Why half of product managers are in trouble | Nikhyl Singhal (Meta, Google)

The skills that used to be really valued in product managers are changing substantially.

It's going to be chaos. Our industry is very much under stress. Nothing's constant. Everyone's in a state of alert. If you talk to product leaders three years ago, their day was largely moving information. The information mover is essentially going to become a dinosaur. I just did this report on the job market. Interestingly, we have the most open PM roles globally in three-plus years. This is a complete renaissance for the product industry, but it comes with a lot of strings attached. In the next 12 to 24 months, we're going to see massive shedding of staff and then massive rehiring. You might see a company shed 30,000 and hire 8,000, but the 8,000 people are going to all be AI-first. The builders are going to have the time of their lives, but if you don't love building stuff, you're in trouble. What are some things that people should do to thrive in this future that is emerging? You have to find the ability to increase pace. You've got to find that reserve. The next two years require a lot of fire in the belly.

Today, my guest is Nikhil Singhal. Nikhil is, in my opinion, right now, the number one best source of career advice for product managers and for tech people in general. He was a longtime exec at Meta and at Google, CPO at Credit Karma. He's also a four-time founder, and he leads the best community out there for heads of product and chief product officers called the Skip community. He also has a larger community for tech professionals called the Skip Coach. Through these communities and his 30 years of building consumer products at scale, and also his podcast, which I recently partnered with, he is constantly gathering, meeting with, and speaking with top product leaders around the world about what's happening and what's changing in the lives of product managers and tech workers in general. And the answer is a lot. This is an episode that every single product person needs to listen to, and you won't find a more real-talk and actionable overview of what is going on and where things are heading in your career, and also what you should be doing about it right now. Seriously, do not miss this conversation.

Before we get into it, don't forget to check out LennysProductPass.com for an incredible set of deals available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Nikhil Singhal. Nikhil, thank you so much for being here. Welcome back to the podcast. Yeah, thank you, Lenny. I appreciate version two. All my notes were like, "Lenny version two." So I'm quite excited about being back on the show. You've done so well since the last time that I visited, and I appreciate the opportunity to share with you my current thing.

Yeah. So you were actually one of the launch episodes, one of the first 20 or 30 guests that I had on the podcast. This was two or three years ago, something like that. A lot has changed in the world of product management since then. We're going to be spending this entire episode talking about what is changing in the role and the career of a product manager.

What I especially love about talking to you and hearing your insights is you don't sugarcoat what's going on. You're very real about, "Here's what you need to know about what is going on." So we're going to be talking about the good and the bad, and just a lot of advice for product managers in particular. To kick things off, give us the big-picture view into what is changing for product managers, the good, and then maybe the scary stuff. Yeah. It'd be a lot shorter of an episode if we just talked about what didn't change. Wow. That says a lot.

Maybe I'll start with this. I think that when we first chatted, it was maybe the end of COVID. I think the ZIRP era, as we called it, zero-interest free money from investors, was just cresting. We talked about how ICs are now more in demand. We talked about how these first rounds of layoffs are resisting that. Ex-growth companies are going to be a struggle. But if you really talk to product leaders that were in that mode maybe three years ago, they weren't very happy. What I mean by that is their day was largely a day of moving information from one person to another. Let me frame the way that my team is presenting the information to my boss so that that person can frame it to their boss's boss. Generally, the function had become extremely focused on responsibility without authority. And that is the greatest form of workplace stress.

Now, we don't talk about that. We talk about all the stresses that we have today. Boy, AI is going to replace our function, et cetera, et cetera. But the honest truth is, if you think back, if you've been in product for a handful of years, that was a tough time. People were being paid well. Layoffs were just starting. The industry was huge. It was the biggest it had ever been. There were more product managers, more CPOs than had ever existed in history.

What's changed is people are having fun again, particularly product folks, because they're able to build. They don't have to rely on as many people to have impact. There's much more of a direct connection to their ideas and their ability to test and connect their product instincts to their customers. So, in many ways, this is a complete renaissance for the product industry. For a lot of the strongest builders in the group that I'm associated with, compensation is at an all-time high. They have more offers than they've ever seen. They see their next job maybe being a founder, maybe being a CEO, maybe being in another function other than product but being at the C-level. They're feeling like there are more opportunities than ever before. So that's the good.

I would say, in all honesty, it comes with a lot of strings attached. I think that it starts with just being exhausted. I've never seen an industry that's more tired than it is now. I think we were tired during COVID, but for different reasons. Now, nothing's constant. Once you figure out how to do your job, in the past you would be fine for a decade until you became a manager. Then you would be fine until you became an executive. Now, if you don't stay up to date, in the next three months they'll be like, "Oh, you're doing that thing that we stopped doing three months ago. We don't do that anymore. Oh, PRDs? That's not even a..." Everything feels like everyone's in a state of alert.

In addition, now you're hearing tens of thousands of people are being shed by larger employers that are also hiring and paying triple wages. That's mind-boggling. Depending on your perspective, you might be on one side or the other. I think that particularly a lot of the mid-career people, people that are in their thirties, life plays this cruel trick on you where you end up having your best, most energetic years of your career, your power years of career, because you finally have figured out what you're doing. But at the same time, you may be settling down, you may have kids, your parents are aging, and you, for the first time, have those aches and pains in your body. You have to think about diet. You can't eat cookies every day. You have to exercise. So between your health, the family and friends that you hardly ever see, your parents, which are now worrying you because you have to build a different relationship with them, they're becoming dependents, your actual dependents with your kids, and then, by the way, your work, which will take whatever time you have, but also changes all the time, that generation is insanely stressed historically. And now we're like, "Hey, stay up. What's the latest in cloud code? They changed it this morning." It's dizzying. So I think there's joy, but there's fatigue in a way that I haven't quite seen before.

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So you talk to, I don't know, hundreds of product leaders regularly, run these communities for CPOs and senior product leaders. I guess on balance, are people doing better than the last two or three years ago? Or is it just, oh man, everyone's burning out and in big trouble? I think that how people would describe it and how I describe it is slightly different. I tend to be more around when people are doing better, I think they have more choice and are, in the long term, going to be happier. From that perspective, I think people that are at the top of their game are doing much better for the reasons I mentioned. They're just more interested in their jobs.

I think that they're more stressed, but I think they're stressed because they wish they had more time to feed the yellow lamb at night, which is a different form of stress than the stress that they experienced in the past, which is, I don't know if my point or my team is going to get through the malaise of decisioning that exists here. So I think that people are doing better.

However, I think our industry is very much in stress. I think that, on average, people, even if they're doing well, feel more stressed because they worry they're either not keeping up or they worry that this industry is going to change and, essentially, they'll be roadkill along the way. And so that has a lot to do with people not generally being that arrogant, and they don't always believe that everything's going to work itself out. And there's a lot of evidence that things are changing, and so change is hard on humans. And so I think that there's a combination of both, but I think the best people tend to be feeling great right now.

We're going to talk about, of the people that are doing best, what they are doing differently. But before we get there, let's think about the future of where things are heading. You talked about a bunch of the things that have already changed and how different the world of product management is. What do you think will change further in the next couple of years to give people a sense of where things are heading?

Yeah. I had this meetup last Thursday, and it was a fun meetup. I have a group of about 125 heads of product, and we tend to gather once a month in San Francisco. During this meetup, we took an approach where lots of people were building things for their own companies or on their own to help themselves with productivity. And so we said, hey, why don't we do a show and tell? Why don't we just have you, if you're a head of product, show things that are interesting, that are worth explaining.

And so we had a startup go up and show what they're doing. And then we had some midsize companies and some late-stage companies. And it was a few things that were really palpable. One was there was so much joy in the audience that people were like, oh, I've been building this thing, and let me show you. And everyone had their laptop, and they were one-upping each other. They were like, your chief of staff does that. My chief of staff does this thing.

So that builds on my point that people are having fun and being hands-on. But the second thing is that the way they talk about how product decisions are made, the way they talked about how prioritization is determined, the way they talked about how information moves within the company looked like a completely foreign human animal from anything that I had experienced when I was working a few years back.

And I got up on stage and I said, if you think about how we work right now and how you folks are all talking about using agents in your enterprise, how you're using chief of staff apps to essentially drive more productivity, how all of you are essentially spending all your time just focusing on judgment, and you're spending all your time taking anything that can be obsoleted and writing software around it, none of that was even in the language, even in the vernacular, 12 months ago.

So now what is it going to look like in 12 months? And everyone kind of had a pause, and they were like, yeah, it was impossible to anticipate what this conversation looked like 12 months ago. It's pretty hard to understand where things are going, but I would say I think maybe I'll answer your question around where things are going in the next couple of years based on how I think companies are going to change and how people are going to change.

So I think on the company side, and then maybe I'll slant it more towards product for a second, product leaders will increasingly get paid and be asked to drive judgment and then be the tip of the sphere on trying to essentially obsolete everything else through software, through AI, through agents. And this is partly why there's a lot of excitement, because just to be very honest with you, and you were a PM and I was a PM, most of the stuff that you didn't like doing are the things that AI is really taking a real crack at. And so I think that's super interesting.

I think that there's a ton of that change that's going to happen. Some companies are doing it now, some companies will do it, but within two years, I think most of these companies will obsolete all the mechanical parts of building product. I think that there will be 10 to 100 times more changes that will be presented to products than ever before, because now the cost of testing something, the cost of changing, is going to be much, much lower. And so when things are changing that rapidly, that judgment piece becomes pretty much paramount. Just to make sure we understand, when you say judgment, what should people be thinking of when you talk about judgment?

I think that it's evaluating whether the thing that we're changing is a good or bad thing. I think that it's also evaluating whether we should change the product in one way versus another. You can't build 100 custom versions of the same product. It affects your brand. It affects the maintainability, et cetera. So when customers are asking for things, when you're trying to think through how do you build something that's sustainable, differentiated, that's judgment. And evaluating whether it's successfully met that criteria and whether it's worth building and worth releasing.

It's almost like the systems skill that's existed from the beginning of the internet. It's, hey, it's not about the feature. It's around the system that we're putting together, the platform, if you will, that's enabling capability. Right? So that's the judgment of, boy, there's all these changes coming in. They're going to happen more frequently.

As an aside, because of all these changes, I think that in two years, there won't be any more bad software. This is maybe more of a wish and a dream than a prediction, but I think that if you count in the week in your given week how much bad software you come back with, I have a house and it has like 15 different apps that run to control everything from the shades to the air conditioner to the garage door, and almost every one of those apps are horrible. They don't work particularly well. They never get monitored. Things break, and no one ever checks it. All that stuff's going to get fixed because someone's going to basically sit down and tell Claude to fix it, and it's just going to fix it.

As an aside, because of all these changes, I think that in two years, I think there won't be any more bad software. This is maybe more of a wish and a dream than a prediction, but I think that if you count in your given week how much bad software you come back with, right. I have a house, and it has 15 different apps that run to control everything from the shades to the air conditioner to the garage door, and almost every one of those apps are awful. They don't work particularly well. They never get monitored. Things break, and no one ever checks it. All that stuff is going to get fixed because someone's going to sit down and tell Claude to fix it. And it's just going to fix it. And it's going to fix it. It's going to be more secure. So I think that that's changing. And so people will have a lot less tolerance for bad software.

Along those lines, just real quick, a quick aside to your aside. The prompt I constantly find myself using with Codex and Claude is just, how can we make the product experience better? How can we make this better? And you just ask that, and it's like, here's 10 ways we can make it better. And so it's like, wow, these are really good ideas. And then, cool. Do the first seven.

Exactly. There's going to be some super skill that's going to run against every piece of software that's in the app store. And it's going to go in, and it's going to fix them all. And then they're going to get released. They're going to be like, wow, that is just a significantly more consistent, better, less buggy experience and more maintainable. And so that's why there's a lot of optimism, right? Because these changes can be done pretty automatically.

Yeah. It's easy to finish that loop real quick. So many of these apps are built by engineers that are not the best engineers. They're engineers that companies hire that don't really care about their software. They're just like, this is just a side thing, building this app. We just need to build an app. Let's find someone to build it. They're not product-first companies. And now all of these companies have access to the most skilled software engineer, Claude Code, Codex, and all these other tools. So I totally see what you're saying. Everyone has the best engineers available now. And it's just English to ask them to build the better thing or build a better app. So that's a really interesting point.

It still boggles my mind. Everyone's like, oh, what's the cutting edge and all that. I think there's still, I don't know if this is true even today, but very recently there were more lines of COBOL than, I think, any other language out there, and mainframe sales continue to do pretty well. And they're an unusually large line item for companies like IBM. And part of the reason why these systems, I think I spent an hour and a half trying to get my MileagePlus account on United to work correctly with my daughter's phone and all this other stuff, partly because these systems are so complicated, but they're built on mainframes. Right. And a lot of the engineers, and this is going to sound morbid, but I think it's true, is a lot of engineers are dead. They literally passed away. They were written 10, 20 years ago, and going in and touching that code is probably the last thing anyone wants to do, so nobody goes in there. It's all that side. Now we can change that. So I'm very excited about what it means to go in and improve things that people take for granted, right? That's a big one. That's a bit of an insight.

I think that the other thing that I think is worth signaling is I think that the skills that you need to be effective in today's world are an acceleration of what we were talking about last episode. We were talking about ICs. We were talking about hands-on. We were talking about opinion. Even back then, before Claude and ChatGPT and others came out, I think what we're now seeing is companies are looking very, very carefully at their staffing, and they're asking themselves, one, do we need this many people? Did we overhire? And part of the reason is they're looking, hey, maybe we doubled our staff in the last five years. Lots of companies that are public have done that. Did we get twice as much from them? It was funny, when I was at Google, now over 10, 15 years ago, we used to ask ourselves, I was on an ancillary team. I wasn't in the search or the ads team. We used to ask ourselves how many people are really needed for Google to hit their numbers. And there were, at the time, 20, 30, 40,000 people. And if you ask someone who wasn't in tech, you're like, oh, probably 90% of those folks, obviously. And the answer is probably closer to 9%. Probably you need 500 people to keep the lights on and to build that business. You don't need 25, 30, 40,000 people. So there's a huge amount of overhead where companies hire, not just because they want to have bureaucrats, because they want to expand, they want to try new things. But I think that there's a judgment day that's come back where companies are like, look, we aren't getting as much for the staff that we grew in the last five years. And this AI thing requires a totally different skill set. The combination is going to mean this year, I predict in the next 12 to 24 months, we're going to see massive shedding of staffs and then massive rehiring. But you might see a company shed 30,000 and hire 8,000, but the 8,000 people they're going to hire are going to all be AI-first.

