth checking out.

SPEAKER_00

And I'll be like, great. But Brit, she died, by the way. So she's not on the Today Show because she died in a horrific bone crash, which is the whole point of the story. Here's a question. Okay. Are agents in Hollywood mad that we now call agents something that are machines?

SPEAKER_02

Are they like sad their branding has been taken? I think they are. It's getting really.

SPEAKER_00

It's a good point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Because it's like pretty funny to hand someone a business card being like, I'm an agent, you know? It's a good point. I don't think the Hollywood people think enough about us to actually us being the tech people.

SPEAKER_01

No, I think the Hollywood just think nothing about nothing but about us.

SPEAKER_02

Are you kidding? No, they hate us. No.

SPEAKER_01

All they do is think about technology all day long.

SPEAKER_02

If you called Ari right now, I mean, again, he would not be worried that he's known as an

SPEAKER_01

agent and that your bot is known as an agent. That would not register into whatever is going into his head. I mean, I don't, I don't, it's still Mars and Venus over here. Do you guys know about AVA, assistance versus agents?

SPEAKER_02

Do we need to? Okay. You should. Bring us to a close with this great insight. Well, that's the thing. If you care about Hollywood and Hollywood culture and like what's going on in that, AVA, which is assistance versus agents is like the key account on Instagram. And they do a bunch of cool events and live events. Guy runs. It's great. So I would, uh, I, if you, if you care about that and I'll tell you, those people think a lot about what's going on in the entertainment industry versus.

SPEAKER_00

All right. With that, I'm going to finish my glass of update.

SPEAKER_02

This can of non-caffeinated energy.

SPEAKER_00

So apparently guys, if you want to be featured, you can either send us a, send us a $3 can of soda. I'll take your free stuff and Sam will take a thousand dollars.

SPEAKER_02

So that's your option. Send me a thousand bucks or send Jess a soda. I mean, if you send me clothing, I will wear it. My price is higher. What's your price? I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_00

I'm not sure. I got to think about it.

SPEAKER_02

Let's have an agent tell us what it should be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Which agent?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I, for what if we're that? Oh my God. We've, we're devolving and Sam, we have an appointment coming up.

SPEAKER_00

We have to, to address.

SPEAKER_02

So with that, another great week of More or Less.

No, you're not. We're leaving 10 minutes. What are you talking about? Perfect. That's perfect. It better be heated already. I'm not waiting. I started before the podcast. Thank you, dear listeners and viewers. We appreciate you. We would love a good follow.

SPEAKER_00

We'd love a good comment.

SPEAKER_02

And we will all be back here next week for another episode of More or Less. Bye. Bye. If you enjoyed this show, please leave us a virtual high five by rating it and reviewing

SPEAKER_00

it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

SPEAKER_02

Find more information about each episode in the show notes and follow us on social media by searching for at More or Less, at Dave Morin, at Lesson, at Jay Lesson. And as for me, I'm at Britt. See you guys next time.