And the 30,000 they're going to let go of are going to be a combination of we didn't get as much from those folks as we needed, and we wanted to set the destination differently with a much lighter payload. And that's dark. That's going to make this year and the next two years pretty challenging. So I'll transition a little bit to my thoughts on people, but I'll pause for a second to see if this resonates with you.

That's scary to hear. We're going to talk about what folks listening can do to do their best to be in that second bucket of being rehired and kept, because there's a lot you can do. And there's a lot of people that know they need to change and adjust, and they're not doing anything. And now we want to talk about maybe some of the blockers there. One thing I'll note is I should have mentioned this earlier. I just did this report on the job market. And interestingly, as of today at least, we have the most open PM roles globally at tech companies in three-plus years. The last time it was this high was during COVID, basically. So there's some good news there, at least for the PM role. I don't know. Did that surprise you, Lenny?

Yeah, it did. Because there's always the sense that, why do we need PMs? What's the point? We have AI, just build stuff. And my sense, I've always been saying this, I feel like the PM skill is the most important, valuable skill of all the skills. And I know every role thinks this about their role. It's like, no, design matters more than anything now. But I feel like what you said, where it's deciding what to build, deciding if this is good and great and ready, and prioritizing, I feel like that's what remains. So to me, it makes sense.

The report came out at a fortuitous time because it was right before I was preparing to come on the show. And the three points I was going to make are, builders are going to have the time of their lives, comp's actually up, and the Bay Area is essentially back in favor. And I think those three things came very much loud and clear in your report.

skill is the most important, valuable skill of all the skills. And I know every role thinks this about their role. It's like, no, design, we sign more than anything now. But I feel like what you said, where it's the deciding what to build, deciding if this is good and great and ready, and prioritizing, I feel like that's what remains. So to me, it makes sense.

We report came out in a fortuitous time because it was right before I was preparing to come on the show. And there are the three points I was going to make is, builders are going to have the time of their lives. Comp's actually up, and the Bay Area is essentially back in favor. And I think those three things came very much loud and clear in your report.

And I think your question around, hey, why are product managers doing so well? Why are there so many jobs when, in reality, a lot of product people that all of us know are struggling to find a role, or we're hearing about these layoffs? I think it depends on how you define what a product manager is. And I think that, for the first time, we did have a dramatic shift in what's defined. We three years ago talked about, hey, product managers, there's lots of archetypes. Some archetypes are actually more in favor. This was the IC conversation, the builder conversation. Now what we're essentially saying is the information mover is essentially going to become a dinosaur. And I think about half of the product people that grew into the industry have that skill and superpower. And then there were a set of people who got into product because they like to build stuff, folks like yourself who were founder, who that was the motivation in joining the industry. And then they found themselves in this thing called product management. Those folks are builders, and those people are the ones that are being hired by your survey. I think those product managers, everybody wants a builder. And I think that, interestingly, lots of engineers are builders, lots of designers are builders, lots of marketing folks are builders. And I think builders wanted is going to be the big tagline for the next couple of years.

And it is so fun to build. I'll bet you, and this is a prediction, that if you had to choose between preparing a podcast and sitting in codex or sitting in cloud code and working on your laptop, you would prefer the latter. It is so fun. Yeah, just progress. You just make so much fun. It's like, look at this thing go. It's getting better. It's getting better.

When I was a PM, I used to take a break and go change the light bulbs in the house. And the reason why I would change the light bulbs is that light bulb was broken, but then I replaced it and the light came on, and man, was that satisfying, because in a product job, there are very few days of satisfaction because you don't really have the ability to see something broken that gets fixed. It's just part of the challenge in having responsibility without authority until now. Now you can participate in the joy. You can create a design. You don't have to wait for the designer and convince the designer to go and actually work through this or to put your stuff on a backlog. You don't have to do that. And so I think that the builders are going to have the time of their lives. And I think they're going to be very focused on judgment. I think that they're going to invade other functions.

I think there's going to be, when I started the group five years ago, we had, for the first two to three years until we got to about 60, 70 people in this community of head of products, we had one founder. In the last 12 months, as we've gone to about 125, we have 14 founders. Fourteen people essentially have decided that their next job was not to take another product executive role, but to found. Founding CEO is now open to us. I have one person, a very senior person in my group, who interviewed for a CHRO position because they wanted a product manager background for the CHRO position. What is CHRO? That's the chief HR person in the company, right? So you would never think that an HR person would be a former product manager, but now forward-leaning companies are starting to say, hey, we need someone who can bring this obsolescence skill, this judgment skill, this empowerment skill, this builder skill to the function. In fact, the function might be easier to learn than the other parts of the job.

And we're seeing that trend, that product builders are going to have both a broader range of opportunities, companies up and down the stack, and it won't be product managers, and engineers can become product leaders and product builders. And all of this blurring of the lines is going to take place.

I think that, unfortunately, the flip side has to be mentioned. I think that non-builders, and I think that anyone who sees themselves as not loving sitting down and building something, and there may be reasons why, we'll get into why you may not be in a position to find the time, let's say, but if you're not a builder, if you're like, look, my skill was never to, I'm not really into tech. People say this all the time. I'm not really into tech. I just really found it to be a lucrative job. It's a role where my ability to communicate, my ability to move information was where I ended up enjoying it. I love team building, those kinds of notes, which, by the way, I love all those things. But if you don't love building stuff, you're in trouble. And I mentioned about half the people are in that camp. So we're going to have that challenge where they're going to have to perhaps leave the tech industry. They might have to, it might be that they want to go build a new business outside tech but use some of these AI tools, or maybe they want to find a job completely foreign to tech. But I think that this non-builder piece is a mirror image of the builder growth, that story that we're seeing.

There's so many directions we can go here. One thing I want to throw out, it's a hot take, and this came from a chat I just had with a head of growth at Anthropic. So he's a head of growth, he's a PM. And he had this really interesting point, that as engineers can do so much more, PMs are getting squeezed because they have to stay on top of so many things, so many features, so many ideas, so much doc, so many things being set to them. And there's this push for PMs at companies to ship, build stuff themselves. And what we took away from that chat is the leverage that PMs often have is a lot higher not spending time coding and shipping, but instead just staying on top of all this stuff. And he's like, we need more PMs now. There's so much for PMs to do because engineers are so fast. So there's still need for prototyping to explore ideas and ideate and get feedback and align. But he had an interesting take, that I don't want to be like, it's better I don't spend time shipping stuff. It's better I do higher leverage work as a PM.

It depends what he means by shipping stuff. Because I think that if you have an engineering team of 50 people building things for your customers and you're like, hey, I want to be the 51st because that's how I get leverage, I'm like, eh, it's kind of a cheap knockoff of an engineer. If, on the other hand, the thing that you're building is ways to stay on top of what the 50 people are doing, when in the past that was building tickets and backlogs and all of the things that we used to do to figure out organizations, manage standups, that's the information overload that's happening. What we saw when the CPOs got together is all of the things they're building are ways to drive efficiency out of their product organizations. They're inside-the-building kind of development efforts. And I'm not sure that for the next five years we'll continue to build software that way, but I think in the next two years, people are going to change the product operating system that they're working on. And we're already seeing companies that stand up and they say, hey, we've fully automated the way we do product reviews. We fully automated the way we do product standup. So to his point, look, if there's 15, 10 times the amount of stuff happening, we need judgment to determine whether it's good. These are good or bad changes. And right now, if it's

used to do to figure out organizations, manage standups, that's the information overload that's happening. What we saw when the CPOs got together is all of the things they're building are ways to drive efficiency out of their product organizations. They're inside-the-building development efforts. And I'm not sure that for the next five years, we'll continue to build software that way. But I think in the next two years, people are going to change the product operating system that they're working on. And we're already seeing companies that stand up and they say, Hey, we've fully automated the way we do product reviews. We fully automated the way we do product

standup. So to his point, look, if there's 15, 10 times the amount of stuff happening, we need judgment to determine whether it's good. These are good or bad changes. And right now, if it's manual, we're cooked. So it's a combination of hiring good product builders with judgment and then hiring increasingly folks whose entire job is to build the internal tools necessary to improve the decisioning. But it's not through hiring of humans and building management ethos, which is what it used to be in Zurb. It's actually through technology, but it's a totally different way of building software.

And that's what gets people excited because they're like, wow, if I do this, I don't have to ever do a status report. That was a comment that was made. I hate doing status reports. So now I just wrote something and my boss is happier because they get more detail. And that, to me, is incredibly exciting, but it is a different direction of what you're trying to deliver than something that goes out the door. Jeff Lerner That is such a good distinction, and it makes all the sense. It's make yourself scale through software as much as possible. There's a big opportunity, and it's fun. It's like you're building your own thing.

Jeff Lerner That's right. That's right. I think a few other things that I would just note around how things are going to change the next couple of years: I think that adults are still going to be needed. I think companies are going to grow. They're going to grow quickly. I think those that are driving some of these initiatives are classic founders, and AI is great at supplementing a lot of things, but I think judgment comes in the form of a combination of expertise and wisdom. And so I think that increasingly I hear from my groups that, Hey, I'm attractive to this company because I have wisdom,

but I stay hands-on. I have credibility with the founder, so I can have a conversation with that individual in his or her language, but I have weight to my thinking. I have seen the movie. I have experience that actually would help them as they take this turn. So adults are still going to be important. I think pace will continue to go up partly because people will want to feed the beast, the LLMs that are running at night. And I think partly because there's just such an opportunity to keep moving so much faster. And I think that's going to be dizzying, and I'm not excited about what that causes for burnout. Sadly, I think that geography and actually diversity is going to

take a step back. I think that we were very good about driving more breadth. As we grew the industry, we started looking at people who were from different backgrounds to populate it, including different locations. But I think that because the AI wave is so heavily coming from the Bay Area, and because companies are hiring fewer folks, they're hiring people that look and act like themselves. So age, gender, ethnic backgrounds, all of those are taking a hit. And I think that we will have stepped back quite a number of years in the diversity of what we do. And so I worry. This is my personal worry, but I worry about that

probably more now than I did in the last five years because I think it's an underbelly of what we're seeing. And I don't think that anyone's intentionally doing anything, but I think when pace is so high, the fact is that women are having kids in those power years, and they just don't have the time to allot to spending their nights and weekends in cloud code. And so that's an impact. And we don't talk about it as an industry, but it's absolutely true. And then the last thing I would just say, and maybe this goes into some of the advice as well, is I think that one of the most surprising shifts we're seeing is your brands don't matter as

much as how modern you are in your ability to deliver product. In the past, I think for the last 10 years, it's like, have you seen the movie before? And I remember even in this last podcast episode we did, Lenny, we talked about, Hey, brands matter. You really need to make sure. Like personal brands. Yeah, personal brands. Hey, I've worked for this company. They've delivered products. They've been at scale. So then people are like, oh, that person certainly knows what they're doing. Right. And it's like, well, tell me about all the different experiences you've had. But now, if every way of building software and how we deliver product is completely alien to how it was

in the last 10 years, how you delivered in that sort of version one is going to be less and less relevant. So lots and lots of feedback that I'm hearing from interviews is like, put you in a scenario. What tools do you use? What's your judgment? How do you think? It's not about five years ago, you shipped this thing. What was your thinking that went into it? And so how modern you are now becomes the career advice, not did you pick up the established brands? Because what if the established brand is very much working in a way that's not current? You work there for six years, you come out, and it feels like you're in a totally different world,

right? So that's why I think the next two years and these changes are so profound and, quite frankly, confusing to people. That is such an interesting insight that the logo used to be fancy, to have all these logos on your resume. And now you're saying sometimes that may hurt you because that company is not seen as a very AI-forward company. And second of all, people are looking for what have you actually done? Are you actually aware of what's going on? Well, I was just going to say some of those biggest brands, it's hard to even talk about what you've done. It's like, if you're working at Meta and you spent two years and I

managed to make this piece of this algorithm go a little faster, and by the way, it had a huge impact. And frankly, it was incredibly hard to navigate the hallways and to make that decision and to find incrementality. As someone who has worked there, I understand and respect that. And that is a promotable achievement, but it just falls very flat in a conversation where someone's living in the future and product is now totally different, right? So that distinction is the thing that I want to call out, that hey, that's happening every day right now. So what you're saying there, which is a really

powerful point, is that the skills that used to be really valued in product managers are changing pretty substantially. Yeah. And in fact, maybe almost flipped upside down in terms of importance. In some ways, we start our careers as builders, many of us, and then we get taught that leverage, scale, organizing, streamline, empowering, enabling, don't do the build yourself, get others to do it. Stop working on the car, work on the factory, right? That is the maturation of our industry. And then you find out that, well, what if it turns out the scale can be done very differently and all we care about is your opinion and what you build? That's very

jarring, and that's what we're living through right now. So let's follow this thread of specific advice to PMs right now, whether they're mid-career, senior, getting started. What are some specific things that you think people should do to do well in this emerging future? Change is really hard for us. And I think, as humans, we're not really designed to change very easily. If you think about it, I was thinking about why it's hard for us to change when, in some ways, change can lead us to much better outcomes. We're almost told to change less as we grow older. When you're a kid, you fall down a ton, but Lenny, what was the last time you fell down?

Not often, except my son loves to pretend like we're falling. So there's a

charring, and that's what we're living through right now. So let's follow this thread of specific advice to PMs right now, whether they're mid-career, senior, or getting started. What are some specific things that you think people should do to do well in this emerging future? Change is really hard for us. And I think, as humans, we're not really designed to change very easily. If you think about it, I was thinking about why it is hard for us to change when, in some ways, change can lead us to much better outcomes. We're almost told to change less as we grow older. When you're a kid, you fall down a ton, but Lenny, what was the last time you fell down?

Not often, except my son loves to pretend like we're falling. So there's a lot of pretend. And when you pretend-fall, it's probably pretty strong. It's probably relatively new. Yeah. For him, it's so fun. He loves it. But yeah, for me, it's such a long way down.

Yeah. And I think that it's funny because you watch kids, and it's normal for them to reinvent everything they do. Oh, I'm learning to crawl. Oh, now this walking thing, crawling, that's not for me. It's why kids learn languages so quickly, because they are not afraid to make mistakes, and they go through things much more rapidly. It's why you teach your kids to learn how to ski early, because, boy, I just made a decision. Hey, I've never been a skier, and I'm just too old to do it. I think that we are trained to find a happy medium and then make as few changes as possible. Find a partner, get settled down. You find a job, try to stay. It's a failure to transition to a new job if you can avoid it. That's our entire map model. And so we create, in some ways, a mental block around this idea of reinventing oneself.

When you are told to reinvent, when you are told to change, the first thing you think is, is it really necessary? Boy, it seems exhausting. I worked so hard to get here. Why would I need to do that? And I think, in the most inner psyche of some of us, it's that that just wasn't the deal. The deal was I did what I was supposed to, went to school, I worked hard, I got a job, I built a brand, I got to be a manager, I'm making the income, I have the partner, the family, all this stuff. You're telling me, after all this time, I got to start over. It sounds fun. You read Twitter and you're like, wow, all these people are doing all this crazy stuff. But in the back of your mind, it's like, I just don't know why. Why did we get here? I don't want to do it. I want to go back to the world where I can just keep doing things. So I think this block is actually at the heart of the matter today. And it's a skill, reinvention, and it requires time. But time is so hard to find in your power years.

For the reasons we mentioned, with so many, your goal when you're in your power years is to equally disappoint everyone in your life, which sounds like a horrible statement, but it's true. You have six hours to give, eight hours to give, 12 hours to give, and you have 20 hours of demand. What is your prioritization mechanism? I am going to equally disappoint everyone, not disappoint one group. My parents will not be more disappointed than my kids, than my health and my family, than my friends and my partner, than my work, than my retirement account. That's essentially what your mindset is. I need to equally disappoint everyone. Now you're telling me that the number one thing is to reinvent when I'm barely able to manage this disappointment algorithm. It's quite dark, but I think that there's the setup.

And then the worst part is these two other psychological factors. One is, okay, fine. I'll take a week off and I'll go figure out what people are doing and what the latest is. And then it turns out, three months later, that week off is now antiquated. You got to keep doing it because the target keeps changing. It's not like I went from not having a job to having a new job, and then I kind of grinned and got through it, and now I'm back in flow. It's like I'm never in flow, because I got to keep doing this over and over and over again. And the most surprising observation I made is that the ones that were the best at working in the past, the ones that mastered the old game, find it the hardest to go through this reinvention stage. It's this shadow superpower thing that I talk about. The better you are at mastering one system, the less likely you are to recognize the new one, because your entire world is like, this is working for me. And so the weaker you are, the more excited you are about changing. Hey, what I'm doing isn't working. Might as well change it. But if you're really good, you have no incentive to change. And perhaps even your employer sees you're doing great, and the company itself is in this moment.

So all of these things, whether it's the shadow, whether it's the exhaustion, whether it's the time, whether it's the fact that the target's moving, create this reluctance to reinvent. But the number one piece of advice, to answer your question, is you have to have the courage. You have to believe you have to have the power to essentially say, look, I know the way we work is changing, and I need to stay moderate. I need to stay current. So I am going to cross that mental threshold, and I'm going to prioritize that above all else. That crossing the threshold is the key. And I'll talk a little bit about how one does that. But I think that, if there was one thing to take away from today's discussion, it is that every person listening to this podcast needs to find it in themselves to cross the threshold around embracing reinvention. That is the world that we live in now.

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What I think about as you talk about this is, I don't know if you saw this, they asked all the heads of the AI labs, like Demis and Sam Altman and Daria, okay, if everybody agreed to slow down and stop this stuff, would you do it? And they all said, yep.

Which says a lot about how they're all freaked out a bit about how fast everything's going, how much is changing. And then there's the reality of, but that is not going to happen, because the game theory of it all is it doesn't work. You can't slow down because no one will actually slow down. Whoever doesn't has a huge advantage. And so I think it's a big part of this insight. This is happening, and there's nothing you can do to slow it down or stop it. And you can either try to pretend like it's no big deal and it's going to be all right, or you can, as you said, get over this hump of, okay, I need to lean into this and see what I can do.

Well, and maybe there's a baby version of this that perhaps provides a bit more solace and optimism. A baby version of this is that the way that people did, let's call it product management back in the day, when HP and Cisco and AMD and these other companies built products that were physical hardware, they had long engineering cycles. There is a discipline called

slow down. Whoever doesn't has a huge advantage. And so I think it's just a big part of this insight is just, this is happening and there's nothing you can do to slow it down or stop it. And you can either try to pretend it's no big deal and it's going to be all right, or you can, as you said, get over this hump of just, okay, I need to lean into this and see what I can do.

Well, and maybe there's a baby version of this that perhaps provides a bit more solace and optimism. A baby version of this is that the way that people did, let's call it, product management back in the day when HP and Cisco and AMD and these other companies built products that were physical hardware, they had long engineering cycles. There is a discipline called product management that was birthed. And that discipline had a very, very specific, very structured way of working that was essentially imploded when the internet companies came along. And Google, for one, built the APM program because they felt like, hey, this product thing that exists in the market isn't really what we need, and we're not seeing success. And in fact, we're going to just train from the beginning this new breed. And that then birthed a lot of the current product managers. Microsoft and Meta and other big employers started to create a new version. And for the first few years, it was very jarring because everything that they did where they called product management resembled old product management pretty much in name only. And there wasn't, you go to business school, you get a business school degree, and all of a sudden you're a product manager. You would have to work, and if you build some expertise, then you'd have to come in and help organize and collaborate and all this other good stuff.

The next couple of years are going to be like that where every three months, we're going to have more agents, different forms of judgment. They're blurring the lines on what the role responsibility, people from different backgrounds coming in, people leaving. It's going to be chaos. But as a couple of years go by, things will settle. Companies will be built a certain way. And it won't be that you'll continue to change the way you're working. You'll have reached some form of optimization. We're just not in that optimization in any way, shape, or form right now. And so the speed of iteration and how you think about, look, my job is not to move information. My job is to evaluate. And I have to think through what success looks like, whether this makes sense for the system. It's a totally different skill.

But after a couple of years, there's going to be some routineness to it. There's going to be some training. There's going to be consistency. The job you have next is going to look like the previous job. All I'm making a point is that you need to cross the threshold to stay modern because things are changing. But I don't want to send the point that for the next 30 years, you're going to be on this merry-go-round that's going to spin faster and faster and faster, and then you're just going to have to run off the merry-go-round and go vomit in the corner. That's not at all what I'm suggesting. I'm just saying that right now is the moment when, if you love building, you have to stay current because you will be happier and you will be more relevant. And if you don't love building, you have to recognize the industry is moving away from you. That is the key point. And I don't think there's a person that's looking at the current way of building product. I don't think there's a person that's been on this podcast that would disagree with that statement.

That is a really empowering point to make there, that this is not forever, that it's a couple of years, potentially, maybe, I don't know, could be a little bit longer, but it's not a forever thing where you have to do this. You have to lock in and sacrifice forever. It's a this-is-the-moment to get on the rocket, to get on the ship. I don't know, the boat, whatever metaphor you want to use, whatever transportation. So I think that would make me feel better. I think the other good, again, just to remind people, this sucks to have to change. The good, as you shared earlier, comp has never been higher. There's a lot of open roles. People that are embracing this are having a lot of fun. Most PMs are sitting there all day waiting for stuff to happen, waiting for meetings and approvals and all this alignment and all these PR reviews. And now it's like, you can ship stuff so often. There's so much good that is happening. Maybe just remind us again of anything else there, just to inspire people to, okay, this is worth it.

I think let's go to the individual you're describing. There's someone who's sitting, who's really afraid, who's a builder, who's like, man, my job is changing so rapidly and I'm so nervous. And I have to think through what's my career going to look like. But I tend to ask the question, do you really love your day? If you put green, yellow, and red next to the meetings you had and did that for a week, and then we looked at the color chart, I'll bet you the vast majority of PMs that are in a product organization, they show mostly yellow and red. And I'm telling you the ones that are moving into more of this build mode, it's mostly green and yellow. And yet most of them are sitting very, very afraid, feeling stuck.

So what I'm suggesting is, how do you then transition mentally and then physically into a moment of going from this moment of fear and being on the sidelines to being in the game? What I have noticed, and this is a big surprise to me, is there is a moment where they experience the first joy in using the new tools. Everyone has a story, and it's always different, but it's super personal. It's going to be like, oh, I was doing it a certain way, and then all of a sudden I built this thing. And oftentimes it's like my partner and I use this app that I built, or I built a chief of staff app to keep track of my inbox, or I now manage the lights in my house using this thing. And it's some silly thing. And usually at companies, the story is like, and I stayed up all night, or I spent a bunch of time talking to my friends, or hacking away, or I just spent time talking to Claude about it.

Even my wife has a story about how she has this business that she's thinking through. And she went from using the AI to do a business plan to actually do test market. And everyone has this moment of joy. And then they're hooked. It's like they caught a bug. And at that moment is when they cross the threshold between fear to joy, and joy is the biggest antidote to burnout. And it creates opportunity because the moment you have joy, the moment it doesn't feel like work. And I think most product management feels like work if you're not building. And we are now moving into a world where product management will be building and joy, not work. So you just need to find a path to get there. And the moment you do, the rest of your human psyche creates time, doesn't feel like you're disappointing others, and builds energy, because people have more energy than they realize. They're just so exhausted by the monotony of what was defined as product management.

And so that is the number one piece of advice: have you found joy? Now, there's a class of person who's like, none of this is joyful. I find the whole thing to be boring, nauseating. I don't really like it. I'm like, well, then you're probably not in for the next version of our industry. And you should be respectful of that and you should be honest with yourself. But there's a lot of product people that are right now very anxious that actually are going to be happier once they cross the chasm, and all they need to do is find a way to create that moment of joy, whether that's an app on their side or the app at your work. And if you're a leader listening to this, you should find those moments of joy in your staff because that's contagious and it gets people excited. And that's why I like doing what I do. I like building stuff, and I caught the bug, and I'm all there all the time. And I try to find TV shows that I can vibe code in parallel to because I want to watch TV,

And you should be respectful of that, and you should be honest with yourself. But there's a lot of product people that are very anxious right now that actually are going to be happier once they cross the chasm, and all they need to do is find a way to create that moment of joy.

Whether that's an app on their side or the app at your work. And if you're a leader listening to this, you should find those moments of joy in your staff because that's contagious, and it gets people excited. And that's why I like doing what I do. I like building stuff, and I caught the bug, and I'm all there all the time. And I try to find TV shows that I can vibe code in parallel to because I want to watch TV, but I want to be vibe coding at the same time. What's a good show? What's a good show for my coding? I think a lot of the Amazon Prime shows are good.

That's not a knock on Amazon Prime, but they're built on books. These books are structured and all that. So Alex Cross or Jack Ryan. What's hilarious is when you get older, you remember shows that you love, but you don't remember the plot. So one time I just binge-watched a season of 24, the show that I loved back in the day, but frankly, I watched it and I kind of knew what was going on, but I vibe coded the whole time because it was like, hey, I'm paying attention here, but I'm staying engaged. Well, let's actually follow this thread. What's your AI stack? What are you using to build? And what is something you built and something you've coded?

I am pretty all in on Claude these last three months. I was, for a month, pretty aggressive on Codex because I found some of their newer stuff, especially with the highest level of reasoning, to be quite advanced. I find it hard to switch between tools, so I try to standardize. To be direct, the things that I build, I build a bunch of web properties for my community. So anytime I see something that I can obsolete in code, I try to build code around it.

So if you had a hundred people, one natural thing you want people to do is to meet each other. And a hundred people can't meet 99 other areas. So you have to be thoughtful around who's the best person to meet and how do you match people up. How do you make sure that you match people with people they haven't met before? What are their haves or their wants? That entire thing used to be me sitting down and thinking, Jay Z would really appreciate meeting Annie, but I don't know if they've met before. Now I write software to do that. I write an agent that goes in and actually does matching.

I write an agent to figure out, hey, what are all the jobs that my head of product are hiring? How do we make sure that we make those available, but then build a mailing list of folks who I think, when they're interested in work, can get matched up automatically? So the next generation of recruiting. I think a lot about using AI for content. So when I sit down, I have an AI that takes questions from people, and then it's trained on my content like yours, and it gives answers. But then I read those questions, evaluate the answers, and I'm like, hey, this is a theme I'm hearing. And then I sit down and I write down when the LLMs and I disagree, I go through.

So all of these things are anything that I'm doing that I think I can replicate. I try to obsolete myself. When I first started my first job, I asked the best engineer that I worked with, who still is one of the best engineers I've ever met, what's the definition of a great engineer? And I thought it would be someone who's got this degree or is well-versed in this technology stack. He's like, well, the best engineer I know is my dad. And of course, this is before tech in that case. And he's like, my dad's definition is still my favorite, which is an engineer is someone who obsoletes themselves from everything they do. That's the definition of a great engineer.

And I've taken that to every job that I've worked at. And it's funny because you'll run into people that are like, I don't know. I don't want to obsolete myself. That's my job. And I was like, I think if I obsolete, there'll be a better job for me. What AI has done is put an appeal on that. It's like, if you can obsolete by just asking the AIs to do this for you. So why I'm saying that is my stack is: what can I do to obsolete anything and everything I do on a daily basis?

That is super cool. I love hearing these stories. What I find is the best tactic here is just solve your own problem. Think about something that is not great in your day to day or something you just want to improve. It sounds so easy. All you do is go to Lovable or install Claude Code, download Codex, and just tell it, I want to build the dashboard to control my Sonos. And then it just tells you. It walks you through everything you need to explore. And that's a pretty advanced thing to try, but it's just like English. It sounds like I have no know-how to do this. You just tell it, here's what I want to do, just like a person, and it helps you figure it out.

And I agree with you. And then I think the question is, what skill do you have to have? For a while I was like, that's a systems engineering skill because you need to be able to train the AIs to go after things. But I'm watching my wife and how she works, and she's not an engineer by any means, and she's getting tons of value. You don't even need to be an engineer. You just have to be opinionated in what you want to see and know what you want.

Yeah, and know what good looks like. And then the moment that you get it is when the light bulb turns on. When it wasn't working before, and now you sit down, and there's this moment where it's like, hey, I used to have to go and work to do this, but now my agent's doing this. And then what's the next agent I could do to make my life a little bit better? And that's where you catch the bug.

It's such a powerful thought that your job can be much more joyful as a product manager, as any function, but we're focusing on PMs. If you look at your pie chart today of how happy you are during the day, you can actually be much happier in this future. And I think that's hard for people to really realize. Oh, wow. Okay. I can actually love this job so much more. I did not imagine that. Yeah. And I think that it's because you're staring at change. And I think change is such an alarm bell. It's hard to hear the voice that says the thing that you are changing, or the things you don't love, because change is so hard for us that it's so scary. And I respect that.

So I think that if your listeners are able to understand that, hey, there is a world which is better, but I have to go through the tunnel, and the tunnel sucks. And the tunnel may mean that I'm going to have to change jobs. I mean, my prediction is the vast majority of people that are listening to this will be in a different job in the next five years because they will either choose to move to something because that company will struggle to stay modern. Just like we're describing, people need to stay modern, companies need to stay modern, or their companies are going to be shedding and returning off staff.

And so because change is apparent, I think it's just so deafening that people are very much gun-shy to be excited about something that's forced on them. And let's be honest, it's been forced on everyone, and it's not something that they chose. So that's why I have a lot of empathy. But when I talk to

the tunnel sucks. And the tunnel may mean that I'm going to have to change jobs. My prediction is the vast majority of people that are listening to this will be in a different job in the next five years, because they will either choose to move to something, or that company will struggle to stay modern. Just like we're describing, people need to stay modern, companies need to stay modern, or their companies are going to be shedding and returning staff. And so because change is apparent, I think it's just so deafening that people are very much gun-shy to be excited about something that's forced on them. And let's be honest, it's been forced on everyone, and it's not something that they chose. So that's why I have a lot of empathy. But when I talk to people, I try to dig through, forget what's happened, and how do we make the best out of it? And the best is pretty good.

So say we've convinced the listener, okay, I need to make a change. I need to lean into this. I need to take this seriously. I can't just sit back and hope it all works out. Okay. And then they maybe found a moment of joy. They built something that's super cool. And just, hey, check this out. What other advice do you have for folks listening to help them to serve? I don't know. Let's not say survive, but thrive in this future that is emerging for product.

Yeah. I like thrive. I definitely think that you find that moment of joy, you have the engineering mindset, which is, hey, I want to obsolete myself on something that I do today. Again, reduce the less joyful parts of my job is a good starting point. I think that you have to find the ability to increase pace. This is not a job. This is the next two years. It requires a lot of fire in the belly, a lot of agency that everyone talks about. So for example, if you were to leave a job and start a new job, you probably don't view the new job year one at the same pace that you viewed year five in your last job. You need to bring it. If you have a new relationship, and if you've come off of a long-term relationship, my suspicion is your first year of that relationship, you put your best foot on. This is what I'm asking. You've got to find that reserve. You've got to make time. You've got to maybe disappoint others in a way that you haven't in the past in order to create time for you to stay current, find that joy, obsolete yourself from the things that are not worth it.

I think the other thing you have to do is you have to swallow your ego.

I don't want a single person saying, hey, I was a X, Y, Z leader. I would only consider roles at that same level. I want people. This is an extension of our last conversation. Not only is it in vogue to be hands-on, and I see it's a necessity, I need everyone to say, look, if everything's changing, it doesn't matter what we've done in the past. That brand doesn't matter. As we discussed, you have to have an egoless perspective of how to stay current, and you would be not only willing, but actually look for ways to even take something smaller in order to make sure that you're going through the tunnel correctly. And then ultimately, part of the way we swallow that ego is you stay long-term focused. You say, look, if the way we build product is changing so aggressively, my job is to spend the next couple of years being on the boat that's leaving the station and going to the new world. Once I get to the new world, the cream rises to the top. I'll take my skills, my leadership, and I'll go through it. By the next few years, if everything's changing, I definitely want to be current. And that means you have to have a long-term focus. My property is called the Skip, but the community and everything, they all come down to this word called the skip. And I chose that word because the best career advice is always not thinking about the next move, but the move after. What's the skip job? What's the skip opportunity? Well, in this world, it's not about what's the opportunity now and what's the journey. It's about making sure that your skip opportunity is saved and you are able to get that high salary. You're able to get one of those premier builder jobs. And that's the world that you have to have and the mindset you have to have.

A. Something you mentioned earlier was really interesting, that in the next five years, you predict that most people's jobs will be very different. What are you imagining there? Will there still be this product manager role? Will PMs need to move closer to engineering? What's the Venn diagram or spectrum you're seeing of where current PMs may go?

Will PMs need to move closer to engineering? Yeah. I definitely think that there's a world where PMs go to every industry as what I would call the agents of change. Because the PMs are the ones that can talk. They're the ones that have the broadest view of the organization, but they look at it through the technical lens. And my hope is that most of our PMs are the first to the tools, and hence they're the change agents within their company. So let's just play this out in the next year.

We start to see all these product organizations changing the way they build product. And all of a sudden, the way we build product is gentrified and really, really thoughtful and really far along. And then 12 months later, the marketing, the sales organization, the HVAC company that was bought by the private equity firm, the school down the road, everything's like, boy, we are just not up, we're not current, we're going to get obsolete. Who do we bring in to be in charge of this change? Well, this person works in the future. We need to get to the future. So I'm really bullish that product leaders are going to be like those dandelion seeds when you blow it and they just go everywhere. I have that vision.

Meanwhile, I think a lot of people going into product might be coming from design, might be coming from data science, might be coming from engineering, because the ones that have judgment, the ones that can talk, the ones that want to stay current, they might be like, well, I don't necessarily want to just stay in my lane. I have a point of view as to how this should work. As you said, from a designer point of view, designers may have a lot of those skills and opinions on what it should look like. Maybe their platform won't be the pixels or the visuals. It will be the product itself, and they can be adjacent and they move into product. So I think you're going to see this crazy influx and then this amazing exodus. And then you'll also see folks that are like, ooh, I don't know if I can get in. So I know that's a confusing set of three changes, but that explains why so many people have anxieties. All three of these are happening instantaneously. There's a line: they thought they buried us. They didn't know that we were seeds. That's what I think about. I love that. We're into a lot of the darker.

Speaking of that, there's this hilarious tweet that just came out the other day that I have here, where this guy describes the only four jobs that will remain in the future. So the only four jobs that will exist in the future: one is product engineer, vibe coder, PM slop cannon. Number two is security, SRE, infra person. Number three is hot people, which is getting people to buy your stuff, customer service, people, the way they're scared. Remember, there are many ways to be. I know that. Here's how they put it. Present that easy UX to the world is that category. And then grownups, which is your point of just adults. Yeah. So.

Yeah. I think there's, I read that and I agree with that. I think the adults exist, and I think anyone that's at the top of their field that can talk and that essentially is opinionated, can go broad. That's kind of the third point of hot people. So that actually reminds me. So Amod, the head of growth at Anthropic, made this really interesting point that so much of his time now more and more is alignment as a product manager. And we were joking, what's the harder alignment problem, aligning people in a company or AI's AGI? And it feels like that's remaining, and it's part of what

to be, I know that here's how they put it. Present that easy UX to the world is that category. And then grownups, which is your point of just adults. Yeah. So yeah. I think there's, I read that and I agree with that. I think the adults exist, and I think anyone that's at the top of their field that can talk and that essentially is opinionated, I can go broad. That's the third point of hot people. So that reminds me. So Amod, the head of growth at Anthropic, made this really interesting point that so much of his time now, more and more, is alignment as a product manager. And we were joking, what's the harder alignment problem, aligning people in a company or AI's AGI? And it feels like that's remaining, and it's part of what you described, somebody that can get shit done, a change agent. And a big part of that is what a PM often is doing a lot of their time, creating alignment internally around what we will be doing, what we're purchasing, that kind of thing. Yeah. And I think that if you dissect what alignment looks like, a lot of alignment was getting people the right information, the ground-level truth. That problem is dramatically better. That part of the job, frankly, just absolutely sucked. Whether it was the status report or put, I was on projects where there were docs that were sent to me, and then I would change the doc to then send it to my boss. And then that boss would send it to, and it was just this movement of information where the ground truth was buried in some part of the organization. And then there were all these people that were putting on their spin. I think that is changing. But to your point now, someone has to decide, and someone has to have an opinion and what to fight for. And that conversation is now much clearer to have because the ground truth, there's less spin. The CEO can literally ask their agent, well, what is the situation? How is this performing? What does this customer really want? How does this affect the system? Is this really something that we want to change the product to enable? So that conversation can happen, but now people can fight it out with real credence. Right. And if you're a product person that really does have an opinion and wants to make a point, you have a forum. So alignment won't go away. It's just not going to have as much theatrics. And I think a lot of companies that are larger do have theatrics that I think the AIs are going to remove. And I don't know of many PMs. There's some that lived for the theatrics, but frankly, most of them are like, this just seems like a fricking waste of time. It's so telling that 80%, I bet you, this is a statement of 80%. If you truly asked your PM, do you really want that boss's boss's job? Would you want their day? Not the pay, not the credibility, not the stature, but do you want their block back-to-back meetings? I bet you most of them would say no. And what I'm suggesting to you is that answer is going to change in the next two years. What's also really interesting is as much as this role is changing, engineering is changing even more. And what I feel like is that the engineers that will continue to thrive are basically going to become more PM-y because the coding part is now going to be solved. And now it's just, what should we build? Is this great? Is this the direction we want to go? What does success look like? So if you're like, oh, my job is changing, just imagine being an engineer right now and how crazy that must feel.

Yeah. And I think the one advantage that engineers have is they think in systems, and they think about obsolescence more effectively. So I think that when you make a change, you have to decide, is this change going to be sustainable in the product that you're offering? I think an engineer has an edge there. Mm-hmm. I think the other edge they have is like, I bet you we can build this to be more automated, to be simpler. I think those things. The mind already goes there. Yeah.

Yeah. So I think that every one of us, the product person probably has a little bit of an edge in judgment and communication. The engineer is going to have a little bit of an edge in system scaling. And how does this change affect folks? The designer is going to have a little bit of an edge with taste, and all of these things will still remain important. And obviously, people that have all of these will do better than those that have one or two, but the industry is more than safe, as evidenced by your report that there's more hiring. And I think it's going to grow. It's just a different class of individual. This is what we're trying to communicate.

The design piece is really surprising to me. The fact that there's data showing that the number of design roles is plateauing and just how teams are not valuing design as much as you think. You would think that design becomes much more important as the number of products grows exponentially, that it's a way to stand out, to build something really beautiful, and have a really thought-through experience. And it's interesting that that's not happening right now. Also, I've been thinking about, there's no world where I'm a great designer. I can't just use AI and become a great designer. Unlike an engineer, maybe a PM, I could become a much better PM with AI. AI is knocking. It will do some cool stuff, but I'm not ever going to feel like I am a great designer now. So it's really interesting that design isn't more successful right now with the rise of AI. And it might be that we just don't know what to make of design in this era. That might be a piece of it. The other piece might be just there's product builders and then product information movers, and they're split up. I think that there are pixel generators and then there are tastemakers. And I worry that in design, maybe the industry itself conflates design with more production and not with taste. And so I think there are a lot of companies that you would talk to, and even when they were hiring to design, they were thinking more around, we need more production. And great designers are much more tastemakers. And I think that bias is probably entering into the hiring plans in this era that we have today.

What a wild time we are living through, Nikko. Holy moly. Yeah. Isn't it funny that neither of us are operational? There are days when I'm like, man, am I so happy I have the time to work on this, and then other days that I think this is some of the most interesting, like being operational right now is quite a ride. And so there's good and bad. And COVID wasn't easy. There were a lot of challenges around working and seeing some of that change. So there's always something, but this one, everything's being questioned, including how you define joy, which I think is just absolutely fascinating. Chaos is a ladder, as Littlefinger famously said.

Nikko, is there anything that we haven't covered, anything else that you think is important for people to hear, any other advice, anything you want to double down on before we wrap up and get to a very exciting lightning round?

I would just say that there's a lot of room to be optimistic right now, but you have to find it within yourself to recognize that there is a small period of change and exhaustion that's required to find that moment of joy. And I just urge everyone to find those reserves to get there because once you do, it's infectious, but the longer you wait, the harder it is to cross that chasm. And so I really want people to feel optimistic and find that moment of joy. But I also recognize that there is a lot of activation energy that it takes to get there. And so my hope is that, and there's a lot of people going through it, so there's some safety in numbers here, but definitely I urge everyone to try their hand at rethinking their craft.

And just to be clear, you're seeing many people in the community doing well, enjoying this, thriving, if this is possible. Yeah. It's smiling exhaustion. I see in my community everyone, and before it was just exhaustion. So I take smiling exhaustion over exhaustion.

and exhaustion that's required to find that moment of joy. And I just urge everyone to find those reserves to get there because once you do, it's infectious. But the longer you wait, the harder it is to cross that chasm. And so I really want people to feel optimistic and find that moment of joy. But I also recognize that there is a lot of activation energy that it takes to get there. And so my hope is that you've, and there's a lot of people going through it. And so there's some safety in numbers here, but definitely I urge everyone to try their hand at rethinking their craft. And just to be clear, you're seeing many people in the community doing well, enjoying this, thriving, if this is possible. Yeah. It's smiling exhaustion. I see in my community everyone, and before it was just exhaustion. So I take smiling exhaustion over exhaustion. But the pace is relentless. I don't have, there's nothing I can say to sugarcoat that point. What a time to be alive. Well, Nikhil, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? Go for it. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people? Lenny, I'm not a reader. So I don't hate to admit this, but I kind of vibe code instead of most consumption of content right now. All of the reading I do is trying to stay up to date. And that was a casualty. So I don't listen to as many podcasts as I want to, I don't read as much as I want to, because I have so much information coming from the agents that I have deployed and all the stuff that's going on on Reddit and X and all that. So I don't have a great set of book suggestions, not unlike all your other guests that are great at this. They read prolifically and I just don't. I'll tell you, I read this book called James, which is the story of Huckleberry Finn told from Jim's point of view. I thought that was absolutely fascinating because anytime you take a classic and then you look at it through the eyes of someone else, what you realize is that story is quite powerful, but very haunting. And when you read Huckleberry Finn, you're a kid. So the distinction between seeing the innocence as not only the book was written from Twain's perspective, who was quite forward-thinking, by the way, but you remember you were a kid at the time. And now as an adult, you see the book from another angle. I thought that was interesting. I don't know if I'd recommend it to your viewer readers, but I thought I always look for unnatural stories that exist right in plain sight. So that was an example of that. I think somebody else has actually recommended that book. So that's the second mention. Next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show?

You've already shared some vibe coding favorites to be in the background. Anything else? Yeah. I mean, I think everyone's talking about Paradise. If you haven't watched season one and season two, is season two out? I didn't realize that. It's almost wrapping up, and I haven't watched season two yet. But it's a little apocalyptic in nature, but it's absolutely fascinating character drama about how people deal with very, very challenging times and what motivates individuals. The other one that I really like is Lioness, which is on Paramount Plus. Lioness is a story really about a covert CIA group and how they deal with protecting security for America and the importance and what it means to commit to a bigger cause. I thought that was a really well-written show. So both of those I recommend. I do watch a ton of television, and as I mentioned, I vibe code to certain shows. And these two, I don't live code to because I have to pay attention. That's the ultimate. That's the new bar if something's great. Okay. Do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love? Could be an app, could be some gadget, could be something else. My favorite product that I've discovered of late might be obvious to a lot of folks, but I'm not a car guy, so I'll just start by saying that. Though I've enjoyed riding in newer electric cars, there's a large number of people that love cars. They love driving cars and talking about cars and repairing cars. That's the opposite of me. I just want my car to be super reliable.

I've had a Tesla for a really long time, a Model S for a long time. I've had it since pretty much they came out with them. My daughter recently passed her driving exam, and because she passed her driving exam, one day my wife said, "Hey, we got to get her a car." And I was like, "We do?" I never actually connected the dots that she's going to need to drive a car. And I was like, "Well, where's she going to go?" And eventually I'm like, "Okay, maybe we should buy her a car, but she's not going to drive that much. Maybe I should use this as an opportunity to upgrade my car." And so I drove the latest Teslas that are out there, the ones with the self-driving. And the self-driving works quite well, just to be clear. I've had it now for the last month, and about 95% of the time I self-drive. But the most interesting thing is I had no idea that I actually have mild anxiety when I drive that goes away when I self-drive. And I had no idea. My wife noticed it when we were driving up to the mountains one day and it was crazy snowing. And I'm like, "We're going to do it." And she's like, "You are so anxious when you drive." And I'm like, "I am?" Because, Lenny, I've been driving since I was 14 years old because I grew up in Kansas. And so I passed the test when I was 14. So I've been driving literally for nearly 40 years. And I had no idea as I've gotten older that pressing a button and going places is just so awesome. So anyway, the reason why that experience is interesting, yeah, there's the tech and all that. It's just that I look for ways to reduce my anxiety. Anything that causes anxiety, I try to eliminate at this point in my life. And this is one of them. So that's a cool product for me. I love that as a rule. I've also become all in on self-driving. I've had a Tesla for a long time, from the beginnings of their explorations into self-driving. And it was always just like, "I don't know, this is scary." And now it's the opposite. My wife prefers I self-drive, even though I drive well. She just feels safer when the self-driving is on. And in the actual settings, they give you a stat of what percentage you're driving on self-driving, and they noted it since 14.2, I think it was the release, something like that. So that was the release that everyone started being like, "Wow, it's actually very good now." And I don't think a lot of people realize that it's actually incredibly good. I haven't had a single concerning moment. This is one of those examples in product where so many people tried the previous versions that when you then tell your friend, a lot of people have Teslas obviously in California, but across the world, when you tell your friends, a lot of people are like, "Oh yeah, I tried it. I turned it off." So I think Tesla's got this unusual challenge of getting people to turn it back on. And obviously the newer hardware is better than the older one and the new software. But once you go through one experience, it can be hard to convince someone to try it again. And that's an adage in product and certainly applies here.

It's the downside of releasing early enough. And sometimes people just have this memory of what

that. So that was the release that everyone started being like, wow, it's actually very good now. And I don't think a lot of people realize that it's actually incredibly good. I haven't had a single concerning moment. This is one of those examples in product where so many people try the previous versions that when you then tell your friend, a lot of people have Teslas, obviously in California, but across the world, when you tell your friends, a lot of people are like, oh yeah, I tried it. I turned it off. So I think Tesla's got this unusual challenge of getting people to turn it back on. And obviously the newer hardware is better than the older one and the new software. But once you go through one experience, it can be hard to convince someone to try it again. And that's an adage in product and certainly applies here.

It's the downside of releasing early enough. And sometimes people just have this memory of what it might be. I feel like this is like Uber, where you mostly have to just start hearing about it from your friends telling you, hey, I'm doing this thing. And you're like, wait, really? I guess I should try it. Yeah, yeah, I figured. Yeah. They ought to just, so here's a Tesla suggestion for anyone that's listening, is Lenny and I should be able to gift 30 days free to our friends of self-driving, people that have turned it off, because the referral of that, plus the endorsement, allows people to experience it for free, and then they can get their monthly subscription. Great idea.

That viral plus enablement, I think, is a growth technique that they can have for free from us. Such a good idea. By the way, I love Mad Max mode. I love the personality of the stuff. Are you a hurry mode guy, or are you a standard mode guy? I flip between them, but I do feel like I'm hoping that the new release of the software keeps us in lane. I don't love it changing lanes, but it's where it's trying to hurry a little bit. I wish I could just get it to go at a normal speed, but also don't change lanes, because I just don't like moving around. It's just, okay. Absolutely. Okay, next question. Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to in work and during life? My high school quote in my yearbook still is my motto, which is, genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration, by Albert Einstein. It's something that, even at an early age, and it's not about genius being capital G, it wasn't an ego comment. It was more like hard work is really what matters in life.

What's interesting is if you read that quote, genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration, through the lens of AI. It's absolutely fascinating, because it turns out the AI will do the perspiration. Unlimited perspiration, quite literally.

So I think what we're leaning towards is we're moving to a world where we're all going to be inspired, and it's the inspired individuals in all of us that will essentially continue to proliferate. And don't worry about the perspiration, but recognize that it is the perspiration that is a necessity to make things go. Anyway, I think it's an interesting quote, especially in today's era. Final question. People may have noticed that we've started collaborating on your podcast and your newsletter. It's such an underappreciated, underseen thing that you do, this podcast, this newsletter. It fills such a gap in the content out there around product building of just very tactical, important, non-sugar-coated career advice for people in product. And what I love about it is it's not AI most of the time, in spite of this conversation we just had. It's very much like, here's stuff you need to know that is not flashy and shiny, AI, AI, AI all the time. So I want to give you a chance just to tell people about this, the podcast, the newsletter, what the ideas were, where they can find it.

I started this property called Skip because I really felt that there was a dearth of content from operators sharing best practices with emerging operators. And the idea was, look, I had been a founder before, I had been an executive before, and I wanted to be in a position where I can say, hey, this is exactly what I experienced, and this might apply to you. And I noticed that most of the podcasts and content out there were from folks that hadn't spent as much time operating, more time in content. And I was kind of the opposite. Then I started building this community that I spoke about last time, which was about 23 at the time. Now it's over 125 head of products who are all these builders, top of their game, and reinventing what product management looked like. And our goal is to collectively share our wisdom as operators to help people advance in career. And that calling is probably more important now than ever, as everything's changing. And so one of the things that we're launching next month, by the time that we end up launching this episode, is something called skip.help, where we have agents that have been trained on about 50 of our community leaders. And so you can go and ask a question. It might be preparing for an interview. It might be a question around navigating your current environment. It might even be, how do I build a chief of staff app, and 50 of us, not just me, will respond. And this is powered by our friends over at Supermeme, which is a great startup, that actually by having these agents, you get the wisdom of the crowds. And so those are the things that I love. And obviously the community itself is a very curated group, and there's an infinite wait list. A lot of people want to be in it. I'm only growing it slowly because I want to maintain trust. But I do have this mailing list called skip.coach, where we share our wisdom to a broader audience. So I know I've kind of gotten every single domain name that starts at Skip: skip.community, skip.show is my podcast, skip.coach, skip.help. But anyway, go to any of them and you can triangulate all of them. And I always appreciate, Lenny, your support and your help in building this property with me, so it's been great. When I came on, I don't think I had done my podcast yet, and now I'm about ready to hit my 50th episode, and you're a big inspiration, and you're past 300, obviously. And so it's fun to see how things change and then somehow how things happen. So it's been great. So fun. I was gonna ask you to show the domains, which you did. So it's skip.coach, skip.community, skip.show. And then there's skip.help, their new one, skip.help, which is launching around the time this goes out. And then you also have your Substack. I don't know if one of those takes you there, but it's theskip.substack.com. Yeah, yeah, exactly. The Skip is the name of the podcast and newsletter, and skip.show takes us to both. Mikael, thank you so much for being here. This was exactly what was helping. I feel like people are gonna leave this being like, okay, I get it now. I understand what I need to be doing. I appreciate that. And thanks for all you do for the community and for all the guests that you still have now, probably two dozen of the folks on Skip that have been on the show or that will be on the show. So thanks for supporting all of our efforts. We're trying to help as many product builders as possible, and that's a great journey to be on together. It is. Mikael, thank you so much for being here. Thanks, Lenny. Thanks, everyone. Bye, everyone.

Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode. transition a little bit to my thoughts on people, but I'll pause for a second to see if this resonates with you. That's, uh, scary to hear. We're going to talk about what folks listening can do to be in,

to do their best to be in that second bucket of being rehired and, and kept, because there's a lot you can do. And there's a lot of people that know they need to change and adjust and they're not doing anything. And now we want to talk about maybe some of the blockers there. One thing I'll note is I, I should have mentioned this earlier. I just did this, uh, report on job, the job market. And interestingly, as of today, at least we have the most open PM roles globally at tech companies, uh, in three plus years. The last time it was this high was kind of during COVID basically. So there's

some good news there at least for the PM role. I don't know. Did that surprise you Lenny? Yeah, it did. Cause there's always the sense that, you know, why do we need PMs? What's the point? We have AI, just build stuff. And like my sense, I've always been saying this. I feel like the PM skill is the most important, valuable skill of all the skills. And I know every role thinks this about their role. It's like, no design, we sign more than anything now. Like, but, but I feel like what you said, where it's the deciding what to build, deciding if this is good and great and ready and prioritizing, I feel like that's what remains. So, uh, so to me, it makes sense.

We report came out in a fortuitous time because it was right before I was preparing to kind of come on the show. And there are the three points I was going to make is, you know, builders are going to have the time of their lives. Comp's actually up and the Bay area is, you know, essentially back in, in, uh, in, in favor. And I think those three things came very much loud and clear in your report. Um, and I think you're the question around, Hey, why are product managers doing so well? Why are there so many jobs when in reality, a lot of product people that all of us know are struggling

to find a role, or we're hearing about these layoffs. I think it depends on how you define what a product manager is. And I think that for the first time, I think that we did have a dramatic shift in what's defined. We three years ago talked about, Hey, product managers, there's lots of archetypes. Some archetypes are actually more in favor. This was the IC conversation, the builder conversation. Now what we're essentially saying is the, the, the information mover is essentially going to become a dinosaur. And I think about half of the product people that were kind of, that grew into the industry,

you know, have that skill and superpower. And then there were a set of people who got into product because they like to build stuff, you know, and you know, folks like yourself who were founder, who that was sort of the motivation and the joining kind of the industry. And then they found themselves into this thing called product management. Those folks are builders, you know, and those people are the ones that are being hired by your survey. I think those product managers, everybody wants a builder. And I think that interestingly, lots of engineers are builders, lots of designers are builders,

lots of marketing folks are builders. And I think builders wanted is going to be the big tagline for the next couple of years. And it is so fun to build. I, I I'll bet you, and this is a prediction that if you had to choose between preparing a podcast and sitting in codex or sitting in cloud code and like working on your laptop, you would prefer the latter. It is so fun. Yeah. Just like progress. You just make so much fun. It's like, look at this thing go. It's getting better. It's getting better. I mean, when I was a PM, I used to take a break and go and go change the light bulbs in the house.

And the reason why I would change the light bulbs is that light bulb was broken, but then I replaced it and the light came on and man, was that satisfying because in a product job, there is very few days of satisfaction because you don't really have the ability to see something broken that gets fixed. It's just part of the challenge in having responsibility without authority until now. Now you can participate in the joy. You can create a design. You don't have to wait for the designer and convince the designer to go and actually work through this or to put your stuff on a backlog. You don't have

to do that. And so I think that the builders are going to have a time of their lives. And I think they're going to be very focused on judgment. I think that they're going to invade other functions. I think there's going to be, you know, when, when I started the group five years ago, we had for the first two to three years until we got to about 60, 70 people in this community of, of head of products. We had one founder in the last 12 months, as we've gone to about 125, we have 14 founders, 14 people essentially have decided that their next job was not to take another product

executive role, but to found founding CEO is now open to us. I, I have one person, very senior person on, uh, you know, in my group who interviewed for a CHRO position because they wanted a product manager background for the CHRO position. What is CHRO? That's the chief HR person in the company, right? So you would never think that an HR person would be a former product manager, but now forward-leaning companies are starting to say, Hey, we need someone who can bring this obsolescence skill, this judgment skill, this empowerment skill, this builder skill to the function. In fact,

the function might be easier to learn than the other parts of the job. And, you know, we're seeing that trend that product builders are going to have, you know, both a broader range of opportunities companies up and down the stack, and it won't be product managers and engineers can become product leaders and product builders. And all of this blurring of the lines is going to take place. I think that unfortunately the flip side has to be mentioned. I think that non builders, and I think that anyone who sort of sees themselves as not loving, like sitting down and building something. And there may be reasons why we'll get into why you may not be in a position to, to find the

time, let's say, but if you're not a builder, if you're like, look, my skill was never to, I'm not really into tech. Like people say this all the time. I'm not really into tech. I just really found it to be a lucrative job. It's a, you know, it's a role where my ability to communicate, my ability to move information was, you know, where I ended up enjoying it. I love team building, you know, those kinds of notes, which by the way, I love all those things. Um, but if you don't love building stuff, you're in trouble. And, and I mentioned about half the people are in that camp. So we're going to have that challenge

where they're going to have to find perhaps leave the tech industry. They might have to, you know, it might be that they, um, you know, want to go build a new business outside attack, but use some of these AI tools, or maybe they, they want to find a job completely foreign to tech. But I think that this non-builder piece is a, is a sort of a mirror image of the builder growth, that story that we're seeing. There's so many directions we can go here. One thing I want to throw out, it's kind of a hot take and this came from a chat. I just had with a mold ahead of growth and growth at Anthropic.

So he's at a growth, he's a PM. And he had this really interesting point that as engineers can do so much more PMs are getting squeezed because they have to stay on top of so many things, so many features, so many ideas, so much doc, so many things being set to them. And there's this push for PMs at companies to ship yards, build stuff themselves. And what we took away from that chat is like the leverage that PMs often have is a lot higher, not spending time coding and shipping, but instead just like staying on top of all this stuff. And he's like, we need more PMs now. There's so much for PMs to

do because engineers are so fast. So there's still need for like prototyping to explore ideas and ideate and get feedback and align. But he had an interesting take that like, I don't want to be like, it's better. I don't spend time shipping stuff. It's better. I do higher leverage work as a PM. It depends what he means by shipping stuff. Because I think that if you have an engineering team of 50 people building things for your customers and you're like, Hey, I want to be the 50 first because that's how I get leverage. I'm like, eh, it's kind of a cheap knockoff of an engineer.

If on the other hand, the thing that you're building is ways to stay on top of what the 50 people are, are doing. When in the past, that was building tickets and backlogs and all of the things that we used to do to figure out organizations, manage standups, you know, that's the information overload that's happening. What we saw when the CPOs got together is all of the things they're building are ways to drive efficiency out of their product organizations. They're inside the building kind of development efforts. And I'm not sure that for the next five years, we'll continue to build software

that way. But I think in the next two years, people are going to change the product operating system that they're working on. And we're already seeing companies that like stand up and they say, Hey, we've fully automated the way we do product reviews. We fully automated the way we do product standup. So to his point, look, if there's 15, 10 times the amount of stuff happening, we need judgment to determine whether it's good. These are good or bad changes. And right now, if it's manual, we're cooked. So it's a combination of hiring good product builders with judgment and then

hiring increasingly folks whose entire job is to kind of build the internal tools necessary to improve the decisioning. But it's not through hiring of humans and building management ethos, which is what it used to be in Zurb. It's actually through technology, but it's a totally different way of building software. And that's what gets people excited because they're like, wow, if I do this, I don't have to ever do a status report. I mean, that was a comment that was made. I hate doing status reports. So now I just wrote something and my boss is happier because they get more detail. And that to me is incredibly exciting,

but it is a different direction of what you're trying to deliver than something that goes out the door. Jeff Lerner That is such a good distinction and it makes all the sense. Basically, it's make yourself scale through software as much as possible. There's a big opportunity and it's fun. It's like you're building your own thing. Jeff Lerner That's right. That's right. I think a few other things that I would just note around how things are going to change the next couple of years. I think that adults are still going to be needed. I think companies are going to grow. They're going to grow quickly. I think those that are driving some of

these initiatives are classic founders and AI is great at supplementing a lot of things, but I think judgment comes in the form of a combination of expertise and wisdom. And so I think that increasingly I hear from my groups that, Hey, I'm attractive to this company because I have wisdom, but I stay hands-on. I have credibility with the founder so I can have a conversation with that individual in his or her language, but I have weight to my thinking. I have seen the movie. I have experience that actually would help them as they take this turn. So adults are still going to be

important. I think pace will continue to go up partly because people will want to feed the beast, the, the sort of LLMs that are running at night. And I think partly because there's just such an opportunity to keep moving so much faster. Uh, and I think that's going to be dizzying and I'm not excited about what that causes for burnout. Um, sadly, I think that geography and actually diversity is going to take a step back. I think that we were very good about driving more breath. As we grew the industry, we started looking at people who were from different backgrounds to populate it, including different

locations. But I think that because the AI wave is so heavily and, you know, coming from the, the, the, the Bay area and because companies are hiring fewer folks, they're hiring people that look and act like themselves. So age, gender, I think, uh, you know, ethnic, uh, backgrounds, uh, all of those are taking a hit. And I think that we will have stepped back quite a number of years in the diversity of what we do. And so I worry, um, I mean, this is my personal worry, but I worry about that. Um, probably more now than I did in the last five years. Um, because I think it's an underbelly of what we're, we're seeing.

And I don't think that anyone's intentionally doing anything, but I think when pace is so high, the fact is that, you know, women are having kids and in those power years and they just don't have the time, uh, to a lot to spending their nights and weekends and cloud code. And so that's an impact. And, you know, we don't talk about it as an industry, but it's absolutely true. Um, and then the last thing I would just say, and maybe this is, this goes into some of the advice as well is I think that the, one of the most surprising shifts we're seeing is, you know, your brands don't matter as

much as how modern you are in your ability to deliver product. In, in the past, I think for the last 10 years, it's like, have you seen the movie before? And I remember I, even in this last podcast episode we did, Lenny, we talked about, Hey, brands matter. You really need to make sure. Like personal brands. Yeah. Personal brands. Hey, I've worked for this company. They've delivered products. They've been at scale. So then people are like, oh, that person certainly we're doing. Right. And, and, you know, it's like, well, tell me about all the different experiences you've had.

But now if every way of building software and how we deliver product is completely alien to how it was in the last, you know, 10 years, how you delivered in that sort of version one is going to be less and less relevant. So lots and lots of feedback from that I'm hearing from interviews is like, put you in a scenario. What tools do you use? What's your judgment? How do you think? It's not about five years ago, you shipped this thing. What was your thinking that went into it? And so how modern you are now becomes the career advice, not did you pick up the established brands? Because what if the established brands is very much working in a way that's not current?

You work there for six years, you come out and it feels like you're in a totally different world, right? So that's why I think the next two years and these changes are so profound and, and quite frankly, confusing to people. That is such an interesting insight that the logo like used to be fancy to have all these logos in your resume. And now you're saying sometimes that may hurt you because that company is not seen as a very AI forward company. And second of all, people are looking for just like, what have you actually done? Are you actually aware of what's going on? Well, I was just going to say some of those biggest brands, it's hard to even talk about what

you've done. You know, it's like, you know, if you're working at Meta and you spent two years and I managed to make this, you know, piece of this algorithm, you know, go a little faster. And by the way, it had a huge impact. And, you know, frankly, it was incredibly hard to navigate the hallways and to make that decision and to find incrementality. I mean, as someone who has worked there, I understand and respect that. And that is a promotable, you know, achievement, but it just falls very flat on a conversation where someone's like living in the future and product is now totally different. Right. So that distinction is the, is the thing that I want to just call out that,

hey, that's happening every day right now. So what you're saying there, which is a really powerful point is that the skills that used to be really valued in product managers are changing pretty substantially. Yeah. And in fact, maybe almost flipped upside down in terms of importance, you know, in some ways we start our careers as builders, many of us, and then we get taught that leverage scale, organizing, streamline, empowering, enabling, don't do the build yourself, get others to do it. Stop working on the car, work on the factory, right? That's, that's the, that is the maturation of our industry. And then you find out that, well, what if it turns out the scale

can be done very differently and all we care about is your opinion and what you build, that's very charring and that's what we're living through right now. So let's follow this thread of specific advice to PMs right now, whether they're mid-career, senior getting started, what are some specific things that you think people should do to do well in this emerging future? Change is really hard for us. And I think as humans, we're not really designed to change very easily. Like if you think about it, you know, I was thinking, you know, about why is it hard for us to change when in some ways change can

lead us to much better outcomes. You know, we're almost like told to change less as we grow older. You know, when you're a kid, you fall down a ton, but like Lenny, what was the last time you fell down? Uh, not, not often, except my, my son loves to pretend like we're falling. So there's a lot of pretend. And when you pretend fall, it's probably pretty strong. It's probably relatively new. Yeah. For him, it's so fun. He loves it. But yeah, for me, it's such a long ways down. Yeah. And I think that it's funny because you watch kids and it's like normal for them to reinvent everything they do. Oh, I'm learning to crawl. Oh, now this walking thing, you know, crawling is

not, that's not for me. You know, it's why kids learn languages so quickly because they are not afraid to make mistakes and they go through things much more rapidly. It's why you teach your kids to learn how to ski early because boy, I, you know, I just made a decision. Hey, I've never been a skier and I'm just like too old to do it. I think that we are trained to find a happy medium and then make as few changes as possible. Find a partner, get settled down. You know, you find a job, try to stay. It's a failure to transition to a new job. If you can avoid it, you know, that's our entire map model.

And so we create also in some ways, a mental block around this idea of reinventing oneself. You know, you, when you are told to reinvent to when you are told to change your first thing you think about, is it really necessary? Boy, it seems exhausting. I worked so hard to get here. Why would I need to do that? And I think in the most inner psyche of some of us, it's that just wasn't the deal. The deal was I did what I was supposed to went to school. I worked hard. I got a job. I built a brand. I got to be a manager. I'm making the income. I have the, you know, whatever it might be, the partner,

the, the, the family, you know, all this stuff you're telling me after all this time, I got to start over. Like, it sounds fun. You read Twitter and you're like, wow, all these people are doing all this crazy stuff. But in the back of your mind, it's like, I just don't know why, why did we get here? I don't, I don't want to do it. I want to go back to the world where I can just keep doing things. So I think this block is actually at the heart of the matter today. And it's a skill reinvention and it requires time, but time is so hard to find in your power years. You know, for the reasons we mentioned with so many, you know, your goal when you're in your power

years is to equally disappoint everyone in your life, which sounds like a horrible statement, but it's true. You have to, you, you have six hours to give eight hours to give 12 hours to give, and you have 20 hours of demand. What is your prioritization mechanism? I am going to equally disappoint everyone, not disappoint one group. My parents will not be more disappointed than my kids, than my health and my family, than my friends and my partner, than my work, than, you know, my retirement account. Like that's essentially what your mindset is. It's, I need to equally disappoint

everyone. Now you're telling me that the number one thing is to reinvent when I'm barely able to manage this, this disappointment algorithm. It's quite dark that I think that, you know, that there's the setup. And then the worst part is these two other psychological factors. One is, okay, fine. I'll put the week, I'll take a week off and I'll go figure out what people are doing and what the latest is. And then it turns out three months later that week off was, is now antiquated. You got to keep doing it because the target keeps changing. It's not like I went from not having a job to having a new job.

And then I kind of grinned and bear and got through it. And now I'm back in flow. It's like, I'm never in flow. Cause I got to keep doing this over and over and over again. And the, the most surprising observation I made is that the, the ones that were the best at working in the past, the, the ones that mastered the old game, find it the hardest to go through this reinvention stage. It's this sort of shadow superpower thing that I talk about. You know, you've the better you are at mastering one system, the less likely you are to sort of recognize the new one because your entire world is like, this is

working to me. And so the weaker you are, the more excited you are about changing. Hey, what I'm doing isn't working. Might as well change it. But if you're really good, you have no incentive to change. And perhaps even your employer sees you're doing great. And the company itself is in this moment. So all of these things, whether it's the shadow, whether it's the exhaustion, whether it's the time, whether it's the fact that the target's moving creates this reluctance to reinvent. But the number one piece of advice to answer your question is you have to have the courage. You have to believe you have

to have the power to essentially say, look, I know the way we work is changing and I need to stay moderate. I need to stay current. So I am going to cross that mental threshold. And I'm going to prioritize that above all else. That crossing the threshold is the key. And I'll talk a little bit about how one does that. But I think that, I mean, if there was one thing to get away from today's discussion is every person listening to this podcast needs to find it in themselves to cross the threshold around embracing reinvention. That is the world that we live in now.

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to slow down and stop this stuff, would you do it? And they all said, yep. Which says a lot about just like, they're all like freaked out a bit about how fast everything's going, how much is changing. And then there's the reality of, but that is not going to happen because the game theory of it all is it doesn't work. You can't slow down because no one will actually slow down. Whoever doesn't has a huge advantage. And so I think it's just a big part of this insight is just like, this is happening and there's nothing you can do to slow it down or stop it. And you can either try to pretend like it's no big deal and it's going to be all right. Or you can,

as you said, get over this hump of just like, okay, I need to lean into this and see, see what I can do. Well, and maybe there's a baby version of this that perhaps provides a bit more kind of solace and optimism. A baby version of this is that, you know, the way that people did, let's call it product management back in the day when HP and Cisco and AMD and these other companies built products that were, you know, physical hardware, they had long engineering cycles. There is a discipline called product management that was birthed. And that discipline had a very, very specific,

uh, very structured way of working that was essentially imploded when the internet companies came along. And Google for one built the APM program because they felt like, Hey, this product thing that exists in the market, isn't really what we need and we're not seeing success. And in fact, we're going to just train from the beginning, this new breed. And you know, that then birthed a lot of the current product managers, Microsoft and meta and other big employers started to kind of create a new, new version. And for the first few years, there was, it was very jarring because everything that they did that where they

called product management resembled old product management, pretty much a name only. And there wasn't like you go to become a business school, uh, you know, you get a business school degree and all of a sudden you're a product manager, you would have to work. And if you build some expertise, then you'd have to come in and help organize and collaborate and all this other good stuff. The next couple of years are going to be like that where, you know, every three months, we're going to have more agents, different forms of judgment. They're blurring the lines on what the role responsibility people from different backgrounds

coming in, people leaving the it's going to be chaos. But as a couple of years go by, things will settle. Companies will be built a certain way. And it won't be that you'll continue to change the way you're working. You'll have reached some form of optimization. We're just not in that optimization in any way, shape or form right now. And so the speed of iteration and how you think about, look, my job is not to move information. My job is to evaluate. And I have to think through what is success look like, whether this makes sense for the system. It's a totally different skill.

But after a couple of years, there's going to be some routine this to it. There's going to be some training. There's going to be consistency. The job you had next is going to look like the previous job. Lots of this is. So all I'm making a point is that you need to cross the threshold to stay modern because things are changing. But I don't want to send the point that for the next 30 years, you're going to be on this merit round. That's going to spin faster and faster and faster. And then you're just going to have to run off the merit round and go vomit in the corner. That's not

at all what I'm suggesting. I'm just saying that right now is the moment when, if you love building, you have to stay current because you will be happier and you will be more relevant. And if you don't love building, you have to recognize the industry is moving away from you. That is the key point. And I don't think there's a person that's looking at the current way of building product. I don't think there's a person that's been on this podcast that would disagree with that statement. That is a really empowering point to make there that this is not forever, that it's a couple of

years, potentially, maybe, I don't know, could be a little bit longer, but it's not a forever thing where you have to do this. You have to lock in and, and sacrifice forever. It's a, this is the moment to, to get on the rocket, to get on the ship. I don't know. It's an honest, the boat, whatever metaphor you want to use, whatever transportation. So I think that makes, that would make me feel better. I think the other, the good, again, just to remind people like this, you know, there's a, it sucks to have to change the good, as you shared earlier, comp has never been higher. There's a lot of open roles. People

that are embracing this are having a lot of fun. Like you're like most PMs are sitting there all day waiting for stuff to happen, waiting for meetings and approvals and all this alignment and all this PR reviews. And now it's like, you can ship stuff so often. Like there's so much good that is happening. Maybe just remind us again of anything else there, just to inspire people to like, okay, this is worth it. I think let's go to the individual you're describing. There's someone who's sitting, who's really afraid. Who's a builder. Who's like, man, my job is changing so rapidly and I'm so nervous. And I have to think through what's my career going

to look like. But I tend to ask the question, like, do you really love your day? Like if you put green, yellow, and red next to the meetings you had and did that for a week, and then we looked at the color chart, I'll bet you the vast majority of, of PMs that are in a product organization, they show mostly yellow and red. And I'm telling you the ones that are moving into more of this build mode, it's mostly green and yellow. And, and, and that yet, yet most of them are sitting very, very afraid feeling stuck. So what I'm suggesting is how do you then transition mentally and then physically into a moment of going

from this moment of fear and being on the sidelines to being in the game? What I have noticed, and this is sort of a big kind of surprise to me is there is a moment where they experience the first joy in using the new tools. Everyone has a story and it's always different, but it's super personal. It's going to be like, oh, I was doing it a certain way. And then all of a sudden I built this thing. And oftentimes it's like my partner and I use this app that I built, or I built a chief of staff app to keep track of my inbox. Or I now manage, you know, the lights in my house using this thing. And it's some silly thing. And

usually at companies with the story, like, and I stayed up all night, or I spent a bunch of time talking to my friends or, or, or, or, or, or hacking away, or I just spent time talking to Claude about it. You know, even my wife has a story about how she has this business that she's thinking through. And she went from using the AI to, you know, do business plan to actually do test market. And everyone has this moment of joy. And then they're like, hook, it's like, uh, they're, they caught a bug. And at that moment is when they cross the threshold between fear to joy and joy is the biggest antidote

to burnout. And it creates opportunity because the moment you have joy, the moment it doesn't feel like work. And I think most product management feels like work if you're not building. And we are now moving into a world where product management will be building and joy, not work. So you just need to find a path to get there. And the moment you do your, the rest of your human psyche creates time. Doesn't feel like you're disappointing others and builds energy because people have more energy than they realize. They're just so exhausted by the monotony of what was defined as product management.

And so that is the number one piece of advice is have you found joy? Now there's a class of person who's like, none of this is joyful. Like I find the whole thing to be kind of boring, nauseating. I don't really like it. I'm like, well, then you're probably not in for the next version of our industry. You know, and, and you should be respectful of that and you should be honest with yourself. But there's a lot of product people that are right now, very anxious that actually are going to be happier once they cross the chasm and all they need to do is find a way to create that moment of joy.

You know, whether that's an app on their side or the app at your work. And if you're a leader listening to this, you should find those moments of joy in your staff because that's contagious and it gets people excited. And that's what, you know, that's why I like doing what I do is like, I like building stuff and I caught the bug and you know, I'm all there all the time. And, you know, I, I try to find TV shows that I can vibe code in parallel to because I want to watch TV, but I want to be vibe coding at the same time. What's a good show? What's a good show for my coding? I think, well, I, I, a lot of the Amazon prime shows are good.

That's not a knock on Amazon prime, but they're built on books. You know, these books are like, they're like structured and all that. So, you know, Alex cross or, you know, Jack Ryan, you know, what's hilarious is, uh, and you know, when you get older, you stop, you, you remember shows that you love, but you don't remember the plot. So one time I just binge watch a season of 24, the show that I loved went back in the day, but frankly, I watched it and I kind of knew what was going on, but I vibe coded the whole time because it was like, Hey, I'm paying attention here, but I'm staying engaged.

Well, let's actually follow this thread. Just like what's, what's it, what's your AI stack? What are you using to build? And what, what are something, what is, what's something you built and something you've I've coded? I kind of am pretty all in on Claude these last three months. I was, uh, for a month, pretty aggressive on codex, um, because I found some of their newer stuff to be, especially the, with, with sort of the highest level of reasoning to be, to be quite advanced. I find it hard to switch between tools. So I try to standardize to be, to be direct. Like the things

that I build, I build a bunch of web properties for my community. So, you know, anytime I see something that I can obsolete in code, I try to build code around it. So if you had a hundred people, one natural thing you want people to do is to meet each other. And you know, a hundred people can't meet 99 other areas. So it's, it's, you have to be thoughtful around who's the best person to meet and how do you match people up? How do you make sure that you match people with people they haven't met before? You know, what are their haves or their wants? That entire thing used to be me sitting down

and thinking like, oh, you know, Jay Z would really appreciate meeting Annie, but I don't know if they've met before. Now I write software to do that. I write an agent that goes in and actually does matching. I write an agent to figure out, Hey, what are all the jobs that my head of products are hiring? How do we make sure that we make those available, but then build a mailing list of folks who I think when they're interested in work can get matched up automatically. So like the next generation of recruiting. I think a lot about using AI for content. So when I sit down, I have an AI that takes questions

from people and then it's trained on my content like yours and it gives answers, but then I read those questions, evaluate the answers. And I'm like, Hey, this is a theme I'm hearing. And then I sit down and I write down when do the LLMs and I disagree, I go through. And so all of these things are, are anything that I'm doing that I think I can, you know, replicate. I try to obsolete myself. You know, when I first started my first job, I asked the best engineer that I work with, who still is one of the best engineers I've ever met. What, what's the, what's the definition of a great engineer. And,

you know, I thought it would be like, Oh, someone who's got this degree or is well-versed in this technology stack. He's like, well, the best engineer I know is my dad. And of course this is before tech in that case. And he's like, and my dad's definition is still my favorite, which is an engineer, someone who obviously some cells from everything they do. That's the definition of a great engineer. And I've taken that to every job that I've worked at. And it's funny because you'll run into people that are like, I don't know. I don't want to obsolete myself. That's my job. And I was like,

ah, I think if I obsolete, there'll be a better job for me. What AI has done is turned that, you know, has basically put an APAL on that. It's like, if you can, if you can obsolete by just asking the AIs to do this for you. So why I'm saying that is I'm, my stack is what can I do to obsolete anything and everything I do on a daily basis. That is super cool. I love to, I love hearing these stories. Like what I find is the best tactic here is just solve your own problem. Think about some, this is not great in your day to day or something you just want to improve and just like, and it's

like, it sounds so easy. All you do is go to, I don't know, lovable or install cloud code, download codex and just tell it, I want to build the dashboard to control my Sonos. And then it just tells you, it like walks you through everything you need to explore. And that's, that's a pretty advanced thing to try, but it's just like English. Like, it sounds like I have no, no, how to do this. Like you just tell it, here's what I want to do. Just like a person and it helps you figure it out. And well, and I, I agree with you. And then I think the question is like, what skill do you have to have? Like for a while I was like, oh, that's a systems engineering skill

because you need to be able to like train, you know, the AI is to go after things. But I'm watching my wife and how she works and she's not an engineer by any means. And she's getting tons of value. You don't even need to be an engineer. You just have to be opinionated and what you want to see. And know what you want. Yeah. And know what good looks like. And then the moment that you get it, it's when the light bulb turns on when it wasn't working before. And now you sit down and there's this moment where it's like, Hey, I used to have to go and work to do this, but now my agent's doing this.

And then what's the next agent I could do to make my life a little bit better. And that's where you catch the bug. It's such a powerful thought that your job can be much more joyful as a product manager as any function, but you know, we're focusing on PMs. Just like if you look at your pie chart today of how much, how happy you are during the day, you can actually be much happier in this future. And I think that's hard for people to like, really think, just realize, oh, wow. Okay. I can actually love this job so much more. I did not imagine that. Yeah. And I think that it's because you're

staring at change. And I think change is such an alarm bell. It's hard to hear the voice that says the thing that you are changing or the things you don't love because change is so hard for us that it's so scary, you know, and I, I respect that. So I think that if your listeners are able to sort of understand that, Hey, there is a world, which is better, but I have to go through the tunnel and the tunnel sucks. And the tunnel may mean that I'm going to have to change jobs. I mean, my prediction is the vast majority of people that are listening to this will be in a different job in the next five

years, because they will either choose to move to something because they will, that company will struggle to stay modern. Just like we're describing people need to stay modern companies need to stay modern or their companies are going to be shedding and re and re returning off staff. And so because change is apparent, I think it's just so deafening that people are very much gun shy to be, uh, excited about something that's forced on them. And, you know, let's be honest, it's been forced on everyone and it's not something that they chose. So that that's why I have a lot of empathy. But when I talk to

people, I try to dig through, forget what's happened and you know, why, how do we make the best out of it? And the best it's pretty good. So say we've convinced the listener. Okay. I need to make a change. I need to lean into this. I need to take this seriously. I can't just sit back and hope it all works out. Okay. And then they maybe found a moment of joy. They built something that's super cool. And just like, Hey, check this out. What other advice do you have for folks listening to help them to serve? I don't know. Let's not say survive, but just like thrive in this future that is emerging for

product. Yeah. I like thrive. I definitely think that you, you know, you find that moment of joy, you have the engineering mindset, which is, Hey, I want to obsolete myself on something that I do today. Again, reduce my, the less joyful parts of my job is a good starting point. I think that, you know, you have to find ability to increase pace. You know, this is not a job. This is the next two years requires a lot of, um, fire in the belly, a lot of agency that I know everyone talks about. So for example, if you were to leave a job and start a new job, you probably don't view the new

job year one at the same pace that you, you know, viewed your, your five and your last job, you need to kind of bring it. If you have a new relationship, you know, and if you've come off of a long-term relationship, my suspicion is your first year of that relationship, you put your best foot on. This is what I'm asking. You got to find that reserve. You've got to make time. You've got to maybe disappoint others in a way that you haven't in the past in order to create time for you to stay current, find that joy, obsolete yourself from the things that are, are not worth it. I think the other thing you have to do is you have to swallow your ego.

You know, I don't want a single person saying, Hey, I was a X, Y, Z leader. I would only consider roles at that same level. I want people. This is an extension of our last conversation is not only is it in vogue to be hands-on and I see it's kind of a necessity. I need everyone to sort of say, look, if everything's changing, it doesn't matter what we've done in the past. That brand doesn't matter. As we discussed, you have to have an ego list perspective of how to stay current and you would be not only willing, but actually look for ways to even take something smaller in order to make sure that you're kind of going through the tunnel correctly. And then

ultimately part of the way we, we, we swallow that ego is you stay long-term focused. You say, look, if the way we build product is changing so aggressively, my job is to spend the next couple of years being on the boat. That's, you know, leaving the station and going to the new world. Once I get to the new world, the cream rises to the top. I'll take my skills, my leadership, and I'll go through it. By the next few years, if everything's changing, I definitely want to be, you know, current. And that means you have to have a long-term focus. You know, my property is called the

skip, but the community and everything. They all kind of come down to this word called the skip. And I chose that word because the best career advice is always not thinking about the next move, but the move after what's the skip job. What's the skip opportunity. Well, in this world, it's not about what's the opportunity now and what's the journey. It's about making sure that your skip opportunity is saved and you are able to get that high salary. You're able to get one of those premier builder jobs. And that's the world that you have to have and the mindset you have to have. A. Something you mentioned earlier was really interesting that in the next five years, you

predict that most people's jobs will be very different. What are you imagining there? Like, will there still be this product manager role? Will PMs need to move closer to engineering? What's kind of like the Venn diagrams or a spectrum you're seeing of where current PMs may go? Will PMs need to move closer to engineering? Yeah. I definitely think that there's a world where PMs go to every industry as the, what I would call the agents of change. Because the PMs are the ones that can talk. They're the ones that have the broadest view of the organization, but they look at it through

the technical lens. And my hope is that most of our PMs are the first to the tools and hence they're the change agents within their company. So let's just play this out in the next year. We start to see all these product organizations changing the way they build product. And all of a sudden the way we build product is gentrified and really, really thoughtful and really far along. And then 12 months later, the marketing, the sales organization, the HVAC company that was bought by the private equity firm, the school down the road, you know, everything's like, boy, we are just not up. We're not current. We're going to get obsolete. Who do we bring in to be in charge of this

change? Well, you know, this person works in the future. We need to get to future. So I'm like really bullish that product leaders are going to be like, you know, like those like dandelion, whatever you call it seeds when you blow it and they just go everywhere. I have that vision. Meanwhile, I think a lot of people going into product might be coming from design, might be coming from data science, might be coming from engineering because the ones that have judgment, the ones that can talk, the ones that want to stay current, they might be like, well, I don't necessarily want to just stay in

my lane. I want, I have a point of view as to how this should work. You know, as you said, from a designer point of view, designers may have a lot of those skills and opinions on what it should look like. Maybe their platform won't be the pixels or the visuals. They will be the product itself and they can adjacent and they move into product. So I think you're going to see this crazy influx and then this amazing, ex, you know, kind of exodus. And then you'll also see folks that are like, Ooh, I don't know if I can get in. So I know that's a confusing, uh, kind of set of three changes, but that's explains why so

many people have anxieties. All three of these are happening instantaneously. There's a line. They thought they buried us. They didn't know that we were seeds that I think about. I love that. We're into a lot of the darker.

Speaking of that, there's this hilarious tweet that just came out the other day that I have here where this guy describes the only four jobs that will remain in the future. Uh, so the only four jobs that will exist in the future. One is product engineer, vibe coder, PM slop cannon. Number two is security SRE infra person. Uh, number three is hot people, which is like, you know, like getting people to buyer stuff, customer service, kind of like people, the way they're scared. Remember there are many ways to be, I know that here's how they put it. Present that easy UX to the world is, is that category. And

then grownups, which is your point of just like adults. Yeah. So. Yeah. I think there's, I read that and I agree with that. I mean, I think the adults exist and I think anyone that's the top of their field that can talk and that's, that essentially is opinionated. I can go broad. That's kind of the third point of hot people. So that's actually, that reminds me. So a mold, the head of growth at Anthropic made this really interesting point that so much of his time now more and more is alignment as a product manager. And we were joking. What's the harder alignment problem, aligning people in

a company or like AI's AGI. And, and I, and it feels like that's like a remaining, and it's part of what you described, somebody that can get shit done, a change agent. And a big part of that is like what a PM often is doing a lot of their time is like creating alignment internally around what we will be doing, what we're purchasing, that kind of thing. Yeah. And I think that if you dissect what alignment looks like, a lot of alignment was getting people the right information, the ground level truth, that problem is dramatically better. That part of the job, frankly, just absolutely

sucked. Whether it was the status report or put, you know, I, I was on projects where there was like docs that were sent to me and then I would change the doc to then send it to my boss. And then that boss would send it to, you know, and it was just like this movement of information where the ground truth was buried in some part of the organization. And then there were like all these people that were putting on their spin that I think is changing. But to your point now, someone has to decide and someone has to have an opinion and what to fight for. And that conversation is now much clearer to

have, because you know, the ground truth, there's less spin, you know, the CEO can literally ask their agent, well, what is the situation? What is, how is this performing? What does this customer really want? You know, how does this affect the system? You know, is this really something that we want to change the product to enable? So that conversation can happen, but now people can like fight it out, you know, with, with, with real, with real credence. Right. And, and if you're a product person that, that really does have an opinion and wants to make a point, you, you have a forum. So alignment won't go away.

It's just, it's not going to have as much theatrics. And I think a lot of companies that are larger do have theatrics that I think the eyes are going to remove. And I don't know of many PMs. There's some that lived for the theatrics, but frankly, most of them are like, this just seems like a fricking waste of time. I mean, it's so telling that 80%, I bet you, this is a statement of 80%. If you truly asked their, you know, your PM, do you really want that boss's boss job? Would you want their day? Not the pay, not the credibility, not the stature, but do you want their block back to back meetings?

I bet you most of them would say no. And what I'm suggesting to you is that answer is going to change in the next two years. What's really also interesting is as much as this role is changing, engineering is changing even more. And in my, what I feel like is that the engineers that will continue to thrive are just, are basically going to become more PM-y because the coding part is now going to be solved. And now it's just, what should we build? Is this great? Is this the direction we want to go? Is this going to, what does success look like? So if you're like, oh, my job is changing, just imagine being an engineer right now and how crazy that must feel.

Yeah. And I think the one advantage that engineers have is they think in systems and they think, they think about obsolescence more effectively. So I think that, you know, when you make a change, you have to decide, is this change going to be sustainable in the product that you're offering? I think an engineer is an edge there. Mm-hmm . I think in the other edge they have is like, I bet you, we can build this to be more automated, to be simpler. I think those things. The mine already goes there. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that every one of us, like the product person probably has a little bit of an edge

in judgment and communication. The engineer is going to have a little bit of edge in the system scaling. And how does this change affect folks? The designer is going to have a little bit of an edge with taste and all of these things will still remain important. And you know, obviously people that have all of these will do better than those that have one or two, but the industry is more than safe as evidenced by your report that there's more hiring. And I think it's going to grow. It's just different class of individual. This is what we're trying to communicate. Uh, the design piece is really surprising to me. The fact that like there's data show that the number of

design roles is plateauing and just how teams are just not, uh, valuing design as much as you think, like you would think that design becomes much more important as the number of products grows exponentially. That it's like a way to stand out, to build something really beautiful and, and, and have a really thought through experience. And it's interesting that that's not happening right now. Also just, I've been thinking about like, like there's no world where I'm a great designer. I can't just like use AI and become a great designer. Unlike an engineer, like maybe a PM, I could become a much better PM with AI.

AI is knocking. Like it will, you know, do some cool stuff, but I'm not ever going to feel like I am a great designer now. So it's really interesting that design isn't more successful right now with the rise of AI. And it might be that we just don't know what to make of design in this era. You know, that might be a piece of it. The other piece might be just like there's product builders and then, you know, product, uh, you know, information movers and they're split up. I think that there are pixel generators and then there are tastemakers. And I worry that in design, maybe the industry itself conflates

design with more production and not with taste. And so I think there's a lot of companies that you would talk to. And even when they were hiring, how to design, they were thinking more around, we need more production and great designers are much more tastemakers. And I think that is probably that bias is entering into the hiring plans in this era that we have today. What a wild time we are living through Nikko. Holy, holy moly. Yeah. Isn't it funny that neither of us are operational. There are days when I'm like, man, am I so happy I have the time to work on this. And then other days that I think this is some of the

most interesting, like being operational right now is quite a ride. And so there's good, good and bad. And, you know, COVID wasn't easy. I mean, there was a lot of challenges around, you know, working and, seeing someone change. So there's always something, but this one, this one's, you know, everything's being questioned and, you know, including how you, how you define joy, which I think is just absolutely fascinating. Chaos is a ladder as, as the little finger famously said. Um, Nikko, is there anything that we haven't covered anything else that you think is important for people to hear any other advice, anything you want to double down on before we wrap up and get to a

very exciting lightning round? I would just say that there's a lot of room to be optimistic right now, but you have to find it within yourself to recognize that there is a small period of change and exhaustion that's required to find that moment of joy. And I just urge everyone to find those reserves to get there because once you do it's infectious, but the longer you wait, the harder it is to cross that chasm. And so I really want people to feel optimistic and find that moment of joy. But I also recognize that there is a lot of activation energy that it takes to get there. And so

my hope is that, you know, you, you've, and there's a lot of people going through it. And so, you know, there's some safety in numbers here, but definitely I urge everyone to try their hand at, at rethinking their craft. And just to be clear, you're seeing many people in the community doing well, enjoying this thriving, if this is possible. Yeah. It's smiling exhaustion. I see in my community, everyone, and before it was just exhaustion. So I take smiling exhaustion over exhaustion. Um, but the pace is relentless. I, I don't have any, uh, there's nothing I can say to sugarcoat that point.

What a time to be alive. Well, Nikhil with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? Go, go for it. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people? You know, Lenny, I'm not a reader. So I don't, you know, I don't, I, I, I hate to admit this, but I kind of vibe code instead of most consumption of code, right? Uh, content right now, you know, all of the reading I do is like trying to stay up to date. And that was a casualty, you know? So I don't listen to as many podcasts I want to,

I don't read as much as I want to. Um, because I have so much information coming from the agents that I have deployed and all the stuff that's going on with, you know, on, on Reddit and X and all that. So I, I don't have a great set of book suggestions, not unlike, you know, all your other, um, all your other guests that are great at this, you know, they, they read prolifically and, you know, I, I, I just don't, I mean, I'll tell you, I, I, I read, um, I, I don't know how much I loved it and I'll just leave it in here in case people are interested, but I read this book called James, which James is, um, the story of Huckleberry Finn told from, uh, Jim's point of view.

I thought that was absolutely fascinating because anytime you take a classic and then you look at it through the eyes of someone else. And what you realize is that story is quite powerful, but you know, very haunting. And when you read Huckleberry Finn, you're a kid. So the distinction between seeing the innocence as not only the book was written from twain's perspective, who was quite forward thinking by the way, but you remember you were a kid at the time. And now as an adult, you see the book from another angle. I thought that was interesting. I don't know if I'd recommend

it to your viewer readers, but I, I thought I always look for things that I'm, you know, uh, unnatural, um, stories that exist, you know, right in plain sight. So that was an example of that. I think somebody else has actually recommended that book. So that's the second mention. Uh, next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show? You've already shared some vibe coding favorites to be in the background. Anything else? Yeah. I mean, I think everyone's talking about paradise. I, I mean, if you haven't watched the season one and season two, it's season two out. I didn't realize that he's going to just

is almost wrapping up and I haven't watched season two yet, but you know, it's a little apocalyptic in nature, but it's absolute fascinating character drama about how, um, you know, how people deal with, you know, very, very challenging times. Uh, and what motivates individuals. The other one that I really like is lioness, which is on paramount plus, um, lioness is a story, uh, really about, uh, sort of a covert CIA group and how they deal with, you know, protecting security for America and the importance and what it means to commit to a bigger cause. I thought that was a really well written show.

So both of those I recommend, I do watch a ton of television in, uh, and, and as I mentioned, I, I vibe code to certain shows and these two, I don't live code too. Cause I have to pay attention. That's the ultimate. That's the new bar. If something's great. Okay. Do you have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love? Could be an app, could be some gadget, could be some, something else. My favorite product that I've discovered of late might be, um, kind of obvious to a lot of folks, but, uh, I, um, you know, I'm not a car guy, so I'll just start by saying

that though I've, um, enjoyed kind of writing like the newer electric cars. I just, I'm not, there's a large, large number of people that love cars. They love driving cars and, you know, talking about cars and repairing cars. That's like the opposite of me. I just want my car to be super reliable. Um, and, uh, I've had a Tesla for a really long time, a model S for just a long time. And I've had it since pretty much they came out with them and they, uh, my daughter recently passed her driving exam. Um, and because she passed her driving exam, uh, one day my wife said, Hey, you know, we got to get

her a car. And I was like, we do, I never actually connected the dots that she's going to need to drive a car. And I was like, well, where's she going to go? And eventually I'm like, okay, maybe we should buy her a car, but she's not going to drive that much. Maybe I should use this as an opportunity to upgrade my car. And so I drove the latest Teslas that are out there and the ones with the, the self-driving and the self-driving works quite well, just to be clear. I mean, I I've have it now for the last month and about 95% of the time I self-drive, but the most interesting thing is I had no idea

that I actually have mild anxiety when I drive that goes away when I self-drive. And I had no idea. And I, my, my wife noticed it when we were driving up to the mountains one day and it was crazy snowing. And I'm like, we're going to do it. And she's like, you are so anxious when you drive. And I'm like, I am because Lenny, I've been driving since I was 14 years old. Cause I grew up in Kansas. And so I passed the test when you were, I was 14. So I've been driving literally for nearly 40 years. And I had no idea as I've gotten older that this pressing a button and going places and it's like,

it's just so awesome. So anyway, the reason why that experience is interesting. Yeah. There's the tech and all that. It's just like, I look for ways to reduce my anxiety, anything that causes anxiety. I try to eliminate at this point in my life. And this is one of them. So that's a cool product for me. I love that as a rule. I've also become all in on self-driving. I've had a Tesla for a long time from the beginnings of their explorations into self-driving. And it was always just like, I don't know, this is scary. And now it's the opposite. Like my wife prefers I self-drive, even though I drive well, she just like feel safer when the self-driving is on. And there's,

and there's this like, uh, in the actual settings, they give you a stat of what percentage you're driving a self-driving and they noted it since, uh, 14.2, I think it was the release, something like that. So that was like the release that everyone started being like, wow, it's actually very good now. And I don't think a lot of people realize that it's actually incredibly good. Like I haven't had a single concerning moment. This is one of those examples and product where so many people try the previous versions that when you then tell your friend, a lot of people have Tesla's obviously

in California, but across the world, when you tell your friends, a lot of people are like, oh yeah, I tried it. I turned it off. So I think Tesla's got this unusual challenge of getting people to turn it back on. And obviously the newer hardware is better than the older one and the new software. But once you go through one experience, it can be hard to convince someone to try it again. And that's an adage in product and certainly applies here. It's the downside of releasing early enough. And sometimes people just have this memory of what it might be. I feel like, I feel like this like Uber where you most have to just start hearing

about it from your friends telling you, Hey, I'm doing this thing. I'm like, wait, really? I guess I should try it. Yeah. Yeah. I figured. Yeah. They ought to just like, so here's a Tesla suggestion for anyone that's listening is Lenny and I should be able to gift 30 days free to our friends of self-driving people that have turned it off because the referral of that, that plus the endorsement allows people to experience it for free and then they can get their monthly subscription. Great idea. That viral plus enablement, I think is a growth technique that they can have for free from us.

Such a good idea. By the way, I love Mad Max mode. I love that just the personality of the stuff. Just, are you a hurry mode guy or are you a standard mode guy? I flip between them, but I do feel like I'm hoping that the new release of the software keeps us in lane. Like, I don't love it changing lanes, but it's like, where it's trying to hurry a little bit. I'm a, I wish I could just get it to go at a normal speed, but also don't change lanes. Cause I just don't like moving around. It's just, okay. Absolutely. Okay. Uh, next question. Do you have a favorite life motto that you find

yourself coming back to and work during life? Uh, my high school quote in my yearbook still is my motto, which is, uh, genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration, um, by Albert Einstein. It's, it's something that, um, even an early age and, you know, it's not about genius being capital G, you know, it wasn't a new year comment. It was more like hard work is really what matters in life. Uh, what's interesting is if you read that quote, genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration through the lens of AI. Right. It's absolutely fascinating. Cause it turns out the AI will do the perspiration. Unlimited perspiration. Quite literally.

So I think what we're leaning towards is we all need to, we're moving to a world where we're all going to be inspired and it's the inspired individuals and all of us that will, that will, you know, essentially continue to proliferate and don't worry about the perspiration, but recognize that it's, it is the perspiration that, that is, that is a necessity to make things go. So, um, anyway, I, I think it's an interesting quote, especially in today's era. Final question. People may have noticed that we've started collaborating on your podcast and your newsletter. It's this, it's such an underappreciated,

under, I don't know, seen, uh, thing that you do, this podcast, this newsletter, it fills such a gap in, in the content out there around product building of just like very tactical, important, non sugar-coated career advice for people in product. Um, and it's what I love about it is it's not AI most of the time, in spite of this conversation we just had, it's like very much like here's stuff you need to know, uh, that is not flashy and shiny AI, AI, AI all the time. So I want to give you a chance just to tell people about this, the podcast, the newsletter, just what, what the, what ideas were they, where they can find it.

I started this property called skip because I really felt that there was a dearth of content from operators sharing best practices with, uh, with emerging operators. And the idea was, look, I had been a founder before I had been an executive before, and I wanted to be in a position where I can say, Hey, this is exactly what I experienced. And this might apply to you. And I noticed that most of the podcasts and content out there were from folks that hadn't spent as much time and operating more time in content. And I was kind of the opposite. Then I started building this community that I spoke about last time, which was, you know, about 23 at the time. Now it's over 125

five head of products who are all kind of these builders top of their game and kind of reinventing what product management looked like. And our goal is to collectively share our wisdom as operators to help people advance in career. And that probably that calling is probably more important now than ever is everything's changing. Um, and so one of the things that we're launching next month, by the time that, you know, we end up launching this episode is something called skip dot help, where we have agents that have been trained on about 50 of our community leaders. And so you can go and

ask a question. It might be preparing for an interview. It might be a question around navigating your current environment. It might even be, you know, how do I build a chief of staff app and 50 of us, not just me will respond. Uh, and this is powered by our friends over at super me, which is a great startup that, um, that actually by having these ages, you get the sort of wisdom of the crowds. And so those are the things that I love. And, and obviously the community itself is a very, um, curated group and it's, you know, there's an infinite wait list. A lot of people want to be in it. I'm only growing it

slowly because I want to maintain trust, but I do have this mailing list called skip dot coach, where we share our wisdom to a broader audience. So, um, I know I've kind of gotten every single domain name that starts at skip skip community, skip shows, my podcast, skip coach, give help. But anyway, go to any of them and you can triangulate all of them. And I always appreciate Lenny, your, your support and your help and, and, and, and building this property with me. So it's been, it's been great. You know, when I came on, I don't think I had done my podcast yet. And now I'm about ready to hit my 50th episode and you're a big inspiration and you're, you're past

300 obviously. And so, um, you know, it's fun to see, uh, how things change and then some, somehow have, how things happen. So it's been great. So fun. Uh, I was gonna ask you to show the domains, which you did. So it's skip dot coach, skip that community, skip dot show. And then there's skip help is their new one, skip that help, which is launching around the time this goes out. And then you also have your sub stack. I don't know if one of those takes you there, but it's the skip dot sub stack.com. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. The skip is the name of the podcast and newsletter and skip show takes us to both. Mikael, thank you so much for being here. This

was exactly what it was helping. I feel like people are gonna leave this being like, okay, I get it now. I understand what I need to be doing. I appreciate that. And, you know, thanks for all you do for the community and for, uh, all the guests that, um, that, you know, you, you still have now probably two dozen of the folks on skip that have been on the show or that will be on the show. So thanks for supporting, uh, all of our efforts. We're trying to help as many product builders as possible. And that's a great journey to be on together. It is. Mikael, thank you so much for being here. Thanks, Lenny. Thanks everyone. Bye everyone.

Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's podcast.com. See you in the next episode.